Battery testers

[scott37300]

How usefull is a battery load tester for a home mechanic? Is it pretty much just a go/no go test for a good battery, or is there other things you can do with it? Would a HF 100 amp tester work decent enough for a home mechanic or should I look at something else.

http://www.harborfreight.com/100-amp-6-volt-12-volt-battery-load-tester-90636.html

Or tooltopia has an OTC for 30 bucks if there is a difference in quality, http://www.tooltopia.com/otc-tools-3180.aspx

Or this one for 60 bucks, http://www.tooltopia.com/otc-tools-3182.aspx.

They also have this OTC for 130, http://www.tooltopia.com/otc-tools-3183.aspx. This looks to be just a voltage tester and not a load tester?

They also have carbon pile testers for around 90 bucks, http://www.tooltopia.com/electronic-specialties-710.aspx. Is there anything special about these pile testers that I should get one of these instead of the standard load tester?

Anything else about battery testers I should know?

 

[tvfd911]

These (at least the top two) would not function as a true go/no go tester. they do however give a good indication of the health of the battery. The biggest thing is making sure the battery is truly fully charged. A tester that is truly go/no go is priced out of the relm of the average home garage weekender.

I'll be watching this thread as I've been wanting to pick up one of these, but not sure where each really falls on the accuracy/reliability scale.

 

[diesel research]

the 100amp toasters can't fully load a battery capable of 500+cca

I'd rather use a multimeter and the load of the starter motor to see how low the volts drop as opposed to a 100amp fixed load.

It also will under load most modern alternators but overload many older ones.

Those digital conductance testers are pretty neat, somehow they measure internal resistance and calculate CCA w/o an actual load. One advantage is they don't get so hot. Hence the name "toaster" for the 100amp one, which is just a heater grid like an electric space heater.

The 500amp models are adjustable.

I have considered building my own, simply by pulling out the 200amp (12v) heater element from my intake manifold. That thing has forked me over so many times it is not funny. On cold days it would kick on the same time my starter motor would. 200amp heater+300amp (or more) starter draw, sometimes=no start. Then again, maybe it worked as an onboard load tester and was trying to tell me my batteries were getting weak. Later I found they actually were weak.

 

[oldtools]

In order to load test a battery, a carbon pile load tester must be able to applied load up to half of the battery cca. If a battery is rated at 600 cca, then the load tester must be able to generate 300 amp of load. A 100 amp load tester will not do. The conductance or resistance load tester is pretty neat, but a little pricey (unless you get the HF version for $80). I got a Midtronics (Micro520) conductance tester for $10 at swap meet. It's so easy to use.

 

[scott37300]

So the "toaster" testers aren't that good for much since most vehicles batteries are over 500 CCA?

Do the digital ones test the battery and charging system pretty good or are they kind of generic testing? Guess what I'm trying to ask is if I buy one of the digital ones can I hook it up and it tell me if the alternator or battery are junk? Or will it just say there is a problem somewhere? I see the is a midtronics one which seems to be pretty highly regarded for 118 bucks, http://www.tooltopia.com/midtronics-pbt100.aspx. If you can get a decent idea of what's wrong with the digital ones it would be a good investment to be able to just hook it up and see what's wrong. But I've never used one so don't know if there is more involved than that or not. Are they kind of like a multimeter, just made for the charging system?

 

[oldtools]

The last "toaster" (ES1710) can go up to 500 amp which mean you can load test up to 1000 cca battery. The conductance tester (at least the micro520) will tell you if battery is bad and need replacing (it also tell you how much cca is left in battery). It also perform charging and starting tests though I have not use those functions. Each conductance tester has different capabilities. The capabilities I mentioned above is for the micro520.

 

[oldtools]

Also forgot to mention. The battery must be fully charged before performing load test regardless whether a "toaster" or conductance tester is used. I notice Walmart use conductance tester to test your battery if you bring it to them (for free).

 

[BQuicksilver]

I'm in the market for a load tester as well. Would love to hear more discussion.

 

[Stick]

I was just talking to Moose about battery testers. From our conversation:

Well, as with everything automotive, "it depends™".

