So Can Your Floor Do This and Not Have Any Damage?

[slickgt1]

So I just realized why my friends floor has these nasty giant scrapes.

I go to do my oil change yesterday. Grab the ramps, line them up, drive up them, press on the brakes, the ramps slide a bit. I am sure this happens to all of us from time to time. I know this happened to me before. Yea another reason why I love tiles. No damage at all.

Friends car from outside. He is the one that pulled the engine. Just throwing this in there.

Those wires hanging on the left are my neighbors. He has been cleaning them up for a year now. I'll give him till May before I get my snips out and cut all that **** off. He is a cool guys though, so I'll probably end up cleaning it up for him.

 

[nate379]

My $250 epoxy job has been holding up great. I did that about 2 years ago and have had all sorts of junk in my garage since then. Cars, trucks, tractors, boats, etc. Welding, torches, grinding, woodwork, etc.
It's a garage, floor is going to get beat up and oh well.

I did a little bit of tile last summer for a wood stove pad and those tiles where $3 a tile. Some cheaper ones for about $2. That would be well into the $1500 price range to tile my garage.

 

[Jack Olsen]

My tiles were 59 cents each.

 

[slickgt1]

Yea mine were .99 each, 1' x 1', grade 5 porcelain.

 

[89 FERRI]

Where did you purchase your tile ?????? Thanks Elliot

 

[Jack Olsen]

I got mine at Home Depot.

Today I had to drill a hole in my slab to determine its thickness. There are about 20 tiles I'm going to be taking out. To illustrate how different these tiles (and this kind of installation) is from your typical bathroom or kitchen tiles, here's a quick clip of direct hits with a four-pound hammer. You can see the camera jumping from the impacts.

CLICK HERE FOR THE VIDEO

 

[PecosBill]

That's fairly standard for well bedded porcelain on slab. The way to remove tile, in that situation, is to take a small chisel and break off a corner of one tile. From there, drive a wide blade chisel under the tile, and most of them should pop loose. A chipping hammer makes this process very easy. It's also a good idea to cut the grout joins on the outside of your demo area. This will help protect the tiles you are trying to save.

 

[Jack Olsen]

Thanks, Bill. Since I knew I was going to be taking these tiles out, it gave me a chance to be a little reckless with a hammer and find out what the damage would look like. All I wanted to do at this point was to make an opening so I could drill through the slab to confirm its depth.

Interestingly, the tile was also able to take several hits from a (swung) 16-lb sledge before I got it to crack. And it only cracked in the area right above the seam between two disconnected sections of the pad.

It's strong stuff.

 

[ct71rr]

Jack, your tiles are ceramic not porcelain, right?

 

[PecosBill]

Thanks, Bill. Since I knew I was going to be taking these tiles out, it gave me a chance to be a little reckless with a hammer and find out what the damage would look like. All I wanted to do at this point was to make an opening so I could drill through the slab to confirm its depth.

Interestingly, the tile was also able to take several hits from a (swung) 16-lb sledge before I got it to crack. And it only cracked in the area right above the seam between two disconnected sections of the pad.

It's strong stuff.

That is the benefit of porcelain. Pound for pound, it is denser than the concrete it is covering. Were the weakness lies is, it's a lot thinner. So when it is properly laminated to the slab, it can be extremely durable, since the loads it is subject to are under compression. Corners and any areas with voids under them, are the vulnerable areas. The only reason the corners are so vulnerable is, you are working on sheer. The part that is breaking off is moving laterally across the surface of the slab. I should have pointed out, that the corner is even easier to break off if the grout has been removed adjacent to it.

 

[Jack Olsen]

Jack, your tiles are ceramic not porcelain, right?

Correct. It's also rated IV for hardness, which is less than the hardest ceramic tiles.

The only reason the corners are so vulnerable is, you are working on sheer. The part that is breaking off is moving laterally across the surface of the slab. I should have pointed out, that the corner is even easier to break off if the grout has been removed adjacent to it.

Thanks. I need to take out about 27 of them, but my thinking has been to do that by NOT removing the tiles, since I also have to take out the concrete underneath them. I'll be renting a walk-behind concrete saw, so I'm planning on just cutting the tiles and the concrete at the same time. Is there any reason not to do it this way?

(Sorry about the detour to the thread.)

 

[e-tek]

Depends on what the saw does to the tile edge I guess.

