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DIY Sprayed on Insulation (Tiger or HandiFoam)

NWOhioChevyGuy

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OK, I did the search and didn't find anyone that has used this stuff.

This is more for my house than garage but if I like the stuff I might use it on the under side of my attic room in the garage.

http://www.tigerfoam.com/

What I am looking to do is spray the boxing on my mid 1800's brick home to seal it up from cridders and drafts. What I would do is spray 1" on underfloor across boxing / joist then 1-2" onto the foundation wall.

Has anyone used this stuff? It would only cost me around $350 to do the whole house. I was thinking it would cost me around a $1000 to have it done professionally.:beer:

The two companies I listed in the title I think are the same one just packaged differently. They both have a Doctor Foam that you email questions to and the email is the same. LOL

Thanks
Keith
 
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mhoffm911

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Do a search for "spray foam" and you will see a couple previous posts on this subject.
 

sctattooer

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That stuff will work great on the boxing, and all around the foundation. Most homes built in the 1800s were "balloon framed". No top or bottom plate on the walls. I'd also suggest going into the attic and sealing any openings along the tops of walls, outside walls and inside walls. You'd be amazed at what a difference this can make. Walls that are open at the top act like a chimney, heated air is generated into the walls because the gap between the wall is colder than the room, then it just shoots up to the attic, where it's lost. If your attic is insulated, which I hope it is, spend some time pushing the insulation back and looking for gaps. It's one of the biggest reasons for heat loss on and old home, and the payback is noticeable immediately.

It's the perfect stuff for that, however I wouldnt use it for newer construction. First off, it's quite flammable, it breaks down over time to a powdery substance (10 years or so). Also, tests on this stuff have proven that since it cures so rapidly, it actually draws moisture out of wood framing, sometimes causing framing to warp or buckle.

Any other info you might need let me know, besides being a tattooist I'm also a certified energy auditor.
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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Thanks Sctatooer,

I've just started to do upgrades to this grand old home, in addition to tightening it up draft wise I am looking to do a geothermal heat pump. Next year when I do the new roof I will inspect the top of the brick walls as you suggested. It will be much easier with the lid off, if you know what I mean, attics are small and seem well insulated with blown cellulose.

Thanks
Keith
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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I'm sure that it's more cost effective than contracting someone to come in and do that small project for me. Plus I can't find anyone in the area that does the work.

What other material options do I have for sealing those uneven surfaces up to drafts and vermin?
Not anything I can think of.

Keith.
 

HoosierBuddy

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It's the perfect stuff for that, however I wouldnt use it for newer construction. First off, it's quite flammable, it breaks down over time to a powdery substance (10 years or so). Also, tests on this stuff have proven that since it cures so rapidly, it actually draws moisture out of wood framing, sometimes causing framing to warp or buckle.

Any other info you might need let me know, besides being a tattooist I'm also a certified energy auditor.


Are you saying that all of that new spray-in foam is suspect, or just the Tiger Foam. I know of people paying up to $20,000 to have their new home spray foamed, rather than using fiberglass batting, because they installers say it is much much much better than batting. Is that claim suspect? This is the first I've heard about the stuff breaking down. I thought it was supposed to last the life of the structure.

Inquiring minds want to know!

Phil
 

sctattooer

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Hi Phil,
It'll be difficult to answer your question without making sure you understand exactly what insulation does, and how it works. Hopefully, in the process, it'll help people make a more informed decision on what will work best for them.

Having worked in the residential energy field for years, I can confidently say that all cyanurates will break down over time. Never be sold on what the sales rep tells you, their job, after all, is to sell a product. That's not the important issue, however. All insulations have major drawbacks that the consumer is unaware of.


Residential energy, 101:
The concept of residential energy is always based on heat loss. Warm air is always drawn to colder air. I cant tell you how many homes I've visited homes where the owner complained about drafts, and always blamed the windows, because people see the windows as the opening in a sealed box. This is true in only a very small percentage of situations. Often, drafts are caused by gaps in the thermal barrier, or insulation. If it's cold on one side of a wall, warm air will be drawn to it. Since we know that warm air rises, it travels up from the heat source and is drawn to the colder wall, creating a circular pattern of airflow in the room. If there is even a small gap in the insulation of a wall, the warm air will travel faster to reach the cold air, and create a draft that you can actually feel, running across your feet as you watch TV. I know this is irrelevant to your question, but humor me, and I'll get there.


