So my new shop is sinking!

[Choppedsled]

Well the enthusiasm for my new dream shop just took a huge turn for the worst. My #1 mistake was believing what an excavator and the builder told me about fill and compaction. The only location for my new shop had an old sewer line roughly 7 feet underground. My building dept made me replace the old clay pipe before I could build over the site. I was told by my excavator that he'd refill it with the existing dirt and pack it as he went and I would be fine. I live in the northwest and the fill is a rocky brown mix. Hard as can be for the first few feet and then tends to loosen up after that. Shoring was needed. I asked two seperate builders what they thought and both said I should be fine. I wasn't around for the compaction if there was any, I work out of town and missed only that critical part of the whole build. The site sat for 2 months before construction started and was completed in a week and a half slab and all. The crew that built it was spot on and the quality of there work was perfect with regards to the construction of the structure, 24' X 44' X 12' pole building. I don't blame them, they wern't around for the dig etc. Ah life was good until two weeks ago. We had a big snow event, big thaw with near record rain. Late thursday I noticed the slab cracked for the entire 44' length rougly 6' - 8' in from the back wall, right over the excavated area and has dropped about 1/2" - 1" along the back. Worse, two of the posts have sunk a bit, at least 1" as well. The others may soon follow. The area behind my shop has sunken in as much as 8" in spots with gaps or cracks in the ground right where the dig perimiter was, you get the picture. So I'm looking for some advice. Too late to lecture about proper fill etc, that ones bitten me already. I'm not worried about the slab. I'll have it jacked or replace that entire length. I am looking for advice on what measures to take to salvage the 5 posts I have over that area. They were planted in concrete, not on, 4' depth X 2' plus wide. It's below freezing now at the surface but the soil may still be workable for a while. It definately needs some packing now where I can and some fill, will this help stabalize the posts some? So please constructive advice, best, worst case senerio. I'm taking pics tomorrow.

 

[Franz©]

If I'm reading this right, you have a slab across the back that is 6' x 44' ± with several posts at the edge of the slab. Everything under that slab is sinking. Your primary goal is to hold the posts at height.

About the only hope you have in my opinion is to bolt a 44 foot beam inside of the posts, and use the sinking floor for a base to set some cribbing on. Attach outriggers from the beam, at the posts, a couple feet onto the slab, and crib up under them. You will probably need to cable the beam to the solid posts at the other side of the building to prevent or minimize blowout.

Since the 8 foot section of slab is somewhat monolythic it will allow the weight the posts are carrying to be spread out. The slab may or may not continue to sink. If it sinks more you can always add height to the cribbing to hold the wall.

I wouldn't begin getting into an immediate fix because frost is coming, and any compaction effort probably isn't going to work at this point in time.

As to being out of town during the build, I have never understood why in a world where video recorders are so cheap people don't use them on construction projects. Video rarely misrepresents what happened.

 

[Sundowner]

lets start with the basics:
what size/shape (round/square?) are the posts and what are the walls built out of? are the posts still accessible from the inside?
this may not be that big a deal. a couple of house jacks and some plate steel may make this an easy fix.

don't worry too much about the slab. that's easy to fix, that can be mudjacked in a fairly painless fashion.

 

[shopforeman]

It sounds like they didn't compact enough or at all. In a similar situation in the past a water line had to be dug up under an area that was to be finished with interlocking paving stones. When we filled the excavation we compacted the fill every 12"-18" and poured the water to it in between. We spent an entire day packing and wetting, allowing the water to settle in compacting again. Waited a couple of days for the water to settle the earth if it was going to and then went ahead. The area never did settle. Even after a number of years it was still true. Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

 

[Choppedsled]

Thanks for the replys and advice. I am seriously looking for options at this point. The posts are square 8" with a 2X8 bottom girt, all other girts are 2X6. Exterior metal only, no interior as of yet. On the plus side my new heater gets fired up Friday, yea.....So keep em coming, one question ? If I use the floor for a base to jack up or crib the posts should I cut the floor away around the post concrete only so it won't interfere if the floor keeps settling and resting on top of the post concrete ? Since the floor was poured over the top of the post concrete ? Really do appreciate the help everyone.

 

[Franz©]

You definitely need to cut the posts free of the floor slab. Right now the weight of the slab is probably what is causing the posts to sink.