 

[PecosBill]

If you are cutting clear through the slab, you need to remember that you are creating a cold joint. In the future, that cold joint will move. You need to remember that when putting it back together. Are you pinning the new concrete to the old slab? How are you handling that joint?

 

[Jack Olsen]

I'll be going under the old pad and also up alongside it -- and I'll also be drilling into the old pad every 12" for new rebar to tie into the old slab.

(But hey, I'm new to this -- so I'd appreciate any advice.)

 

[PecosBill]

I would align the cut so that it falls under a grout joint. I would then remove one tile outside that cut. I would install the new slab as you are planning, and then install a crack isolation membrane to at least 8" beyond the cut. After installing the tile, the smart thing to do would be to install a flexible joint filler in the grout joint above the cut.

 

[slickgt1]

I bought my porcelain at Lowes.

Jack, no worries about the detour. Curious why you are doing this though.

 

[Jack Olsen]

Thanks, Bill. Putting the cuts on the grout lines makes a lot of sense. Much easier to fix if there is too much settling.

slickgt1, the section is coming out for an in-ground lift.

 

[slickgt1]

Depends on what the saw does to the tile edge I guess.

You can always fix the edge up with a grinder. But the saw should leave a decent edge.

Jack, thats what I figured. Why now all of a sudden? Did you score a killer deal?

 

[PecosBill]

You can always fix the edge up with a grinder. But the saw should leave a decent edge.

If it's a glazed ceramic, then no, you cannot dress it to a factory type edge with a grinder. The way to avoid chipped edges is to choose the right blade. You want a constant rim blade, and not a segmented one. Segmented, or turbo, blades cut faster, and cooler, but chip much worse. When cut correctly, with the right blade, you can then dress the edge with a rubbing stone.

The better method is to cut at grout joints, though.

 

[Jack Olsen]

Porcelain is the same material all the way through, right? I suspect it would hold up much better than my tiles to direct, repeated hammer blows.

But let's keep in mind, an attack with a 16-lb sledge is a pretty high standard for any flooring material. I don't think most epoxies would stand a chance against it. And the cool thing about tile (keeping things on topic, here) is that you can simply drop in a new tile if you find yourself in a position where life pushed you to the point of taking a 16-lb sledge to your floor.

If I did cut through any of the tiles with the concrete saw, I'd just pull those tiles and re-set new ones cut cleanly with a tile saw or scored and snapped. But I think the smarter plan will be to cut along the grout lines.

The lift is tricky. Yes, it was a deal -- $450 for an in-ground lift is a deal, right? But it's not an all-purpose unit. It will only be used for my (lightweight) race car.

 

[slickgt1]

Is that an in-ground scissor, that lifts a platform? Looks like you need a project page. I dig it though.

 

[PecosBill]

Porcelain tiles can either be Through Body (same pigmentation trough the tile), or glazed, which have a colored or clear glaze over a neutral bisque. Through Body is usually better in a environment prone to chipping.

 

[cbr1000]

I came across this post as I'm trying to decide between stain and epoxy for my garage...guess I need to consider tile too. Wondering how the tile is holding up in the winter? I have a fair amount of snow dropping off my car in the winter and wonder if anyone that has tile is having problems with cracking grout from the water/salt/snow.

 

[4wd4ever]

I came across this post as I'm trying to decide between stain and epoxy for my garage...guess I need to consider tile too. Wondering how the tile is holding up in the winter? I have a fair amount of snow dropping off my car in the winter and wonder if anyone that has tile is having problems with cracking grout from the water/salt/snow.

X2, but I haven't even started construction yet...maybe over thinking?
But I don't really want tile...

 

[slickgt1]

I live in NYC. I did this tile winter. I have had snow come off my car, blown into the garage, water, ice, and all other wonderful **** from the outside. Everything has been great. All the snow does is wash my floor. I used epoxy grout, so I can't see any damage there.

I just cleaned my garage up last weekend so that I can start on my other wall closet/table build.

Here is how it looked vacuumed up. Finally.

So much more left to do, its a bit depressing.

 

[cbr1000]

your floor still looks great, seems to still have a nice shine too... I don't know anything about tile, I will not be installing this... it's just one of those things I don't want to mess up and it costing me twice as much to fix. Anyway, I have no idea what epoxy grout is, and as I'm looking at your picture I don't even see grout lines... I did a quick search. Home depot has epoxy grout, looks like you can go 1/8 to 1/2 inch. I'm sure this is going to sound stupid to you, but why don't I see grout lines in your picture?

