What guage wire for Miller 211 welder?

[Rick98Z]

Just purchased a Millmatic 211 mig welder for the garage. I am trying to figure out what elec to run to the breaker box. The manual states normal operating fuse as 35 and to use 14ga wire min. I also have an old lincoln stick welder I will be running off same outlet at times. I already have purchased a 50A breaker for my panel box. Is this too much?

The run from the panel to the outlet will be just shy of 30'...can I use 10/3 wire or should I use 8/3??? Thanks for the input as well, I have been searching online with mixed reviews of what to use!

 

[Buckgnarly]

Just purchased a Millmatic 211 mig welder for the garage. I am trying to figure out what elec to run to the breaker box. The manual states normal operating fuse as 35 and to use 14ga wire min. I also have an old lincoln stick welder I will be running off same outlet at times. I already have purchased a 50A breaker for my panel box. Is this too much?

The run from the panel to the outlet will be just shy of 30'...can I use 10/3 wire or should I use 8/3??? Thanks for the input as well, I have been searching online with mixed reviews of what to use!

I used 8, but I always err on the safe side. What I did wind up doing was a really short run from the box to the outlet (like 1'), then put the extra money toward some 6/3 SJ to make a 25' extension.

I use the **** out of that extension now, even whne doing work at other people's houses.

 

[Rick98Z]

Thanks for the unput! We purchased a 50' ft extension from the welding supply co., I didn't even think to look at what guage it was. I just told em I needed an extension and he grabbed it. I could probable shorten the length from the box to the outlet. But I had still planned on using 8 to be on the safe side...I just wanted to make sure it sounded feasible. A friend on mine said 10 would be plenty but I usually try to go the extra mile

 

[Aceman]

Thanks for the unput! We purchased a 50' ft extension from the welding supply co., I didn't even think to look at what guage it was. I just told em I needed an extension and he grabbed it. I could probable shorten the length from the box to the outlet. But I had still planned on using 8 to be on the safe side...I just wanted to make sure it sounded feasible. A friend on mine said 10 would be plenty but I usually try to go the extra mile

If it's not far and you don't care, I'd run #8. Leaves you a little wiggle room in case something bigger goes in later...

 

[Rick98Z]

Yeah I am going to do the 8/3...that is what the extension cord I bought was also. I have reduced the length of the run from 30' down to 12' to save buying that much extra cord since the 50' extension will get me around the garage fine! Thanks for the input everyone

 

[Rick98Z]

Ok...just to make sure I am following this right...the 8/3 wire that I am using has a red,black,white, and then bare copper wire. The red, black, and white would attach to the actual receptacle, and then the bare copper ground would attach with screw to the metal gang box? The bare copper is what is confusing me...

 

[trbomax]

I used 8, but I always err on the safe side. What I did wind up doing was a really short run from the box to the outlet (like 1'), then put the extra money toward some 6/3 SJ to make a 25' extension.

I use the **** out of that extension now, even whne doing work at other people's houses.

number 1 on what he says except make the extension long enough to reach anywhere in the shop you may need it. I have 2 25' extensions so that I can go outside and weld if needed.


edit) ignore the bare copper,you dont need it.

 

[Zengineer]

I've used #8 on my 35' extension cord, but I know it's overkill for my loads... Perfect.

 

[Racecarl]

The wire charts I looked at for 50 amps called for #6 copper so that is what I ran. I have a Miller 251 and a Lincoln 225 buzz box and I made separate 50A circuits for each. My welders require a different receptacle so that is the main reason I did separate circuits. My outlets are pretty close to the panel box, so I ended up buying about 15' of white and 30' of black, all THHN wire. Since I don't use the buzz box very often, I intend to use the outlet intended for the Lincoln welder to run my future plasma cutter.