 

[Sundowner]

first step should be to get the slab mudjacked back into place.
you can't (well, shouldn't) fix the building structure until you have a level datum to work from. Once the slab is mud jacked back to where it's stable and level, then you can address the posts. It might be as easy as just taking a chain saw to the posts, slipping a stub of wood in between the cut, and using a steel sleeve to keep it all happy.

 

[1320stang]

This is not really pertinant to you question, but rather a general comment about compaction and settling. My house was built in '98 and since we're out in the country, the builder did what many builders do and dug a pit that he thru trash and trees in to burn. He backfilled it, obviously with no compaction, but it had gotten to where I couldn't exactly remember where it was located. This past year we've had record percipitation and now I know exactly where the pit was due to the 12"-16" drop in about a 3' diameter area in the backyard.

 

[ShortyMadlock]

Gotta see the pics on this one!!

 

[Junkman]

I would also start taking pictures, and find an attorney that will give you good advise as to what recourse you have against the excavator and anyone else that might be responsible. If the person that did the work has insurance, then it might be as simple as them turning it over to the insurance company, and they will pay to re-mediate the problem. One problem is that you can wind up dealing with this problem on an ongoing basis every time it settles more. It could wind up that the building itself might become unstable, and have to be removed. This is one of those times, that I am uncertain if it is wise to notify the building department, or take a wait and see attitude as to what is to come. One thing is certain, it is going to cost you in aggravation and $$$$ in the end for someone else's mistake.

 

[Mark in Memphis]

I'm sorry for your frustration. Sinking foundations are repariable, for a cost. I think you will need to get some folks out to look at at the situation and give you some estimates. Here are a couple of companies I'm familiar with, but there are many more.

www.uretekicr.com
www.olshanfoundation.com

Just type "foundation repair" in Google and you'll have reading material for life.

The next question is cost. I had a professor say that "Every engineering equation ends with a dollar sign." Will the foundation repair be more expensive than excavating, compacting, and rebuilding?

Last, I agree that you need to get the soil-guy to look at the problem. If he doesn't fix the problem, then talk to a lawyer.

 

[Choppedsled]

Well, for starters I don’t believe I have any legal angle against the excavator. I took his advice and word that the existing fill would work fine. Do I have any of this in writing ? No he basically did what he was hired to do replace the sewer line. We discussed the settling issue and I accepted what he recommended. I never got a promise on paper or guarantee against a failure. My fault and my mistake, and many others have been in the same boat as me sad to say. The builder built a great building on less than acceptable soil. I do think the building company’s construction manager should have given me better advice on the fill but once again, he verbally said it should be fine and the rest is history. Nothing in writing taking responsibility for that. I am to provide a level compacted building site for them to construct on. Bottom line, my fault. So what’s done is done, I can accept that and move on. It’s not going to fall in a giant hole or become unstable, but it may become a pain in the A$$ to fix to my liking. I’ll repair it one way or another, just looking for the best method so I can get on with my dream shop. So constructive advice ?

 

[toxicz28]

....So, constructive advice?

You discussed your plans with the town, excavator and builder. The town wanted certain things changed, so you did. Both the excavator and project manager knew what you were planning to build on this excavation, and both told you that you would be fine. They are the professionals, not you. You followed their advice. Before you pull out the checkbook, talk to a lawyer. Let them tell you whether or not you have a chance in court. What will it take, an hour or two of your time?

 

[6768rogues]

First, as stated, talk to a lawyer. Get the straight story whether you have any recourse.
To repair it, I would jack up the building, remove soil from around the poles and down to virgin soil below the poles, then backfill with flowable fill (k-crete or similar). It hardens similar to concrete, flows to fill voids, won't settle if on virgin soil, does not need compaction and is excavatable if you need to dig in the future.

 

[shopforeman]

Not sure about talking to "the bloodsucking lawyers"? That may just be throwing good money after bad in this case. I tend to agree with you that you have little or no legal recourse here, but then I am obviously not a lawyer! Thanking my lucky stars for that.
Someone else suggested having the slab mudjacked. That is exactly what you need to look at doing in my opinion. Until the slab is leveled and stable anything else is likely to be an effort in frustration and a further loss of money.

