Best Load Center? AFCI?

[ddawg16]

I'm close to needing my load center for the 2-story addition to my house. I'm replacing my 200A 'hung on the outside wall' Murray box with a flush mount.

It will still be 200A...but at least it does not have to be where they can see it...new digital meter...

So I need a combination load center...200A, at LEAST 20 ckts...

I'm going to assume that the new AFCI's work in standard load centers? I have not seen anything that suggest otherwise.

So what brand do you guys suggest?

 

[MrMark]

Definitely Square D, QT I think is the name. Very nice. I think Home Depot has them. They at least have the breakers. I like the reverse all in one better than the combi unit with the breakers on the outside in the west coast style. That seems totally stupid to put your breakers outside where its a tamper risk and inconvenient. But that is how most are done probably because that is how most are done . . .

 

[MrMark]

Those Murray are trash. You'll be glad to be rid of it.

 

[Norcal]

Definitely Square D, QT I think is the name. Very nice. I think Home Depot has them. They at least have the breakers. I like the reverse all in one better than the combi unit with the breakers on the outside in the west coast style. That seems totally stupid to put your breakers outside where its a tamper risk and inconvenient. But that is how most are done probably because that is how most are done . . .

QO is NOT made in a "all in one" they were discontinued many years ago, Sq D only offers them in their HOMO line. IMO the only choice is a Cutler-Hammer type CH (NOT the BR trash) or a Siemens, GE, Goverment Electric is the new Zinsco.

 

[texasguy]

Norcal, from your postings, you are prob one of the more knowledgable electrical guys here (thumbs up). I imagine it's one of those things - if you don't do it often enough and get exposed to different options, you don't understand the pros and cons of what makes a good panel....or not. What do you look for in a panel and what makes one better than another? Thanks,

 

[mrb]

QO is NOT made in a "all in one" they were discontinued many years ago, Sq D only offers them in their HOMO line. IMO the only choice is a Cutler-Hammer type CH (NOT the BR trash) or a Siemens, GE, Goverment Electric is the new Zinsco.

there are still a few all in one QOs. QC2442M200C is one....

While the CH gear is nice, the cost of a 200 amp all in one is TEN TIMES that of a SQD Homeline. How can you justify the cost??

 

[mrb]

one thought is to use a meter/main and a CH subpanel, but the CH meter mains are still expensive. You could use something else for the meter/main but then you run into series rating issues if you need 22ka rated main.

 

[dittle fart around]

HD or Cutler Hammer are industry standards. They been around forever and you'll always be able to find breakers for them. Trust me I work for the government. At least I used to.

 

[mrb]

HD or Cutler Hammer are industry standards. They been around forever and you'll always be able to find breakers for them. Trust me I work for the government. At least I used to.

whats HD?

I get what youre saying about cutler hammer, and thats why we see panelboards with bolt on breakers in commercial installations. I wouldnt supply datacenter branch circuits for example with a homeline panel (or anything with plug on breakers for that matter) But in a residential environment how do you justify an $1800 meter combo over a $160 meter combo? As far as always being able to get breakers that argument weighs more toward homeline due to how widely installed it is.

Has anyone here experienced a substantial failure of homeline gear (note: aluminum bus gear should not be installed near the ocean, so salt corrosion would not count as an instance of failure I am looking for)

As much as I like the better gear (I am partial to NQ panelboards) and plan to replace the subpanel in my shop with a CH when i do it, I just cant justify the cost over homeline for a residential CSED unless its a project where cost is no issue.

 

[Aceman]

Why anyone would use an aluminum bussed Homeline is beyond me.

I'm partial to Siemens simply because we use them all the time. I don't think they're any better or any worse than most panels out there, they all seem like they're built pretty flimsy any more. But you can get them with copper buss and you know the breakers will be around forever.

I don't do much residential other than service calls so I'm not up on all the different kinds of resi panels they make. But I believe Siemens has an online catalog you can look through and see all the different options they make. Between meter mains and reversed meter mains, different breaker options, etc. It's worth taking a look if you trying to find something specific.

You just have to remember, if it's not common, and it's an order item it's usually more. 200 amp main breaker panels are a dime a dozen cause there are a zillion of them out there. 200 amp reversed meter mains, maybe not so much.

Find something you like online, take down the part number and see what the supply house can do for you.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Why anyone would use an aluminum bussed Homeline is beyond me.