A resistance style tester has a large resistor of a set value that is switched in series across the leads. A carbon pile style tester uses carbon discs with a variable pressure spring to alter the resistance applied. Fundamentally they do the same thing, apply a load across the battery, but one is a low cost tester and the other is a fairly expensive shop tool. You can find fairly reasonably priced carbon pile testers such as the electronic specialties #710, but I've always used the nice Associated testers that are capable of some serious amp draw.

If I was going to buy a new battery tester, I'd stick with a capacitance based style. They are certainly good enough for most battery testing, only missing the occasional failure. Depending on how much you want to spend determines what type of testing you are capable of. As an example, the closest thing to the tester that I have in my toolbox is the OTC 3184. It's a great tester that's capable of testing most automotive and heavy equipment batteries, but it's limitation is that you can't test AGM style batteries.

I really wouldn't mess around with a non capacitance based tester nowdays, they are just simple to use and pretty much foolproof. Now, that isn't to say that the resistor style testers are useless, they work fine for applying a load for testing alternator output for example, which is something a capacitance based tester can't do so both have their places.

For Scott's use, I'd grab the carbon pile tester as it's a bit more versatile. If he was testing batteries on a daily basis, I'd tell him to grab a decent conductance tester.

 

[mech.reclined]

I have been told not to even come near a glass mat battery with a "toaster" .

Urban legend or over-cautious??

 

[Stick]

FWIW, this is the carbon pile style tester we use in the shop I work in. I can't remember the model of the Midtronics tester we've got, but I do know it was ~$1800 or so when we purchased it.

 

[TOOL MASTER]

I just check the voltage while cranking......

 

[smalltruck]

I have the OTC model pictured. It has caught several bad batteries that the SO VAT45 at work has missed. My vote is for the OTC, its fast, easy to use, and very easy to understand.

I have been told several times to not use a carbon pile type tester on AGM batteries. I should check with optima battery to see what they say.

 

[scott37300]

I was just talking to Moose about battery testers. From our conversation:



For Scott's use, I'd grab the carbon pile tester as it's a bit more versatile. If he was testing batteries on a daily basis, I'd tell him to grab a decent conductance tester.

Alright, so we ruled out the 100 amp toaster style load testers. The two options that are left are a just under 100 dollar carbon pile load tester that is 500 amps and the 120 dollar midtronics http://www.tooltopia.com/midtronics-pbt100.aspx. It says that it tests alternators but is that just a basic test and not really trusted? Or there is the next step up for just under 200 bucks, http://www.tooltopia.com/midtronics-pbt200.aspx.

200 bucks is on the high end of what I would spend but if it will accurately test alternators it would be worth it to me. I won't use these everyday but I don't mind spending money on diagnostic equipement to help find problems.

Stick, in your post moose says that he would stick with a capacitance style. Are one of the two midtronics above a decent one or would I still be better off with a carbon pile tester? What can a carbon pile do better or that one of those midtronics can't? If I am going to have to spend over 200 to get a decent capacitance style than I will just go with a carbon pile. But if I go that route I think it's also going to need to upgrade my fluke, but that's another issue.

 

[hilld]

So how do you guys test on Diesels with 2 batteries, such as a powerstroke. If you disconnect 1 battery and tape up the terminals, usually they don't have enough juice to cycle the glowplugs before cranking. If you used a conductance tester such as a SnapOn EECS 500, how do you go about it?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks.

D.

 

[Stick]

I have been told not to even come near a glass mat battery with a "toaster" .

Urban legend or over-cautious??

I have been told several times to not use a carbon pile type tester on AGM batteries. I should check with optima battery to see what they say.

Considering AGM batteries are generally specified in high amp draw applications (it's one of their strengths), I don't see any harm in using a resistance style tester on them. You may need to use slightly different testing method (length of time, minimum voltage) than a standard lead acid battery though, I'd contact the manufacturer to be sure.

 

[Stick]

Stick, in your post moose says that he would stick with a capacitance style. Are one of the two midtronics above a decent one or would I still be better off with a carbon pile tester? What can a carbon pile do better or that one of those midtronics can't? If I am going to have to spend over 200 to get a decent capacitance style than I will just go with a carbon pile. But if I go that route I think it's also going to need to upgrade my fluke, but that's another issue.