 

[Junkman]

Not sure about talking to "the bloodsucking lawyers"? That may just be throwing good money after bad in this case. I tend to agree with you that you have little or no legal recourse here, but then I am obviously not a lawyer! Thanking my lucky stars for that.
Someone else suggested having the slab mudjacked. That is exactly what you need to look at doing in my opinion. Until the slab is leveled and stable anything else is likely to be an effort in frustration and a further loss of money.

I always find it interesting that people have such a low respect for lawyers, but when they get their sorry asses in trouble, whether it be as a result of an automobile accident, or some other thing that happens to them that is beyond their control, who do they call first to try to pull themselves out of the problem???? Those very same lawyers that they have spoken about so often in the past with disparaging and condescending remarks. If it were not for lawyers, and the laws of this country, then we would have anarchy. It is the laws of the nation that both protect us, and the lawyers of the nation that protect our rights under the constitution. How would you like it if everyone bad mouthed all the people in your chosen profession? Every profession has both good and bad in it, including mechanics, doctors, lawyers, etc..

 

[markzrt1]

How about some pictures?

 

[rockhound]

The sewer itself might be leaking, causing piping in the soil, thus the differential settlement.

The one thing that always causes problems with geotechnical issues is WATER.

Do you have surface water flowing to the area? The less water you have infiltrating the soil around your shop, the less settlement you're going to have from here on out.

 

[Choppedsled]

I’ll try and post some pics as soon as I get a chance. They aren’t that dramatic looking though, an inch or so of settlement doesn’t look like a lot in a pic. The ground behind the shop has settled the most, up to 8” in spots and that’s obvious. I’m confident the sewer was installed properly and isn’t leaking. The settlement is pretty consistent for most of the 75 ft length of the sewer excavation site. If it were a leak it would be much worse in that area. I’m installing gutters this weekend. Rain was the big factor in the setteling. It’s going to happen eventually over time but it was near record rain and a snow melt that flooded the entire area badly. So I’m hoping with crossed fingers that minimizing the moisture will help the situation. I did get some legal advice from a contract specialist that deals with construction projects and he also feels it would be a battle I would never win. I’ll get some pics up and then maybe some more ideas will pour in as what to do short and long term. Thanks

 

[T56 Impala]

First to the OP. SOrry to hear about this problem. It sure can be frestrating when things like this happen. I had a back yard built. 12 foot high 8x8 lumber 104 feet long 45 feet front to back. Yes, it took a buch of fill. I was home during the entire build. I watched them compact the soil. As of today, I have about 3 inches of settling. Its been super dry here so I am not sure how thst effects it. Not sure what I'm going to do about it either. I hope for the best for you.

I always find it interesting that people have such a low respect for lawyers, but when they get their sorry asses in trouble, whether it be as a result of an automobile accident, or some other thing that happens to them that is beyond their control, who do they call first to try to pull themselves out of the problem???? Those very same lawyers that they have spoken about so often in the past with disparaging and condescending remarks. If it were not for lawyers, and the laws of this country, then we would have anarchy. It is the laws of the nation that both protect us, and the lawyers of the nation that protect our rights under the constitution. How would you like it if everyone bad mouthed all the people in your chosen profession? Every profession has both good and bad in it, including mechanics, doctors, lawyers, etc..

The few times I have delt with lawyers, after my first, I tell them up front that I don't trust them and that I want to see EVERYTHING they see regaurding my case. Everytime, when the case was over, they told me that they respected me and worked harder for me because I told them that. They always asked if I still felt that way about them. I always answer "YES."

I know there are good ones and bad ones. Just as in every profession. Just with lawyers you know that they are trained to bend the truth!

 

[IdahoJoe]

Out of curiousity, where are you? NW Washington?

 

[Choppedsled]

Spokane....

 

[Franz©]

Regardless of what is done with respect to lawyers, contractors, insurance, the first duty still remains with the owner to minimize additional damage by taking mitigating measures.

The first mitigating measure that needs to occurr is to get the weight of the floor off the posts and secure the posts at their persent height. If that isn't done additional damage will occurr that could have been prevented, and the owner is going to play hell collecting for what could have been prevented.