Fiberglass insulation is the insulation of choice, however, if the wall that the insulation is in is not completely sealed, fiberglass acts only as an air filter. This is why we always tape and mud our sheet rock joints, but what about the outside? Do they always glue or caulk the sheathing to seal the wall from air movement? what about the gap between the sheets, if it's mounted horizontally? A simple 1/8" gap in the sheathing across a wall can reduce fiberglass's resistance value by as much as 38%. For outside walls, the best choice would be dense-packed cellulose, as it seals all the gaps as it's packed into the walls. Not to mention that it's completely fireproof in this state. (We've tested and tested this, trust me on this one) Plus, the denser it's packed, the less the chance of settling and getting gaps at the top of the wall, common with fiberglass. The drawback of cellulose? Moisture. If moisture gets into your wall, the cellulose will hold the moisture, and the wall will rot.

I bet you wont find a sales rep for fiberglass or cellulose that even knows of these problems. both of these products do their intended jobs well, under the right circumstances. Now, about cyanurates.

Spray foam insulation is comprised of a chemical called polyisocyanurate, the same stuff you can buy in sheets to put up behind your vinyl siding. There are 2 types, closed cell and open cell. The stuff in sheets is always closed cell, which is why when you cut it, it's smooth, with no air pockets. Spraying the foam means it has to be mixed, and in the mixing process air is introduced, resulting in open "cells" or air bubbles in the mix. Take a can of Great Stuff from Lowe's, spray a bit of it and let it dry, then cut it, you'll see hundreds of small air bubbles throughout it. These are voids in the thermal barrier. while it will seal air well, it wont have a very good resistance.


Another problem with sprayed insulation is that it shrinks. Yes, while it's wet, it expands like crazy, but, as with any chemical reaction such as paint, chemicals are released into the atmoshpere in the curing process through evaporation. This causes shrinkage during curing. Remember those 1/8" gaps I mentioned before? Most contractors would consider an 1/8" gap acceptable, but if that gap runs alongside your studs due to shrinkage, you could multiply the gap x the number of studs....... you get the picture.

The average lifespan for cyanurates is about 10 years. Find a house with vinyl siding that's 10 years old, and pull off the bottom run of siding, and cut out a small piece of the foam backer. Squeeze it in your hand, and it instantly turns to powder. You can imagine how distraught you'd be if you found out that your house doesnt heat well after 10 years, especially if you knew that you had to remove all that stuff from the walls to get it right again.

As far as their sales pitch that it's much much better, well, using the above information as a guide, it has it's advantages. It's moisture resistant, seals gaps in airflow situations, and it does provide a comparative R value. It's biggest downfall? Longetivity.

I hope this helps a bit, my fingers are tired, and I need a beer. :beer:
 

Flip37

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So I'm just trying to learn here, but what your sayin is that people that have insulated their entire house with spray in insulation or only even a part of it will have to redo it in 10 or so years? I watch that Holmes on Homes show quite a bit and it seems he loves the stuff and I thought he was pretty smart. Of course TV can make anyone look smart.
 

sctattooer

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I really doubt anyone would actually redo it after 10 years, simply because people dont understand how energy efficiency works. Without proper testing equipment, like a blower door unit or infrared camera, most people wouldnt even know there was a problem, except for feeling drafts and paying more to heat the place.
Ironically, these are the kind of people who's homes I've tested, and thought their windows were bad. You literally have to prove it to them that the problem is inside the walls. Back in the 1700's people dumped corncobs down their walls for insulation, and if you told them that the house wasnt insulated properly, they'd argue that it was insulated very well.
I'd be very interested in a show that taught only energy efficiency, without product sponsors. I think people should know why homes up north get ice jambs on the roof and such, and I'd highly recommend anyone buying a home to find a certified energy auditor to properly test a home before the purchase. I think it's as important as a building inspection. (Which, by the way, is usually done by an inspector only trained in codes, they seldom know as much about structural integrity as they should)
 

kamkuda

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sctatttooer, Thanks so much for the great information. This is Stuff I did not know and will remember now!
 

arbee

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sctattooer,

I've been thinking of having an energy audit / blower door testing done on my house. Is this worthwhile? How much do companies charge to do this?
 
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sctattooer

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Yes, it's very worthwhile. Most electric companies have an energy auditor that'll come out to your home for free, check out your appliances, and give you a list of things you can do to lower your electric costs, but this isnt a real energy audit. A true auditor will give you a sheet showing the ACH/hr*, and his recommendations for reduction. You'd be surprised, when I was doing it full time, the average homes that we audited and weatherized showed as much as a 32% reduction in energy costs. Multiply that over 10 years' time! A good energy audit should take about 4 hours to do, and they'll crawl under the house, into the attic, and check things you'd never think to check, and it usually averages about 500 bucks.


*ACH/hr is short for air changes per hour, or the amount of times per hour your heating system has to reheat the entire volume of air in the house.
 

