Help me sort out a rats nest....

[mpire]

Before everyone starts flaming, I am cleaning up the work of the previous owner of my mansion.

Rather than having the wires twisted together and wrapped with tape, I have cut all that away and installed a couple blue boxes. I used wire nuts and tried to make it as clean as possible.

Take a look at this photo, and let me know what you think. They are wires going to the lights in the garage. They all come off a single breaker. I have since replaced the lights in the garage and actually installed wire grommets in the holes when I installed the new lights.

Take a look, tell me if its good, or feel free to recommend how to clean it up using stuff I can buy at lowes or home depot so I don't burn my house down.

The boxes normally have tops on them so they are completely enclosed.

 

[busted knuckle]

I personally tape the wire nuts and wire for that extra insurance that no wire can arc to the next.

 

[Alchymist]

Top box in the picture might be overfilled (wire count). Can't tell size of box, but looks like too many wires. Wires should be fastened within 6" of the box. Wire nuts properly sized and installed do not require tape.

 

[hammlm]

Agree with Alchymist.

Also, remove the outer plastic sheathing from your NM-B (Romex) just after it enters the box.

If that box is not a "deep" box, I'd bet that the wirefill is exceeded.

A closer photo might be better, it seems as if you might have your grounds wirenutted off in pairs or something. There's definitely not 7 #14's under that red wirenut to left of your box in the photo...

 

[mpire]

Maybe I should explain...

What we have is a double wide box for putting two light switches in it. Its fairly deep I guess.

The first box has:

Power wire coming in
Switch wire going to the light switch on the wall (so its out and back)
Jumper wire to the second box for two 2 bulb T8 lights.
Then 4 more 2 Bulb T8 lights.

That should be 7 wires, I did the math and its not overloading the breaker or anything, I think the lights should have been wired in a daisy chain, but instead they were wired in a star pattern. I replaced the incandescent light bulbs with the T8 lights.

 

[Alchymist]

Maybe I should explain...

What we have is a double wide box for putting two light switches in it. Its fairly deep I guess.

The first box has:

Power wire coming in
Switch wire going to the light switch on the wall (so its out and back)
Jumper wire to the second box for two 2 bulb T8 lights.
Then 4 more 2 Bulb T8 lights.

That should be 7 wires, I did the math and its not overloading the breaker or anything, I think the lights should have been wired in a daisy chain, but instead they were wired in a star pattern. I replaced the incandescent light bulbs with the T8 lights.

That's 7 cables, not 7 wires. There's 14 wires in that box (grounds are not counted for fill). Don't have the book in front of me, but I think that's overfilled. The math don't count toward fill - could be less than 1 amp load, the fill still won't fly.

 

[mpire]

Should I add another box then?

Whats the max number of wires?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Switch box is a bad choice, its difficult to find a flat cover that fits it. Should have used a 4x4 box with screw holes at the corners. Covers for this are easy to find. The box should have, probably molded into the inside bottom of the box, the cubic inch capacity of the box. You can also calculate this by measuring the inside dimensions of the box. You have seven romex cables, thats 14 current carrying wires. In addition, you count one ground, if different sizes, you use the largest one. Assuming everything is 12 gauge, including the ground, that makes 15 wires, times 2.25 per wire, is 33.75 cu inch minimum box size to not overfill (assuming no devices or anything else in the box) A 4x4x1-7/8 box is 30 cu/in...... too small. You need to look at the size molded into the box as plastic boxes with integral clamps are difficult to accurately calculate the size of.

Article 314 of the code addresses these issues.

If the box size proves to be too small or marginal, you can sometimes find (but I'm not sure for a switch box) plastic extender boxes to increase the size, then the cover on top of that.

Romex sheathing should be stripped off just inside of the box and not LESS than 1/4" from the clamp inside the box. Not sure on the max at this point, one reference I have says 2002 code said 1" but I cannot find it in the 2008 code (gotta break down and buy the 2011 code).