 

[slickgt1]

your floor still looks great, seems to still have a nice shine too... I don't know anything about tile, I will not be installing this... it's just one of those things I don't want to mess up and it costing me twice as much to fix. Anyway, I have no idea what epoxy grout is, and as I'm looking at your picture I don't even see grout lines... I did a quick search. Home depot has epoxy grout, looks like you can go 1/8 to 1/2 inch. I'm sure this is going to sound stupid to you, but why don't I see grout lines in your picture?

It's probably the picture. There are grout lines, about 1/8" to 3/16" thick. You just can't see it. The grout is also mocha color, which looks like the darker tile. That makes the lines blend in.

 

[Jack Olsen]

If you go with a dark grout, you really don't need to worry about spending extra on epoxy grout or even a sealer. It's hard to put a stain on dark brown or black.

 

[cbr1000]

It's probably the picture. There are grout lines, about 1/8" to 3/16" thick. You just can't see it. The grout is also mocha color, which looks like the darker tile. That makes the lines blend in.

okay, that's what I figured...dark grout not showing up on pics...

 

[slickgt1]

If you go with a dark grout, you really don't need to worry about spending extra on epoxy grout or even a sealer. It's hard to put a stain on dark brown or black.

I did it for two reasons. I didn't want anything going through the regular grout to stain, leak or whatever. Plus I am in the NE area, and snow freezing on my floor is possible. I wanted epoxy as a type of "waterproof" if you will.

 

[litljay]

ok, So I've had VCT tile on my to do list in my new garage, but now I'm seriously considering ceramic or porcelin tile (as long as I can find it $1/sq ft. or less).

Question for the pro tile installers - what did you do at the expansion joints?

I have a 30' x 22' 3 car garage and there are 3 north/south expansion joints and 2 east/west.

Did you just use expansion joint caulk and mortar over the top of that?

tks for any help you can provide.

 

[Edger]

When you compare impact on tiles to epoxy you guys are forgetting something.

The epoxy is usually twice as hard as the concrete and it is the concrete that gives way under the epoxy which releases the epoxy on top and looks like the epoxy peeled.

Concrete crushes to fine sand and powder under impact, even when it has a heavy self levelling epoxy finish. If you use Jack's sledge hammer the concrete will powder underneath.

So epoxy is only as impact resistant as the strength of the concrete it is adhered to.

Just thought I would add that to stir the nest a little more.

 

[slickgt1]

When you compare impact on tiles to epoxy you guys are forgetting something.

The epoxy is usually twice as hard as the concrete and it is the concrete that gives way under the epoxy which releases the epoxy on top and looks like the epoxy peeled.

Concrete crushes to fine sand and powder under impact, even when it has a heavy self levelling epoxy finish. If you use Jack's sledge hammer the concrete will powder underneath.

So epoxy is only as impact resistant as the strength of the concrete it is adhered to.

Just thought I would add that to stir the nest a little more.

Yea but pounding with the sledge on a tile, the impact is spread, and I can assure you that nothing is getting crushed underneath.

 

[Edger]

Yea but pounding with the sledge on a tile, the impact is spread, and I can assure you that nothing is getting crushed underneath.

If the concrete was as hard as the tile there would be no problems. Concrete hardness varies like hell. Depends what mix, depends on compaction (vibrating), depends on finishing, depends on curing method and so on it goes according to more knowledgeable guys here than me.

So epoxy has no load spreading capability on the slab and tile does? Sounds right, do tiles win the argument then?

 

[PecosBill]

ok, So I've had VCT tile on my to do list in my new garage, but now I'm seriously considering ceramic or porcelin tile (as long as I can find it $1/sq ft. or less).

Question for the pro tile installers - what did you do at the expansion joints?

I have a 30' x 22' 3 car garage and there are 3 north/south expansion joints and 2 east/west.

Did you just use expansion joint caulk and mortar over the top of that?

tks for any help you can provide.

First thing is to be sure we are talking expansion joints. Many people confuse expansion, control, and cold joint. Expansion joints are a joint that goes clear through the slab, and are designed to move. They are necessary in large slabs, otherwise thermal expansion and contraction, and other stresses on the slab will actually break it apart.