I made a 30' extension cord several years ago, and I believe (without looking at it) that there are 3 #8cu wires in it. Since my shop is only 24 X 30, the cord will allow me to reach anywhere I need inside and outside onto the driveway, since the overhead door is also close to the welder receptacles,

 

[Norcal]

The wire charts I looked at for 50 amps called for #6 copper so that is what I ran. I have a Miller 251 and a Lincoln 225 buzz box and I made separate 50A circuits for each. My welders require a different receptacle so that is the main reason I did separate circuits. My outlets are pretty close to the panel box, so I ended up buying about 15' of white and 30' of black, all THHN wire. Since I don't use the buzz box very often, I intend to use the outlet intended for the Lincoln welder to run my future plasma cutter.

I made a 30' extension cord several years ago, and I believe (without looking at it) that there are 3 #8cu wires in it. Since my shop is only 24 X 30, the cord will allow me to reach anywhere I need inside and outside onto the driveway, since the overhead door is also close to the welder receptacles,

Why are you using white colored conductors on a 240V circuit?

 

[theoldwizard1]

The wire charts I looked at for 50 amps called for #6 copper so that is what I ran.

+1 !

Wire size is related to both load and more importantly breaker size. If your using a 50A breaker you need #6. If you down grade the breaker to 40A, then you can use #8.

You want the breaker to trip BEFORE the wire gets hot enough to melt the insulation !

 

[Rick98Z]

Ok so if I am not going use one of the wires, is it really 8/2 or 6/2 wire that I need to purchase? The extension cord the guy sold me says its 8/3...that is what is confusing me on the receptacle hook up...

 

[Norcal]

Ok so if I am not going use one of the wires, is it really 8/2 or 6/2 wire that I need to purchase? The extension cord the guy sold me says its 8/3...that is what is confusing me on the receptacle hook up...

The grounding conductor is not counted in NM cable, but it is in a flexible cord.

 

[Rick98Z]

Ok, I understand now...So I can certainly do 8/2 NM cable from the receptacle to breaker right? Is there any reason to try and use 8/3 NM? What would be the upgraded benefits of it if I only use this dedicated receptacle for welder or compressor?

 

[TOOL MASTER]

see what you have coming into the house...some of these damn contractors are such cheap asses...they wire up house to the minimum..you may only have 8 coming in....you turn on a tv and all the lights go dim..12 ga should be the minimum wiring for any house, not this 14 ****..

 

[Rick98Z]

Well this is connecting to the 100A service I ran to my detached garage off my 200A Box in the house...I have a breaker panel in the garage and I already have the 50A breaker I bought for the welder. The main question now is to whether it is purposeful to buy the 8/3 or 8/2 wire since I only use three of the wires for the welder or a compressor. What is the benefit of using /3 wire? I have read for future use but what would need that 4th wire?

 

[Aceman]

ignore the bare copper,you dont need it.

+1 !

Wire size is related to both load and more importantly breaker size. If your using a 50A breaker you need #6. If you down grade the breaker to 40A, then you can use #8.

You want the breaker to trip BEFORE the wire gets hot enough to melt the insulation !

Welders have a different set of rules. If you search this topic on here you should find quite a few threads on it. It's been covered several times...

What is the benefit of using /3 wire? I have read for future use but what would need that 4th wire?

There isn't a benefit. It's just one more wire you're paying for, just to cap it off in the box. The only future use I can think of that may need that 4th wire is an oven.

 

[Rick98Z]

Thanks Aceman that is the answer I was looking for...I have searched and searched till blue in the face but I kept finding conflicting things. I am only going to run a welder or compressor off this receptacle so the 8/2 just makes more sense and I already have the 50A breaker. I just didn't know of what would need the 4th wire other than for something like a range...Good deal guys, thanks for all the helpful input!

 

[theoldwizard1]

Welders have a different set of rules. If you search this topic on here you should find quite a few threads on it. It's been covered several times...

I know you are referring to "duty cycle", but you can't guarantee that no one will EVER plug something else into that circuit that would draw close to 50A continuously. I would downgrade to the 40A breaker.

 

[Rick98Z]

If i went with 6/2 would that be better incase something were to come close to drawing the 50A? I already have the 50A breaker and don't have a receipt to return it for a 40A, that is why I am asking...