That was actually my reply to Moose.

He was asking about battery testers for PM style services. In that case (lots of battery tests), I'd stick with a conductance style tester. For a homeowner just testing batteries in their own vehicles, and doing occasional charging system tests, a low(er) cost carbon pile tester would be more appropriate.

Both of those Midtronics testers are really only appropriate for testing batteries, IMO. The "alternator/charging system" testing that they do is just a voltage display, which is something your meter can do just as well. As far as what a carbon pile tester can do that a capacitance style tester can't do, it's pretty simple; apply an actual load, which is something you would need to do to do any real charging system analysis without resorting to high-dollar tools.

 

[Danglerb]

I'm thinking about one of the new style conductance testers, mostly because that is what will be used to check the battery if I want to warranty it. The Centech from Harbor Fright for $80 (no sale, no coupon) gets good reviews, the junkyard guys like it for a quick sorting of which batteries are worth taking.

http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-automotive-battery-analyzer-66892.html

OTOH full charge cold cell voltage seems to be popular among the off grid photovoltaic and golf cart crowd, so I expect it is just as valid of a test of battery "life". Fully charge the battery, disconnect it, let it sit for maybe an hour, and check the voltage, for me less than about 12.5v and its "done".

I still have found memories of taking my 928 to Sears for a battery check and watching the smoke roll out of their pile tester from its apparently fine group 49 (monster) battery.

 

[diesel research]

Oddly enough, as cheap as walmart is, their load testers are very high end units, the same unit that nissan specifies for OE work. Have used it (in some nissan/infinit factory training), pretty nice.

http://www.tooltopia.com/midtronics-gr8-1200ampkit.aspx

 

[oldtools]

You can try out the HF conductance tester for $80 (less with 20% coupon). Easy return policy if you don't like it. It got very good reviews.

http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-automotive-battery-analyzer-66892.html

 

[shampoop]

I do not like the capacitance style ones. They frequently are inaccurate. They seem to have been designed only so that shops can do a very quick and easy battery check on every car that gets an oil change. A testament to their inaccuracy is the fact that any battery that would be a warranty exchange has to actually get load tested. Often times a midtronics style tester will deem a battery bad, it gets warrantied and sent away and they do a real load test there and it says its OK, so the store doesn't get their warranty money back.

A load tester is more accurate and more versatile.

 

[Stick]

I do not like the capacitance style ones. They frequently are inaccurate. They seem to have been designed only so that shops can do a very quick and easy battery check on every car that gets an oil change. A testament to their inaccuracy is the fact that any battery that would be a warranty exchange has to actually get load tested. Often times a midtronics style tester will deem a battery bad, it gets warrantied and sent away and they do a real load test there and it says its OK, so the store doesn't get their warranty money back.

You do realize that most vehicle manufacturers have a Midtronics tester specified a as dealer special tool to check batteries for warranty replacement, right? Now these aren't the $200 consumer level units, they are often $1500+ diagnostic units. In order to warranty a battery from my suppliers I have to have a printout from a Midtronics style tester, complete with battery serial number. A resistance style load test with some numbers written down won't cut it.

Just because a battery fails one method and passes another doesn't mean that the battery is good, often it fails for a reason, and is caught well before it becomes a problem.

A load tester is more accurate and more versatile.

More accurate? Hardly. The only advantage a carbon pile style tester has over a capacitance based tester is the ability to supply a load when doing charging system tests, but the better capacitance style testers are capable of testing charging systems as well. I'd put a good capacitance style tester like a Midtronics GR-8 up against a good carbon pile tester like an Associated 6036B any day.

 

[shampoop]

You do realize that most vehicle manufacturers have a Midtronics tester specified a as dealer special tool to check batteries for warranty replacement, right? Now these aren't the $200 consumer level units, they are often $1500+ diagnostic units. In order to warranty a battery from my suppliers I have to have a printout from a Midtronics style tester, complete with battery serial number. A resistance style load test with some numbers written down won't cut it.