Control joints are relief cuts placed strategically in a slab, and only cut a ways into it. The purpose of these are to direct any breakage, resulting from stresses to the slab to certain points. They also relieve some surface tension when the slab experiences thermal expansion and contraction. Many people are amazed to find out how areas of a slab can actually experience different E&C rates within just a few feet of each other.

And finally, cold joints, which are simply two different slabs poured at different times. Because of the different cure rates and pour mixes, these are highly susceptible to movement.

Cold joints are usually pretty obvious, and usually occur at additions. You can usually tell the difference between control and expansion joints by the edge of the joint. A expansion joint usually has a cushion (or roll) to it, while a control joint has a square edge, and is the width of a kerf, because it is cut with a saw blade.

As far as covering with tile, for expansion joints and cold joints, a expansion joint cover is the best option, but they are usually best to pro's, and they can be kind of expensive. They usually aren't really needed in a garage, as in a standard residential garage, the slabs are usually not big enough to need expansion joints.

Most of the time, when you are dealing with are control joints, and the best way to deal with them is to honor the joint through the tile, and then use a joint sealer (usually a caulk that matches the grout) to fill the joint. Another method, a little riskier, but the one I would use in a small garage is, to use a crack isolation membrane under the tile. A CIM spreads the point load of any stress under the tile, keeping a crack from telegraphing up through the tile. Of course, any major slab movement will crack through it. My preferred CIM is Mapei's Mapelastic 315. The beauty of a lot of these systems is, they also act as a waterproof membrane, so if you have floor drains, you actually have a system to remove water from the garage.

 

[Edger]

For all considering tiling, here's a great video on the correct way to ensure full mortar coverage to the back of the tile for full stength

 

[slickgt1]

If the concrete was as hard as the tile there would be no problems. Concrete hardness varies like hell. Depends what mix, depends on compaction (vibrating), depends on finishing, depends on curing method and so on it goes according to more knowledgeable guys here than me.

So epoxy has no load spreading capability on the slab and tile does? Sounds right, do tiles win the argument then?

Why, were we arguing? And if we are, yes it won for me. If I had to do it again, I would not change a thing. This is not an arguing thread. If you have something to show us about your epoxy floor, post pics. Show us how durable you made it.

So far my floor looks great with the **** ton of abuse it gets. I work by myself, so dragging **** over it is a constant thing. I don't think I would be able to make an epoxy floor as durable, and care free as I made this tile one.

Again, this is a thread showing durability of tiles for a garage/shop environment. For those people that are willing to do this. This is just to show them that tiles can and do hold up. The forum has enough epoxy threads, maybe 10 people with tiles. Maybe. If you want to show us the merits of your epoxy, start your own thread, you do not need to argue in mine.

 

[Edger]

Sorry Slickgt, I was not being sarcastic, I never meant it that way, I am kinda supporting you. I think it is great that you are comparing finishes. I put tens of thousands of sq.ft. of epoxy down when I was contracting - all in harsh conditions so I know a lot about its advantages and disadvantages, now I have no favorite floor finish. Whatever works is good which is why this thread about tiles is great, too much emphasis on epoxy at garage journal, there are other possibilities and tiles are certainly one.

 

[slickgt1]

Not a problem. Thanks for clearing that up. Yea after all the lurking on GJ, I only know of one other garage with tiles. Everyone knows him. He posted here too. Most people freak out when you tell them tile. They think bathroom. It really is a good alternative though.

 

[Edger]

Not a problem. Thanks for clearing that up. Yea after all the lurking on GJ, I only know of one other garage with tiles. Everyone knows him. He posted here too. Most people freak out when you tell them tile. They think bathroom. It really is a good alternative though.

My point was that epoxy is only as good as the strength of the concrete below it even though the epoxy is much harder. People do not realize that, they think that because it is strong their floor will stand up to abuse, however the concrete crushes under the epoxy, soft concrete crushes easily, hard concrete needs a heavier point load to crush.

Tiles are much harder than concrete it would seem and if the mortar under them is spread well I can see that they distribute the point loading over a larger area than an epoxy coat would do.

If you had not started this thread I would never have considered tiles for a garage although Jack has done a good job of convincing us too. I am now definitely open to tiles as a great alternative to a coating. Another thing people do not realize is that epoxy will buff and lose its shine, polyurethane will do the same, but not with tiles.