""I did get some legal advice from a contract specialist that deals with construction projects and he also feels it would be a battle I would never win. ""
Well you now know how smart that guy is. While it is true you may never win any legal case, you can certainly make it far more cost effective for the potential DEFENDANTS to make you whole now than go thru the costs of trial and loss of reputation.

 

[russlaferrera]

What you know so far, the slab is sinking, the posts on the slab are sinking, the fill dirt is sinking and winter is coming fast.

What you don't know. How much soil has to be added. Where it has to be added. Has the time to do it has passed, because of the weather?

What are your options? Let is keep sinking. Hire a lawyer. Try to add fill. Hire a contractor to pump mud or concrete to stabilize the slab.

IMO, Franz spelled it out for you. Cut the posts loose. Crib it up until spring. You will be in a better position to evaluate exactly where the full extent of the problem area, and formulate an attack plan.

 

[Choppedsled]

Franz, You are correct. The contract specialist I talked with deals with multi million dollar projects and spends his fare share of time in the legal arena. He did say I woudn't have a chance in court, but also suggested that just starting the process could get there attention and possibly put the bill on thier shoulders. But he said the excavator would be the one to pursue. The trouble is I don't believe he was trying to pull one over on me, or rip me off. He's a very small family operated business owner and did bend over backwards to help me, time wise, and cost wise, even if it's failed on me now. I believe what goes around comes around and I don't think putting him through a lawsuit is the answer. I'm in the mind set to move on and get this thing headed in the right direction.

My gas heater gets fired up on Friday and Saturday I'll start taking measures to prevent any more movement on the structure. The slab around the posts will be the first thing to go. I don't think I want to have it mud jacked back up just to have it settle again. I may just cut the last 1/4 out. You mentioned a beam accross the back wall. That sounds like a sound idea vs lifting under the trusses near the effected posts. The nearer the bottom of the structure the better I would assume? As it continues to settle I can jack it and keep it level, and decide what measures to take this spring when the ground softens up again. Have any suggestions for a beam ? And mounting method, lag bolts or carrage bolt attachments. I'll try posting some pics so you can get an idea of the construction, basic pole etc. Also, hasn't budged in a week but thats temporary. Hopefully I can keep updating the thread and if someone ends up in the same situation it will help them out. Thanks...

 

[Choppedsled]

Here are some pics so you can get an idea of the construction, i.e. pole building and trouble....

 

[Choppedsled]

And a few with the settling behind the shop...And the culprit that started it all.

 

[Franz©]

1, any thought of repair at this point in time is purely foolish.

Cut the posts clear of the slab, probably possible with a saw and a little finesse.

Clamp a 6" I beam or chanel to the posts as shown in the HIGH quality engineering drawings, using cribbing to hold the steel till clamped.

Attach angle buck/outriggers to steel at posts as shown

Cable ends of beam to solid posts at front of building tightly to prevent wall kickout.

base of cribbing should be at least 4 feet paralell to wall, all cribs to be independant.
Crib and adjust as necessary.

 

[Franz©]

I see the possibility of recovery from contractors a lot differently.

Since the hole was because the municipality insisted on replacement of a sewer, they had a duty to inspect = Defendant. Next comes the excivator = probably judgement proof, next comes the general contractor who KNEW or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN the site wasn't properly prepared. These actions usually get shotgunned, and include everybody who came near the job after the excivator. If an engineer or 2 were required in the permitting process they get thrown into the DEFENDANT pool too. Generally all their insurance carriers get together and either subrogate all over each other or agree to share in the settlement.

It's all a game played every day in the US "Justice system".

The best thing you have going is your ignorance of building methods and procedures and your reliance upon the expertise of others.

 

[thefairlaneman]

Even though I like to avoid contracts.In this case a contract is needed to prove what was paid for and what wasnt done...makes the lawyers work quicker.

 

[comp]

man

 

[1991Syclone]

Have you contacted any of the parties involved to see what they have to say about the whole situation? I understand not wanting to destroy a small business with a lawsuit. It's rare that someone doesn't want to sue in this type of situation. You may want to get an engineer out there to see what he thinks of the whole situation as well.