Just because a battery fails one method and passes another doesn't mean that the battery is good, often it fails for a reason, and is caught well before it becomes a problem.


More accurate? Hardly. The only advantage a carbon pile style tester has over a capacitance based tester is the ability to supply a load when doing charging system tests, but the better capacitance style testers are capable of testing charging systems as well. I'd put a good capacitance style tester like a Midtronics GR-8 up against a good carbon pile tester like an Associated 6036B any day.

All i've used are midtronics or sabre machines and I know exactly what you're talking about. I think that many places prefer the capacitance style machines because theyre is less room for human error or cheating to get your buddy a free battery in warranty. An old school load test is all up to the tech saying yep, the battery is bad. It's basically just his word.

I don't see how anything could be more accurate at determining the actual amount of amperage output of a battery then well.... Testing the actual amperage output of a battery! It's real first hand direct proof that the battery puts out X amount of amps.

 

[Stick]

I don't see how anything could be more accurate at determining the actual amount of amperage output of a battery then well.... Testing the actual amperage output of a battery! It's real first hand direct proof that the battery puts out X amount of amps.

You do understand what the relation of battery capacitance to amp output is, right? If you did, you wouldn't be making that statement...

 

[shampoop]

You do understand what the relation of battery capacitance to amp output is, right? If you did, you wouldn't be making that statement...

I'm sure there is a very clear and reliable relationship between the two. I'm basing my argument on two things.

1. Capacitance style ones are an indirect measurement of output, carbon pile testers are a direct measurement of output, I don't doubt that a capacitance style machine cannot be accurate, but I do doubt that setting user error aside, the could ever be more accurate than a direct measurement. I mean if you want to measure X, simply measuring X is more accurate than measuring Y, even if Y is usually very closely related to X.

2. Personal experience. I was once at a dealership and we had to test the batteries on new cars before they went on the lot. The midtronics testers VERY frequently said the batteries were bad. After you lit the car idle for a little while so that the batteries were at 100% instead of 90%, they would test fine. The midtronics machines also never worked on remote mounted batteries even though there was a specific mode for testing them. The guys there just said that it's just how it is even with different/new machines.

You can also very quickly and easily test a charging system with a carbon pile machine.

 

[scott37300]

So we have come to a conclusion that the new digital capacitance type testers are good for testing a battery only and are basically just a volt meter when using it for a charging system test. And the carbon pile tester is what one would need for a charging system test, along with a multimeter.

So looks like I will be placing an order with tooltopia for the carbon pile tester. Although the harbor freight one looks almost identical and might even be made in the same factory so I could pick that one up for 65 bucks. Not sure if any of the ones from tooltopia are any better or not.

Since we are on this topic, I am looking for something to test the battery and the alternator mainly. I will order the carbon pile tester for the charging system tests. But is there any reason I should also consider getting a midtronics battery tester to test batteries? Is there anything special the 120 dollar midtronics can do that the pile tester and fluke can't do?

Thanks again for all the info, I learn a lot on here everyday.

 

[shampoop]

The carbon pile testers I've used have built in voltmeters and ammeters. So there's no need to use your multimeter along with it. I would think most if not all are like that.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

You do realize that most vehicle manufacturers have a Midtronics tester specified a as dealer special tool to check batteries for warranty replacement, right? Now these aren't the $200 consumer level units, they are often $1500+ diagnostic units.

I tried to buy my friend's VAG main dealer tester. Hand held Midtronics unit, when he left the dealer it came home with him. £1,600!

 

[cortez]

In the old days when a missed day at work meant you got FIRED we used to drain the oil and disconnect the battery EVERY night in the winter time. In the morning we would heat up the oil some and put it back in. Then the battery was reinstalled and off to work!!

Yes we did this even when it was 20 degrees below zero Fahrenheit.

Yes you get used to it, and as most everyone done the same it was fail-safe as a jump was due to anyone who did their due diligence.

It takes a village and all that stuff.

