Ripping 2x4s: My Saw Struggles
- Thread starter Bull
- Start date
Dumb question: are there differences between blades meant only to be used in a circ saw and those meant for table saws? Just asking because of the wording on the online descriptions of blades I am looking at. Rlitman seems to have touched upon this issue, but with respect to chop saws, not circular saws.
Rockler gives pretty good reviews of the Forest Woodworker I and II blades for multi-purpose cutting. Apparently the blades are "hand made."
I'm still leaning towards a Freud. Hope to get one this afternoon so I can rip some stuff this weekend!
On another note: I just removed my old blade. I had no clue where the factory-supplied thin wrench was to hold the spindle while loosening the blade retaining nut. Then I remembered that just two days ago, I was cleaning up a large pile of dirt in my old barn that a woodchuck left there after burrowing up through my floor. I had found and tossed aside a thin wrench, and the saw used to live in there. I ran and grabbed it, and sure enough, it fit! Must be a sign that I was destined to change this blade this week
Rockler gives pretty good reviews of the Forest Woodworker I and II blades for multi-purpose cutting. Apparently the blades are "hand made."
I'm still leaning towards a Freud. Hope to get one this afternoon so I can rip some stuff this weekend!
On another note: I just removed my old blade. I had no clue where the factory-supplied thin wrench was to hold the spindle while loosening the blade retaining nut. Then I remembered that just two days ago, I was cleaning up a large pile of dirt in my old barn that a woodchuck left there after burrowing up through my floor. I had found and tossed aside a thin wrench, and the saw used to live in there. I ran and grabbed it, and sure enough, it fit! Must be a sign that I was destined to change this blade this week
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It has been mentioned before in this thread, by me and others, but just to reiterate: Be sure you have the right blade to slot alignment and fence to blade alignment (I actually align both the blade and fence to the slot). New or old blade, that alignment is critical.
earlthegoat2
Well-known member
Usually a blade meant for a circular saw will be smaller in diameter like 8" Most table saws are 10" blade capacity. I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with using a smaller blade than the saw can handle as long as the arbor fits correctly.
There are 8" table saw out there and there are smaller circular saws out there. Just replace the blade you have with a similarly sized one.
In my previous post I was trying to slam this point home as well. A dull blade can produce burn marks but if your saw is poorly set up it will ALWAYS produce burn marks. This is why you also need a higher quality fence because once a good fence is set up it will clamp back in to precisely the same position time and time again. A bad fence does not have this kind of repeatable accuracy.
There are 8" table saw out there and there are smaller circular saws out there. Just replace the blade you have with a similarly sized one.
In my previous post I was trying to slam this point home as well. A dull blade can produce burn marks but if your saw is poorly set up it will ALWAYS produce burn marks. This is why you also need a higher quality fence because once a good fence is set up it will clamp back in to precisely the same position time and time again. A bad fence does not have this kind of repeatable accuracy.
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It has always been my experience that when a saw is burning through rather than cutting through the material, the blade is shot.
These warnings did not fall on deaf ears. I have never done this procedure before, and do not have the tool you mentioned for doing it. So, I guess I need to buy one. But I sure hope I can do a few rips with the new blade before having to go out and drop money on that measuring tool to set up the saw.
A lot of the blades on the Home Depot website are described as 10" circular saw blades. Their websites don't respond to specifying "table saw" in the search. I wanted to see ahead of time what they have so I can just walk in there, grab it, and go.
Read it earlier. Great writeup. They do not say whether a circular saw blade can be used in a table saw. The most they say is:
A blade for ripping lumber on a table saw will generally have a high hook angle, where an aggressive, fast cut is usually what you want. Radial arms saws and sliding compound miter saws, on the other hand, require a blade with a very low or negative hook angle, to inhibit overly fast feed rate, binding, and the blade's tendency to try to "climb" the material.
Right, they explain it to you and expect you to understand the explanation, rather than spoon feeding it to you.
The higher the positive hook angle, the more the blade will pull the wood into itself.
If you do the research on various blades available, you'll find high-feed rate, dedicated ripping blades have a hook angle around +20 degrees. Lower feed rate blades are anywhere from +15* to +5*. Recommended SCMS and radial blades can be +5* to -10*.