Charles

 

[Gooch]

Switch box is a bad choice, its difficult to find a flat cover that fits it. Should have used a 4x4 box with screw holes at the corners. Covers for this are easy to find. The box should have, probably molded into the inside bottom of the box, the cubic inch capacity of the box. You can also calculate this by measuring the inside dimensions of the box. You have seven romex cables, thats 14 current carrying wires. In addition, you count one ground, if different sizes, you use the largest one. Assuming everything is 12 gauge, including the ground, that makes 15 wires, times 2.25 per wire, is 33.75 cu inch minimum box size to not overfill (assuming no devices or anything else in the box) A 4x4x1-7/8 box is 30 cu/in...... too small. You need to look at the size molded into the box as plastic boxes with integral clamps are difficult to accurately calculate the size of.

Article 314 of the code addresses these issues.

If the box size proves to be too small or marginal, you can sometimes find (but I'm not sure for a switch box) plastic extender boxes to increase the size, then the cover on top of that.

Romex sheathing should be stripped off just inside of the box and not LESS than 1/4" from the clamp inside the box. Not sure on the max at this point, one reference I have says 2002 code said 1" but I cannot find it in the 2008 code (gotta break down and buy the 2011 code).

Charles

you have hard times finding White/Ivory/Light Almond 2 Gang blanks?

 

[mpire]

Who cares what color it is if its hidden in the attic?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

you have hard times finding White/Ivory/Light Almond 2 Gang blanks?

I suppose they make them, but I cannot recall ever seeing one. You won't find it in the big box stores, thats for sure. Much easier to find a square cover plate with screws in the corner.

I looked this evening at Lowes, and a Carlin two gang device box, nail mounted the same as in the picture was 32 cu inches, so I'm betting his box is undersize for the wires in it.

Charles

 

[ishiboo]

I suppose they make them, but I cannot recall ever seeing one. You won't find it in the big box stores, thats for sure. Much easier to find a square cover plate with screws in the corner.

I looked this evening at Lowes, and a Carlin two gang device box, nail mounted the same as in the picture was 32 cu inches, so I'm betting his box is undersize for the wires in it.

Charles

Weird! All our big box stores - Menards, Lowes, HD, and our local hardware stores all carry 2-gang blanks in various colors and styles locally.

They're great for making that junction box exposed if there is ever drywall... they'll match the rest of your covers.

 

[ishiboo]

I looked this evening at Lowes, and a Carlin two gang device box, nail mounted the same as in the picture was 32 cu inches, so I'm betting his box is undersize for the wires in it.

My question would be - if it were your house, would you go up in the attic, undo all the wire nuts and pull the wires out and replace the box to fix a problem with a box being undersized by 1.75 in2?

I don't have that kind of free time...

 

[Gooch]

Weird! All our big box stores - Menards, Lowes, HD, and our local hardware stores all carry 2-gang blanks in various colors and styles locally.

They're great for making that junction box exposed if there is ever drywall... they'll match the rest of your covers.

Yup, they are in with the device covers. Usually right next to the 2 gang switch covers.

http://www.lowes.com/pl_Blank_42948..._prd_lis_ord_nbr|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1

 

[Alchymist]

My question would be - if it were your house, would you go up in the attic, undo all the wire nuts and pull the wires out and replace the box to fix a problem with a box being undersized by 1.75 in2?

I don't have that kind of free time...

Depends on where you live- if it were in a place with strict code compliance, and you wanted to sell......

 

[mpire]

The only real issue is that when you pull down the stairs to the attic in the garage, you see these two boxes. The photo was taking standing in the garage, not in the attic.

So while I can remember where everything goes, its probably a good idea to up-size the box with an extender to make it code. If I were to want to sell the house, I wouldn't want the inspector to latch on to that and say my house is a death trap. I will probably forget all about this in a week, so an extender is cheap and fast to get the volume and I don't have to mess with the wire nuts.

 

[cowboyjosh]

I think we can agree that the outer jacket of the Romex need to be stripped back before it enters the box, and 6 inches of wires be left exposed in the box, the boxes are undersized for the wire count.

My problem is I can't see that the Romex is nailed off within a foot of the boxes.

If it were my home, I would probably rip out the previous HO handy work and re-do it, correctly.

 

[brewchief]

If I were an inspector that would be a red flag to me, even if it's safe it just looks nasty.

Wires should be run neat and clean and stapled as needed and within 6" of each box, if this means running a few feet of new wire to a light because what you have is short so be it.