 

[oldtools]

My friend has the HF carbon pile tester. I used it once and it seem to work fine. With conductance (or resistance) tester, good connection between tester and battery is very important. One good thing about conductance tester is it tell you how much cca is left in the battery. You would know if the battery is to go soon. With carbon pile tester, you don't know that. It could be good this week, but it could be bad next week. Conductance tester also compensate for enviromental temperature.

 

[richfinn]

We use Midtronics testers at work and once you get used to them they are pretty reliable and almost 100% accurate (sometimes it fails to ask you to remove the surface charge, this is usually a faulty battery) sometimes it will also ask you to use a current clamp for various charging/drain tests. Our company chose them because they test spiral/AGM/gel/lead acid batteries and you can also choose SAE/DIN/EN/JIS ratings and dont have to cross refer. If you choose to do a charging system test it will look at alternator ripple and amps if you are using the optional current clamp.

If I didnt get one from work I would buy one, you also need a infra red thermometer to confirm battery temp with the version I use, but there are simplified versions.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

That was actually my reply to Moose.

No, it's not true at all. I was giving the master advice on battery diagnostic tools.

Okay, i tell a lie, he was advising me..

In the old days when a missed day at work meant you got FIRED we used to drain the oil and disconnect the battery EVERY night in the winter time. In the morning we would heat up the oil some and put it back in. Then the battery was reinstalled and off to work!!

Yes we did this even when it was 20 degrees below zero Fahrenheit.

How long ago were block heaters and jump leads invented?

 

[Moose-LandTran]

We use Midtronics testers at work and once you get used to them they are pretty reliable and almost 100% accurate (sometimes it fails to ask you to remove the surface charge, this is usually a faulty battery) sometimes it will also ask you to use a current clamp for various charging/drain tests. Our company chose them because they test spiral/AGM/gel/lead acid batteries and you can also choose SAE/DIN/EN/JIS ratings and dont have to cross refer. If you choose to do a charging system test it will look at alternator ripple and amps if you are using the optional current clamp.

If I didnt get one from work I would buy one, you also need a infra red thermometer to confirm battery temp with the version I use, but there are simplified versions.

Next time i'm in Leeds (my sister lives in Headingley) you have GOT to show me that! Sounds like some serious badass machine right there.

(At my work they consider a Midtronics PBT-100 capacitance tester to be advanced..)

 

[richfinn]

Next time i'm in Leeds (my sister lives in Headingley) you have GOT to show me that! Sounds like some serious badass machine right there.

(At my work they consider a Midtronics PBT-100 capacitance tester to be advanced..)

I dont live too far away from there Im in Rawdon, I will get the Midtronics model number for you. I use a current clamp all the time for battery diagnostics if I ask the driver the correct questions and check initial battery voltage/current drain/charge voltage/charge current and compare how much current the battery absorbs I can predict what the midtronics will say almost everytime (sometimes its wrong).

 

[richfinn]

Things we have learned are, battery voltage needs to be above 12.2v (stable) after removing surface charge for 1 minute when you use a Midtronics unit. The unit might tell you 10 seconds but 1 minute is more realistic.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

I dont live too far away from there Im in Rawdon, I will get the Midtronics model number for you. I use a current clamp all the time for battery diagnostics if I ask the driver the correct questions and check initial battery voltage/current drain/charge voltage/charge current and compare how much current the battery absorbs I can predict what the midtronics will say almost everytime (sometimes its wrong).

That's impressive, are you effectively just calculating the results of a number of individual tests that the Midtronics machine does itself?

What kind of work do you do? (Main dealer? Fleet?) I think Morrisons main depot is around there, right?

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Things we have learned are, battery voltage needs to be above 12.2v (stable) after removing surface charge for 1 minute when you use a Midtronics unit. The unit might tell you 10 seconds but 1 minute is more realistic.

What method do you use to remove the surface charge?

 

[richfinn]

What method do you use to remove the surface charge?

Headlamps on dip for 1 minute is fine, I work for the 3rd largest retailer of batteries in the UK

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Headlamps on dip for 1 minute is fine, I work for the 3rd largest retailer of batteries in the UK

Thanks!

Third largest..

 

[richfinn]

thanks!

Third largest..

rac.