I'm partial to Siemens simply because we use them all the time. I don't think they're any better or any worse than most panels out there, they all seem like they're built pretty flimsy any more. But you can get them with copper buss and you know the breakers will be around forever.

I too am partial to Siemens for the same reasons.

I don't care for the plastic bar that the breakers hook on, but they are all pretty cheesy now days.

I'm not crazy about those combined meter socket/disconnect/panelboards the western style stuff. If one piece burns up, you are stuck replacing the whole thing. I'd use a separate meter socket with a disconnect (combined for efficiency and looks), outside and a huge panelboard inside.

Charles

 

[mrb]

I too am partial to Siemens for the same reasons.

I don't care for the plastic bar that the breakers hook on, but they are all pretty cheesy now days.

I'm not crazy about those combined meter socket/disconnect/panelboards the western style stuff. If one piece burns up, you are stuck replacing the whole thing. I'd use a separate meter socket with a disconnect (combined for efficiency and looks), outside and a huge panelboard inside.

Charles

I like meter/main outside and loadcenter inside as well. If anything, it keeps from putting $500-$600 in new AFCIs outside.. Not common at all in So Cal though. Everything is combos. I dont know why...maybe it took hold with the zinsco combos installed in the postwar housing boom of the 50s and 60s and evolved into what we do here today.

 

[mrb]

how much is a good siemens 200a meter main loadcenter combo?

 

[Aceman]

There are a lot of meter mains out here, but there are a lot of trailers and manufactured homes. It's pretty common to have a metermain on a pole feeding underground to the panel in the home. So not really any branch circuit breakers are outside, except for maybe the well house/shed/garage if they have one.

I can't comment on how the AFCI/GFCI breakers hold up in an outside metermain because I really haven't come across any yet.

how much is a good siemens 200a meter main loadcenter combo?

I couldn't tell ya. I'll see if I can remember to ask our office guy, I don't pay as much attention to the pricing as he does.

 

[MrMark]

Why anyone would use an aluminum bussed Homeline is beyond me.

I'm partial to Siemens simply because we use them all the time. I don't think they're any better or any worse than most panels out there, they all seem like they're built pretty flimsy any more. But you can get them with copper buss and you know the breakers will be around forever.

I don't do much residential other than service calls so I'm not up on all the different kinds of resi panels they make. But I believe Siemens has an online catalog you can look through and see all the different options they make. Between meter mains and reversed meter mains, different breaker options, etc. It's worth taking a look if you trying to find something specific.

You just have to remember, if it's not common, and it's an order item it's usually more. 200 amp main breaker panels are a dime a dozen cause there are a zillion of them out there. 200 amp reversed meter mains, maybe not so much.

Find something you like online, take down the part number and see what the supply house can do for you.

That's what I had to do. I had to special order the Siemens with the copper bussing reverse all in one. It was pretty flimsy - real flimsy actually - and the hardware was really cheap. The breakers are also very loose when mounted in terms of side to side play. The Square D hardware on my other new subpanel was much stronger. Maybe that panel I bought was not representative of the Siemens line but I would go with Square D QO after that.

 

[MrMark]

I like meter/main outside and loadcenter inside as well. If anything, it keeps from putting $500-$600 in new AFCIs outside.. Not common at all in So Cal though. Everything is combos. I dont know why...maybe it took hold with the zinsco combos installed in the postwar housing boom of the 50s and 60s and evolved into what we do here today.

That's an interesting thought on the theft issue.

The reason it is done is the same reason many things are done - that's the way it is done and no one stops to put any thought into it. If you stop and think about it and ask the homeowner (educate) then you would do a separate panelboard inside.

 

[mtne]

I for one like Square D for resi applications. Never had a problem with one. No salt air here tho......

Now for a new service what are the requirements in CA regarding meter bypasses? CO now requires hot sequence with lever meter bypass for residential applications. The big box stores either have a meter housing for $130 or so then use whatever load center you like. OR they bend you over for a combo millbank (Seimens) for $406 and that only has 8 spaces. For just about $200 I just used a Eaton (cutler hammer) combo box that has 20 spaces and it was fairly nice all in all. I still wish you could remove the underground feed pathway and seal it all up tho. Just a thought..........