 

[Rick98Z]

Ok I bought the 6/2 to work with the 50A breaker/receptacle...that way there should be no issues! Thanks for all the help everyone. I will post up as soon as welding sparks start flying! First project is already parked in the bay...building a steel flatbed for a 2000 f-350, material is in...just waiting on me to hook up the welder

 

[theoldwizard1]

Ok I bought the 6/2 to work with the 50A breaker/receptacle...that way there should be no issues!

Better safe than sorry !

Wait until you see how much the plug and receptacle cost !

 

[Rick98Z]

Already got em...wire was the last purchase! There goes another $40 at Lowes

 

[Rick98Z]

WOO HOO!!!! I fired up the ol' lincoln stick welder and we are good! Time to start this F350 flatbed project!!! THanks again for all the info everyone

 

[Racecarl]

AT the risk of starting WWIII, I used the white for the neutral/ground terminal. If I had a four pin receptacle (like a Lincoln portable generator I use at work) I would have used green for the grounding terminal. My panel box is fed directly from a meter, not from the house, so my panel is fed with two hot legs and a neutral. The panel is grounded with a ufer ground. So, in this case, the neutral lugs are bonded to the grounding lugs via a green screw tagged with instructions for its proper use. Since the neutrals and the grounds are connected, and the wire does not care what color it is, I used a white wire.

 

[ibedayank]

Input Power
230 V, 25 A, 60 Hz, 1-Phase
120 V, 20 A, 60 Hz, 1-Phase
8 gauge to be safe
10gauge is good for about 20 amp at 240 volts'the longer the wire runs the bigger the gauge is needed

 

[Norcal]

AT the risk of starting WWIII, I used the white for the neutral/ground terminal. If I had a four pin receptacle (like a Lincoln portable generator I use at work) I would have used green for the grounding terminal. My panel box is fed directly from a meter, not from the house, so my panel is fed with two hot legs and a neutral. The panel is grounded with a ufer ground. So, in this case, the neutral lugs are bonded to the grounding lugs via a green screw tagged with instructions for its proper use. Since the neutrals and the grounds are connected, and the wire does not care what color it is, I used a white wire.

It's poor practice & a NEC violation.

 

[toyotadriver]

It's poor practice & a NEC violation.

What part is a violation?

 

[Alchymist]

The light wire on the big breaker that is allowed for welder circuits is fine, but the receptacle must be marked "For Welder Use Only". This precludes heavy continuous loads being plugged in and causing an overheat condition. And that bare copper wire is VERY important - it's the equipment grounding conductor.

 

[oleguy]

white or gray for neutrals.green or green with yellow stripe ground.if you use white,needs to be marked green.

 

[Racecarl]

Norcal, can you cite the NEC I am 'violating'? My 240V receptacles are intended for welder use, but if I plugged something else in (say a kiln with a 120v timer) wouldn't I then be in violation of NEC because I would be intentionally using a grounding conductor as a neutral? All of my wiring in my garage is in EMT.

Would I be in compliance if I taped the white wires green?

I am not trying to start a battle--I am just trying to understand what you are telling me, and more importantly, why you feel this is a violation.

 

[Alchymist]

Norcal, can you cite the NEC I am 'violating'? My 240V receptacles are intended for welder use, but if I plugged something else in (say a kiln with a 120v timer) wouldn't I then be in violation of NEC because I would be intentionally using a grounding conductor as a neutral? All of my wiring in my garage is in EMT.

Would I be in compliance if I taped the white wires green?

I am not trying to start a battle--I am just trying to understand what you are telling me, and more importantly, why you feel this is a violation.

If, as it appears, you are bonding the neutral to the ground terminals at the receptacle, that is a NEC violation. There must be only one neutral to ground bond - in residential systems it is the main panel. If you merely used a white wire to connect the ground terminal back to the panel, this is a violation if a) single wire, not part of a cable, and B) smaller than# ? (I think 4, but could be larger), and as such cannot be recolored.. You stated all wiring in EMT, which provides the equipment ground, but is not preferred, as it can be unreliable.