 

[Choppedsled]

Franz, thanks for the drawings, top notch stuff ! It looks to make the most sence out of all the solutions I've drawn out of the woodwork. I did talk with the company I contracted to build the shop today. The salesman and project manager that was in charge of the construction crew will be coming over tomorrow. I'll see how they approach the situation and go from there. I'm sure they'll be feeling me out as well...

 

[Junkman]

Most contractors have insurance to cover this, and that is why they pay the premiums. If there is a mistake, then the insurance will pay, and the contractor will continue in business. His premiums might go up, but so will everyone else in that category that is insured with that company. That is the way insurance companies work. They take your money, and if they have to pay out money, they will take even more of your money next year. Insurance companies never loose money. Payment of claims make it easier for them to raise rates the following year to offset the previous years payments. It is a win win situation for insurance companies.....

 

[rodnok1]

It could have been caught during installation of poles IMO, it's easy to tell un-compacted soil and they should have been looking for it since they knew what had been done. In reality the only way really to keep it from sinking more is to remove the soil and have it compacted properly.

 

[jamm]

If the installation of everything was on the up and up, permits, etc I do not see why you would not make the proper parties responsible for fixing the problem. I have never had to use a lawyer in such a capacity, but right is right. Unless you have unlimited $ I do not undestand your position. I sincerely hope you get it resolved so you can put it to use.

In looking at your pics, it looks like the gable rafter is nailed to the corner poles, I couldn't tell how the others are attached but with the 2x running at the same elevation down the perpendicular wall what is supporting them? Are they sitting on top of a 2x that spans from pole to pole or just nailed into the poles. Just curious!

 

[Choppedsled]

Hello, they were initially nailed to hold them in place at the time of the pics. They were through bolted before they finished up and sided it.

The builder now says he's coming on Monday to look it over. I started fabing up the bracing so I can steady the posts this week. What a pain in the a$$ this is becoming. On a good note we finished up my heater install Friday and it's working perfect. Very happy with the unit and even uninsulated it quickly got toasty in the shop. So it will be more tolerable sorting out the problem now.

Due to the outstanding amount of people advising me to persue legal advice, and pending the outcome of the visit from my builder I have two appointments with lawyers next week. Both free consults so it can't hurt, but I would imagine the fees to actually get a lawyer to take this on wouldn't be cheap. That's going to be something to consider as well. If I can't win the case I'd be better off saving the money towards fixing the problem. Any insite on what legal representation might cost?

 

[macdabs]

From past projects , and day to day issues before everybody spends money on legal bills and pointing fingers, talk to everybody involved in one room!

Schedule the contractor, the excvator, the inspector, and anybody who was involved on the project. You may even want to hire a professional engineer to be present and state your case and get ideas on how to repair the problem. As a small business owner I hate that a small or large issue explodes and may even damage your reputation or business due to lack of communication from my customers. One reason I wish the big wide web never came about is for the reason nobody has face to face time to communicate together. You may be surprise to find out that with everybody involved a solution may come forward to save face for future work or projects .I have three differant service businesses , all three are differant but share one common goal ,a happy customer in the end .

Macdabs

 

[shopforeman]

I always find it interesting that people have such a low respect for lawyers, but when they get their sorry asses in trouble, whether it be as a result of an automobile accident, or some other thing that happens to them that is beyond their control, who do they call first to try to pull themselves out of the problem???? Those very same lawyers that they have spoken about so often in the past with disparaging and condescending remarks. If it were not for lawyers, and the laws of this country, then we would have anarchy. It is the laws of the nation that both protect us, and the lawyers of the nation that protect our rights under the constitution. How would you like it if everyone bad mouthed all the people in your chosen profession? Every profession has both good and bad in it, including mechanics, doctors, lawyers, etc..

Spoken like a true lawyer.

In my country we have no Montlick & Associates chasing the ambulance to the hospital and there is no 1-800-LAW-NEED, and we are all thankful for that. In this country we don't rush to a lawyer everytime we have a fender bender. Believe me. The last person I will call if I have problems is a lawyer. In my limited experience involving a lawyer generally means somebody is going to get screwed. Often both parties will get screwed. But the lawyer NEVER GETS SCREWED!

Sorry. It wasn't my intention to give someone an excuse to pull this thread off topic.

 

[hoarder1212]

I believe you said that the posts are in concrete.Could you mudjack them as well as the floor? Just a thought.