The reason you use a low to negative hook angle on sliding saws is because you want to maintain control of the blade movement instead of having the blade trying to draw the wood into itself.
Do you want your circ saw racing away from you and/or shoving the stock into you? Or do you want to control the blade?
Research some specs:
http://www.freudtools.com/c-8-industrial-blades.aspx
rsanter
Well-known member
2 things
your blade *****. get a new one and a better one at that
also if that is a low end saw it was never intended to take that much of a cut for that long. cross cuts fine but long rips no.
lower the blade and take a cut 1/3 to 1/2 way through.
raise the blade and make another pass or 2 if need be
bob
your blade *****. get a new one and a better one at that
also if that is a low end saw it was never intended to take that much of a cut for that long. cross cuts fine but long rips no.
lower the blade and take a cut 1/3 to 1/2 way through.
raise the blade and make another pass or 2 if need be
bob
Professur
Well-known member
Odd ... dozens of people saying it's the blade, and not one suggested checking the blade's sharpness.
TMcCay
Well-known member
I finally spentthe money on a woodworker blade. My dad thought I was crazy being a life long carpenter but after seeing how well it cut and the smoothness of the cut for cabinet making he rethought his opinion on the blade. These blades are hand made and hand balanced, a real plus. Also came with instructions for properly setting up your fence for the saw. While conventional wisdom says the fence must be parallel to the blade in reality what is best is to have the front of the fence .002" to .003" farther out from the blade.
Now with my old Rockwell contractor saw this is easier said then done because of the piss poor fence that it has. One of these days I will build the Biesmeyer clone fence that I have plans for after I get done with building my new shop but for now I set the fence 1/16" out from parallel. It makes a world of difference and helps to prevent binding with the blade. You only want the front of the blade to do the cutting not the rear of the blade as tends to happen when the fence is parallel.
I haven't had to sharpen to woodworker blade that I have but when I bought it I received 3 coupons to apply to the sharpening if you send it back to them. Also if you buy a woodworker buy it from them not another party to receive the additonal info. I am not sure if you get it from a 2nd party seller.
JMHO.
Terry
Now with my old Rockwell contractor saw this is easier said then done because of the piss poor fence that it has. One of these days I will build the Biesmeyer clone fence that I have plans for after I get done with building my new shop but for now I set the fence 1/16" out from parallel. It makes a world of difference and helps to prevent binding with the blade. You only want the front of the blade to do the cutting not the rear of the blade as tends to happen when the fence is parallel.
I haven't had to sharpen to woodworker blade that I have but when I bought it I received 3 coupons to apply to the sharpening if you send it back to them. Also if you buy a woodworker buy it from them not another party to receive the additonal info. I am not sure if you get it from a 2nd party seller.
JMHO.
Terry
shoot summ
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2010
- Messages
- 2,960
When I am ripping 2x stock I use a cheap HF carbide blade:
http://www.harborfreight.com/10-inc...lade-with-titanium-nitride-coating-93893.html
Catch them on sale for 7 or 8 bucks, don't care if for some reason they get a chipped tooth.
The blade is going to be the most likely culprit, as stated the lumber and the potential lack of a splitter may contribute as well.
Anything else and I use a Forrest blade. I've used just about every blade on the market over the years and Forrest is the best.
http://www.harborfreight.com/10-inc...lade-with-titanium-nitride-coating-93893.html
Catch them on sale for 7 or 8 bucks, don't care if for some reason they get a chipped tooth.
The blade is going to be the most likely culprit, as stated the lumber and the potential lack of a splitter may contribute as well.
Anything else and I use a Forrest blade. I've used just about every blade on the market over the years and Forrest is the best.
Your attitude blows. Don't bother "helping" me in the future.
AdamH
Well-known member
Is this right? I thought it was the other way around, with the back of the blade being a tad bit further from the fence. This way the material has less of a chance of binding as you push it through.
MrMark
Well-known member
That's what I thought too. If anything, the back of the fence should float out a hair.
Re setting blade and fence.
you don't need any fancy tools for that. They are nice and make it somewhat faster, but not better. a few scraps of wood, a clamp or two or maybe a dowel rod or long bolt are all that's needed.
Just attach something to the miter gauge that slides in the table slot. Set it so that it touches the blade either front or rear. Slide and check fit to blade. Adjust blade so that both are the same.