IDASHO

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When my wife and I purchased he home we are in right now, I had a sneaky suspicion that we might wind up living here for a LOT longer than the past few homes that we have lived in.

Before the purchase, I spent over $1k on a full blown home inspection. Top to bottom, front to back. One feature included an infrared energy inspection. Ill tell you what.... I was over his shoulder the entire time, and that little $15k infrared camera was AWESOME! Accurate to 1/10 of a degree, and could even see our REFLECTIONS in the windows:wtf:

It showed me every single spot we had energy loss issues. Which would have otherwise been overlooked in a routine inspection. As we went thru, I took gobs of notes, indicating which receptecle boxes needed caulked, which rooms had disturbed insulation in the attic, which windows were suspect, etc.

Best $1k Ive ever spent. :thumbup:
 

PAToyota

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SCTattooer: You make some valid points about urethane insulations that seem to be glossed over by the "green" marketing campaigns that tout them as the wave of the future. Have you encountered this product - www.airkrete.com - and do you have any thoughts on it? Although it has a lower R-value than the initial R-value for urethane, it has the potential to be a longer lasting product and would have the sealing capabilities of a foam.
 

HoosierBuddy

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from the air crete site

Q. Is there really an energy crisis?
A. While it is unpleasant to admit, the energy crisis is an undeniable fact of life. We are depleting our non-renewable fossil fuels at an incredible rate. We import about 40% of our oil at exorbitant prices, and we are now faced with skyrocketing cost of natural gas. Conservation of energy is far and away the safest, cheapest and most environmentally sound way to combat the energy crisis.

Anyone that would start their FAQ with that bit of dis-information is not a reliable company IMHO. At present rates, the known reserves of Natural Gas in the U.S. will last for 84 years. However, in each of the last 16 years more reserves have been added than have been used. And, prices (here) are on a downward trend, not an upward one.

I'm all for saving energy, but let's not be Chicken Little about all of this.

Phil
 

PAToyota

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Whether the "crisis" is due to depleted resources or other factors, I'd say that the increases in costs for whatever reason sort of makes it a crisis one way or another...

Of course, then marketing gets a hold of things...
 

sctattooer

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Pat, thanks for the link. I'll do some research on this stuff over the next few days and give you my opinion. What I find quite interesting is that this product has a density of 2.07 lbs/cu ft +/- 6% and has an R value of 3.9 per inch. Not a very high density, considering that properly blown dense pack cellulose has a density of 3.74 lbs/cu ft. While the R value is roughly equivalent to that of fiberglass, the density leads me to believe that this product may not be any more effective than fiberglass at infiltration issues. I'm not finding much on the site regarding shrinkage/drying, but this seems to be an issue that the foam companies dont want to discuss.

Comp- I never said junk. Most energy related upgrades on a structure are based on a heating cost saving, based on the cost of the upgrade, over a 10 year period. Anything you do that's cost effective to reduce your energy loss will pay for itself several times over during a 10 year span. Longetivity is the key issue here, but only considering how tough of a job it would be to strip the walls to replace all the insulation, and how costly that would be, is the reason I jumped in here.

All insulations have downfalls. Fiberglass has a tendency to release from the backing paper over time, causing it to settle in the wall and leave a void at the top. When your shingled roof meets it's lifespan, it's much simpler to replace than your insulation is. I think the insulation in a home is by far more important than any other part of the home, as it bears a great significance on how much comes out of your pocket month after month, year after year. And I believe that people should seriously research what type of insulation would work best for them, and be provided with all the factors to base that decision on.

And Phil, I'd like to discuss with you the questions you asked, but the typing could kill me. :) I sent you m phone # in PM, give me a call.
 

sctattooer

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Another thing I found interesting is that the product that Pat mentioned, Air Krete, boasts a shrinkage rate of 0.0%, tested according to ASTM:L C951, however, according to the ASTM library, there is no such standard. Marketing hype? Say it aint so.
 

mpraddict

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scaattooer, aren't SIPs (structural insulated panels) made with this same material in their core? Are you saying people who have used this type of construction should expect panel failures?
 

sctattooer

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I dont think this thread intended to be a review for each type of insulation out there, I was merely presenting facts that most people dont know about differing types of insulations. The best advice I could give is go to Amazon.com and look for books by John Krigger. John is the guru of energy conservation, and I was directly certified through him. I learned a lot from John, and most energy codes throughout the US were created from his extensive research. I think you'll find that John's opinion of cyanurates are very much like mine, very effective, but they do turn to powder over time. Of course, some people buy a new house every 10 years or so, but sooner or later people accept their house as being as efficient as it can be.
 
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