As for AFCI, I'd consider choosing whatever brand cost the least...... and use that load center. I happen to think they don't have the technology down yet. I've had to pull a few out where people wired lights on them and they trip about half the time when the switch is turned on or off. The main thing for them is that you can't share neutrals, so if your retrofitting to a system were the neutral is shared or the lighting wasn't kept separate from the power they don't work so hot. Keep hearing that they're getting better.... on revision 9 now is what I hear.

 

[mrb]

i checked the ESR book for so cal edison and they do not require bypass on single meter residential installations

 

[cowboyjosh]

Square D QO, still the best. Second best is Cutler Hammer CH line.

I try and stay away from low end residential **** like Homeline, Eaton BR, most GE, and Siemens products; even though 95% of all new homes come equipped with cheapest **** the builders electrician could round up.

 

[mrb]

Square D QO, still the best. Second best is Cutler Hammer CH line.

I try and stay away from low end residential **** like Homeline, Eaton BR, most GE, and Siemens products; even though 95% of all new homes come equipped with cheapest **** the builders electrician could round up.

i just wish there wasnt such a spread in pricing. an extra 100 or 200 to get a better panel is one thing but when its 1200, 1400 more?

 

[Gooch]

i just wish there wasnt such a spread in pricing. an extra 100 or 200 to get a better panel is one thing but when its 1200, 1400 more?

QO isn't too bad. I think I paid $150 for my 100 amp main breaker 20 space QO

 

[Norcal]

I for one like Square D for resi applications. Never had a problem with one. No salt air here tho......

Now for a new service what are the requirements in CA regarding meter bypasses? CO now requires hot sequence with lever meter bypass for residential applications. The big box stores either have a meter housing for $130 or so then use whatever load center you like. OR they bend you over for a combo millbank (Seimens) for $406 and that only has 8 spaces. For just about $200 I just used a Eaton (cutler hammer) combo box that has 20 spaces and it was fairly nice all in all. I still wish you could remove the underground feed pathway and seal it all up tho. Just a thought..........

As for AFCI, I'd consider choosing whatever brand cost the least...... and use that load center. I happen to think they don't have the technology down yet. I've had to pull a few out where people wired lights on them and they trip about half the time when the switch is turned on or off. The main thing for them is that you can't share neutrals, so if your retrofitting to a system were the neutral is shared or the lighting wasn't kept separate from the power they don't work so hot. Keep hearing that they're getting better.... on revision 9 now is what I hear.

Since Milbank has been brought up, their 200A main breaker is a Zinsco clone so I have no use for them, I still consider current production SQ D QO loadcenters cheap quality because of the plastic interiors, the prev. generation was very well built.

One thing that has aways annoyed me is where somebody installs a main panel of 1 make & another make is used for a subpanel, keep em the same.

 

[Aceman]

One thing that has aways annoyed me is where somebody installs a main panel of 1 make & another make is used for a subpanel, keep em the same.

Absolutely. I think that's a pet peeve of ALL electricians.

 

[ddawg16]

Just got back from HD. Was at Lowes on Sat...

All have basically the same offerings with about the same price....CH, SD and Murray.

My exisinting panel is wall mount....sticks out like a sore thumb.....so my choices are flush or semi-flush. I couldn't see why someone would opt for semi-flush over flush until I did the 'touchy feely'....semi-flush would be the choice if your was was 2x4 construction....a flush unit is too deep for a 4" wall. I'm building a 6" wall so I will go flush.

My next decision is a box with the meter on top and breakers below or meter on the side with breakers below and to the side.

I like having the door swing to the side....on my existing one, I typically remove the door if I'm doing any work because it will just not stay up. But I can see where water engress with the side door could happen and it looks like it might be a bit more crowded dressing the wires in that narrow channel. So with those issues...I think meter on top is my better choice.

Next decision...40/20 or 40/40. My current 200A box has 20 spaces....I'm using a little over half. The addition is only going to take about 3-4 more breakers...so I could see me having about 5 breakers left. The garage is feed with a 50A DP breaker.....if the garage needs more, I will add more breakers to the sub panel in the garage. The 40/20 panel will fit between two studs....the 40 space will take some extra framing. I'm leaning towards the 40/20.

Lastly....I pulled the covers off each one....all of them look to have the same color buss....AL. I already have Murray....it's fine after 11 years. The only flush unit they had in 200A was Murray.