Do the same to the fence.
Drink a cool one, it's lined up.
you don't need any fancy tools for that. They are nice and make it somewhat faster, but not better. a few scraps of wood, a clamp or two or maybe a dowel rod or long bolt are all that's needed.
Just attach something to the miter gauge that slides in the table slot. Set it so that it touches the blade either front or rear. Slide and check fit to blade. Adjust blade so that both are the same.
Do the same to the fence.
Drink a cool one, it's lined up.
Steevo
Well-known member
In the last ten years of DIY projects around the house, I have replaced my table saw blade three times and my miter saw blade four times.
Sharp blades are awesome!
Sharp blades are awesome!
TheGrooveking
Well-known member
With not reading the whole thead, my recemmendations are new blade and indicate the fence to the blade and check for parallellism.
TheGrooveking
TheGrooveking
Jeff
Well-known member
Bull...same issues except I have a cheapie Skil table saw the wife picked up on clearance for $39. Not to throw it back up in her face, I have used the saw faithfully for the past two years.
I had a contractor friend of mine go over the saw. We first ripped the guard off and re-tightened every fastener. Then we replaced the blade with a decent, and inexpensive Freud 30 tooth blade.
I did research the Forest and other high end blades, but I only use my saw 6-7 times a year. And that's only for small projects with maybe 2-3 full sheets.
I have learned to work within the limits of the saw. I measure 2, 3, and sometimes 4 times and I take my time as to not tax the motor. I already had some of those Cman roller stands so I use them as in and out feeds.
I had a contractor friend of mine go over the saw. We first ripped the guard off and re-tightened every fastener. Then we replaced the blade with a decent, and inexpensive Freud 30 tooth blade.
I did research the Forest and other high end blades, but I only use my saw 6-7 times a year. And that's only for small projects with maybe 2-3 full sheets.
I have learned to work within the limits of the saw. I measure 2, 3, and sometimes 4 times and I take my time as to not tax the motor. I already had some of those Cman roller stands so I use them as in and out feeds.
You can lead a horse to water. You can tell him to drink. But it doesn't do any good because horses don't speak English."Sorry Bull is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."
Sigh.
"Sorry Bull is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."
Sigh.
Time to find another forum.
Everyone in the thread is being helpful and decent, but you, as usual are...ah, what needs to be said?
Do a Google search for another place.
earlthegoat2
Well-known member
Yes, what he said. I did not mean you only had to use a dial indicator.
A steel rule graduated in 64ths can work as well.
rsanter
Well-known member
Im willing to bet that whats everyone is implying. that is what I meant
and get a new blade because in todays world its generally not worth sharpening a blade
bob
doing alignments with strings (google it), i've learned to appreciate a quality metal steel rule. i prefer metric, but this one has both (one side sae, one mm)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000SKW1LI/?tag=atomicindus08-20
can't beat the price and it really is a decent piece.
ahm
If your going to rip, get a rip blade,these will cut much faster with the grain.
You will have to change back to your finer blade for crosscutting though.
We used to run Freud 12" rip blades on our old Yates straight line ripsaw,
think they were an LM32 something or other.
You will have to change back to your finer blade for crosscutting though.
We used to run Freud 12" rip blades on our old Yates straight line ripsaw,
think they were an LM32 something or other.
Nope, not for ripping, you need a blade with a thicker plate and fewer teeth.
Kirbot
Well-known member
What kind of blade to get depends on what your going to be doing with the saw.
Are you building fine furniture where the cuts all have to be perfectly clean and smooth?
Or are you building the usual shop related stuff where it doesn't matter so much?
You can spend a fortune on frued and forrest and whoever else sells the really good blades. But chances are, it would just be over kill.
Just pick up any carbide tipped combination blade from the big box store, and you won't be disappointed.
Are you building fine furniture where the cuts all have to be perfectly clean and smooth?
Or are you building the usual shop related stuff where it doesn't matter so much?
You can spend a fortune on frued and forrest and whoever else sells the really good blades. But chances are, it would just be over kill.
Just pick up any carbide tipped combination blade from the big box store, and you won't be disappointed.