Google "nec neutral ground bond" for more info than you ever wanted on grounding. Here's a start:

http://www.smartpowersystems.com/content/pdfs/reports/tobondornottobond.pdf

I don't have the NEC book in front of me, so take this for what you paid for it......

 

[Racecarl]

Alchymist, I think I follow what you are saying. After doing a little more research, I wired my receptacles the 'old school' way, that is two hots and a white. Later welder instructions showed two hots and a green. Still more modern welders have a four pin plug, two hots, a neutral, and a ground.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...t:en-us&biw=1051&bih=630&tbm=isch&um=1&itbs=1http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i1.quinbyhardware.com/6174635.jpg&imgrefurl=http://quinbyhardware.com/Products/Search%3FDepartmentSearch%3D0%26CategorySearch%3D0%26InStore%3D0%26page%3D404&usg=__l6WSw4P_ryYzGUNdO_mlajO_4DM=&h=200&w=200&sz=7&hl=en&start=15&zoom=1&tbnid=OGzTN_Jdx4HfhM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=104&ei=D3HDTYjMEIis8gOxxJn7BA&prev=/search%3Fq%3D50A%2Bwelder%2Breceptacle%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us%26biw%3D1051%26bih%3D630%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1

These are links to the receptacles I am using. I am NOT using any kind of jumper from the non-powered terminal on the receptacle to the receptacle box. It sounds like I need to buy some #6cu GREEN wire to replace the white wire I currently have installed to each receptacle. It still seems like kind of a waste, though. Green or white, the wire running from the receptacle to the panel box terminates in electrically the same place, since the neutral and grounding bars are bonded together as required by NEC.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The light wire on the big breaker that is allowed for welder circuits is fine, but the receptacle must be marked "For Welder Use Only". This precludes heavy continuous loads being plugged in and causing an overheat condition.

He is using 6 gauge on a 50A breaker. Isn't that sufficient for continuous duty ?

 

[Alchymist]

He is using 6 gauge on a 50A breaker. Isn't that sufficient for continuous duty ?

6 is good for 50 amps continuous. (If the run is real long, say 200-- 300 feet, I would bump up to #4, just from a voltage drop standpoint). The point I was making is that #8 (and I think #10) is ok on a 50 Amp breaker for welder use, provided it is marked as such.

What racecarl did with using a white wire for equipment ground was ok electrically, and safe to a point, just not to NEC code, as pointed out previously.

One of the most common mistakes in electrical work is the EGC and neutral bonding. NEC requires that they be bonded in only one place in the system. All new work requires a green or bare copper (or emt, which *****) to every fixture or outlet, regardless of voltage. Many dryer & stove circuits were originally ran with 2 hots and a neutral, no ground, and are grandfathered in; all new must be 4 wire. People who elect to use one of these existing circuits to power a welder run the risk of using ungrounded equipment. The bonding requirement is a pitfall of those who install their own standby generators also, but that's a subject for a whole nother discussion.

 

[tdkkart]

6 is good for 50 amps continuous. (If the run is real long, say 200-- 300 feet, I would bump up to #4, just from a voltage drop standpoint). The point I was making is that #8 (and I think #10) is ok on a 50 Amp breaker for welder use, provided it is marked as such.

And a large percentage of the public will see "for welder only" and say "Well, welders draw hellish power, so this outlet will work just fine for my powdercoat oven."

How long will that 10ga wire last at 50 amps continuous??

Another fie example of the NEC having their heads in the wrong place.

 

[Alchymist]

And a large percentage of the public will see "for welder only" and say "Well, welders draw hellish power, so this outlet will work just fine for my powdercoat oven."

How long will that 10ga wire last at 50 amps continuous??

Another fie example of the NEC having their heads in the wrong place.

More like the "general public" having their heads in the wrong place. What part of "FOR WELDERS ONLY" isn't clear?

Never underestimate the power of an idiot to screw up something that is idiot proof.