I'm going to call my contact at one of the local electrical dist to see what that have and at what price.

I know...I don't even have the concrete poured yet and I'm worrying about this....but then again...one has to plan ahead to make sure I don't put something where the load center needs to be.

 

[mrb]

semi flush is also nice in that it has a KO or two outside in the bottom of the loadcenter side. good for future swimming pool and such.

go with a side by side.

I would be weary of 20 space thats going to go quick.

Have you considered meter main, then a 40 space subpanel inside?

 

[mrb]

QO isn't too bad. I think I paid $150 for my 100 amp main breaker 20 space QO

was that a meter/main/loadcenter combo or a subpanel? 200 amp QO combo is pretty expensive if I recall correctly. Really the only affordable ones are the tract home junk.

 

[Gooch]

was that a meter/main/loadcenter combo or a subpanel? 200 amp QO combo is pretty expensive if I recall correctly. Really the only affordable ones are the tract home junk.

Main breaker loadcenter. around here the main panel gets mounted inside and a meter box outside with just the meter in.

 

[kaffine]

Have any of them made a panel with a nuetral buss the breakers attach to? I figure with AFCI being mandated for all circuits except GFCI protected circuits that it would make sense to have a buss instead of wires.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Have any of them made a panel with a nuetral buss the breakers attach to? I figure with AFCI being mandated for all circuits except GFCI protected circuits that it would make sense to have a buss instead of wires.

It certainly makes sense to at least select a panel that has a Neutral bar on BOTH the LEFT and RIGHT sides so you don't run the wires all the way around inside the panel. Also neutral bars on both sides would be nice. Need a wider panel for all of that however.

Charles

 

[mrb]

Have any of them made a panel with a nuetral buss the breakers attach to? I figure with AFCI being mandated for all circuits except GFCI protected circuits that it would make sense to have a buss instead of wires.

yeah but then you have a whole new panel and breaker design which isnt necessarily a good thing. Plus the buss assembly would be wider.

 

[ddawg16]

semi flush is also nice in that it has a KO or two outside in the bottom of the loadcenter side. good for future swimming pool and such.

go with a side by side.

I would be weary of 20 space thats going to go quick.

Have you considered meter main, then a 40 space subpanel inside?

Yea....considered that....big problem....no good place to put the breaker panel in the house.

So....any reall good reason to not use Murray?

 

[mrb]

Yea....considered that....big problem....no good place to put the breaker panel in the house.

So....any reall good reason to not use Murray?

id use cutler hammer BR or SQD homeline before murray. The murray stuff is just junk. made for big box stores and little hole in the wall electrical distributors who cant get a distributorship for the good products.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Murray is owned by Siemens, and the breakers are exactly the same, interchangeable. Some of the panels are the same, some are different.

Charles

 

[cowboyjosh]

Murray is owned by Siemens, and the breakers are exactly the same, interchangeable. Some of the panels are the same, some are different.

Charles

Still GARBAGE!

 

[Gooch]

really if you want the best you should be putting in a Square D I-Line.

 

[mrb]

really if you want the best you should be putting in a Square D I-Line.

or some of the custom jobs from small shops like WA Benjamin

 

[Gooch]

really if you want the best you should be putting in a Square D I-Line.

or some of the custom jobs from small shops like WA Benjamin

On second thought, skip the I-Line, just finished up two identical 1200 amp services and in both of them SQD forgot to ship the bonding strap with the panel, was listed on the bill of material but wasn't in there. Nothing like spending $10k on a panel and they can't remember to put a $10 piece of metal.

 

[Norcal]

Murray is owned by Siemens, and the breakers are exactly the same, interchangeable. Some of the panels are the same, some are different.

Charles

They are NOT interchangable even though they are now both based on the late 1970's early 1980's Gould/ ITE design (Siemens bought ITE from Gould Inc. in 1984) there is no paperwork allowing them to interchange. Of the 1" design breakers I prefer the ITE/Seimens design, the Bryant/Westinghouse/Cutler-Hammer, BR is the worst, never have been impressed w/ SQ D HOMO line, GE is IMO, a Zinsco successor, I don't care for Murray but Siemens chose to copy a lot of Crouse-Hinds (Murray's prev. name) design for loadcenters instead of ITE's, Eaton is pushing the BR line instead of the type CH, so I lean towards Siemens for a combo panel if one like the one pictured below could not be found.