If a larger box is needed due to fill requirements it's only a couple bucks and will look proper and be proper.

Those boxes look like they are real close to the roof sheathing in those pics, it might be just the pic but I would lower them if they are less then 3-4", reason is if the roof is replaced the roofing nails normally will protrude though the osb a bit, that's not a big deal but if someone on the roof nails in a toe board bracket with a couple 16ds then 3-4" seems like just enough room, I know it's a longshot but you'd be surprised at how often those longshots pay out.

Try to get in the habit of running wire neat and clean all the time, it's amazing how much better the job will look and a good looking job attracts a lot less scrutiny from inspectors.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

My question would be - if it were your house, would you go up in the attic, undo all the wire nuts and pull the wires out and replace the box to fix a problem with a box being undersized by 1.75 in2?

I don't have that kind of free time...

The code is a minimum and if you have a box packed to or beyond the code requirements, its packed. Other issue is that this is in an attic, if the circuits are to be loaded to near max, then there could be code issues with derating the circuits due to temps above 86F, on top of having jammed too many wires in a box................

Yes, I'd be in the attic making it right (in the cool of the evening or night).

Charles

 

[mpire]

No worries guys, I appreciate the input.

So I need to extend the boxes a bit and remove the sheathing, no problem.

Also add some clips to hold the wires to the studs.

Boxes aren't too close to the roof or I wouldn't be able to get the wires in them. I can put my fist between the box and the roof.

I already replaced the previous owners work, this is my shoddy work. However, it WAS just electrical tape and a few wire nuts if he was feeling generous.

 

[justsam]

You could reduce your cable count in the one box by moving some of the T8s to the other box.

You could also daisy chain the T8s, as you mentioned in your post as opposed to running each back to the junction box.

 

[thrifty bill]

My question would be - if it were your house, would you go up in the attic, undo all the wire nuts and pull the wires out and replace the box to fix a problem with a box being undersized by 1.75 in2?

I don't have that kind of free time...

Yes, I would be replacing that box now, rerouting the wire, cutting away the sheathing, securing wires within a couple of inches of the box, etc.

I would find the time.

 

[mpire]

Ok, lets not get too far off topic guys. Don't need a flame war.

I will be making several of the recommended changes to the boxes shortly, and then we can comment on the quality of my work when I am done.

However, it shouldn't be setting the house on fire anytime in the next couple weeks, right?

 

[dave67fd]

It shouldn't but will it or can it? Shure it can. A simple defective lamp cord or outlet somewhere else in the house can burn it to the ground.

Unless your into halfassing, do it correctly and "remove" the double gang switch boxes and replace with 4x4 work boxes with solid plates as mentioned. Remember the saying: Wiring is not a hobby, hire a licensed electrician. If you are unsure of the practices and techniques leave it to the pro's.

 

[mpire]

Remember the saying: Wiring is not a hobby, hire a licensed electrician. If you are unsure of the practices and techniques leave it to the pro's.

Hiring a licensed electrician is a huge waste of money to fix these things. I don't hire professionals to do work, only to inspect the work when its done.

Case in point, I check with the experts on garage journal, then I fix it, then I hire someone to inspect it.

I will never hire an electrician and pay him $100 an hour to have his $8 an hour apprentice do all the work.

That's just stupidity.

 

[dave67fd]

Obviously your unsure of how to attack your problems correctly because your asking. Getting advice here and other areas is a great idea but get the advice first then do the job correctly. It doesn't make much sense to do it incorrectly only to ask for advise after and have to redo it all. Many times it is the little things that get overlooked and can cause future problems.

Don't take it the wrong way, im not trying to cut you or your work up, i have seen and heard too many stories of people that have done their own work only to wind up in a disaster, many times with the loss of lives. It happens every day.

I do commend you on taking the PO's mess ups and making the attempt to clean it up but if it's not cleaned up correctly and to code you only have yourself to blame. I know if i did a job and kept thinking I may have done something incorrectly I wouldn't be able to sleep until it was done correctly.

Home Depot or Lowes has an excellent book on basic wiring that has a wealth of info with many diagrams. Well worth the money and a great refrence tool.