Duker
Well-known member
Bull, I am piling on to the thread for following reasons... 1.) to increase my post count and 2.) raise the ugly issue of another possible cause of burn marks...operator error! All of the suggestions above referenced great solutions.
Taking the time to align the top to the trunion/arbor, then the fence to the miter slot (better tolerances than just to the blade) and then the miter gauge to the miter slot will make using the saw much safer and offer better results. As a side note if you have a compression fence (older style that clamps to bars in the front and the back then you can set/shim the back side of the blade a hair wider. The reason this was done was that the older fences (bar style unisaw fence etc.) would deflect when tightened and bind the wood potentially causing kick back. Metal faces also didn't help if they were rusty or pitted causing drag. Newer style unifence or Biesemeyer type fences dont have this issue so can be set parallel. Already mentioned was proper blade for intended use and I will add for the material. The right blade extends the life of the blade by not trying to rip with a cross cut blade. Last but not least... Proper technique to feed the material and with a constant feed rate. Another poster mentioned that even a smaller (maybe even marginal powered) will cut most materials if the feed rate is proper. Dont try and speed a piece of wood through the saw with the wrong blade that has been stressed by drying to fast in a kiln like most 2x4's are (especially without a splitter) or the danger of kick back increases exponentially. In order of cost and preference for me are Forrest, CMT, Amana, and Freud. If your just an occasional user get a Freud blade from a big box store and it will work fine with the proper set up and operation.
I sharpened blades as a job in high school. I was always amazed the number of blades people brought in the were still very sharp but they complained left black marks whenever they cut a piece of wood. I would follow the good advice of the previous posters and then go out there and RIP SOME WOOD!
Again, I really added nothing new but look another notch in the posts!
Taking the time to align the top to the trunion/arbor, then the fence to the miter slot (better tolerances than just to the blade) and then the miter gauge to the miter slot will make using the saw much safer and offer better results. As a side note if you have a compression fence (older style that clamps to bars in the front and the back then you can set/shim the back side of the blade a hair wider. The reason this was done was that the older fences (bar style unisaw fence etc.) would deflect when tightened and bind the wood potentially causing kick back. Metal faces also didn't help if they were rusty or pitted causing drag. Newer style unifence or Biesemeyer type fences dont have this issue so can be set parallel. Already mentioned was proper blade for intended use and I will add for the material. The right blade extends the life of the blade by not trying to rip with a cross cut blade. Last but not least... Proper technique to feed the material and with a constant feed rate. Another poster mentioned that even a smaller (maybe even marginal powered) will cut most materials if the feed rate is proper. Dont try and speed a piece of wood through the saw with the wrong blade that has been stressed by drying to fast in a kiln like most 2x4's are (especially without a splitter) or the danger of kick back increases exponentially. In order of cost and preference for me are Forrest, CMT, Amana, and Freud. If your just an occasional user get a Freud blade from a big box store and it will work fine with the proper set up and operation.
I sharpened blades as a job in high school. I was always amazed the number of blades people brought in the were still very sharp but they complained left black marks whenever they cut a piece of wood. I would follow the good advice of the previous posters and then go out there and RIP SOME WOOD!
Again, I really added nothing new but look another notch in the posts!
VWandDodge
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2011
- Messages
- 951
Kirbot
Well-known member
Well if were talking 12" rules....
You can't beat starrett!
Nice sharp accurate edges, reads in 64ths, made in USA.
Every toolbox should have one!
Only trouble is....
There about $30.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00008IHTM/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Ah well, if you ever find yourself with an extra thirty bucks sitting around, they are nice.
You can't beat starrett!
Nice sharp accurate edges, reads in 64ths, made in USA.
Every toolbox should have one!
Only trouble is....
There about $30.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00008IHTM/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Ah well, if you ever find yourself with an extra thirty bucks sitting around, they are nice.
nate379
Banned
I had same problem with my saw even after a new blade. Well I got pissed and threw down the $25 for a decent blade instead of the $8 Dewalt blade and it rips 2 bys like butter now. I'm not sure the brand, went to the local lumber yard and they suggested it. They actually know/use the stuff vs Lowe's were it's usually kids working there... not that I don't mind the hotties that are running the cash though... 
Home Depot had one Freud 24 tooth carbide ripping blade available, so I grabbed it for around $25. I can't even find the miter slide thing for my saw, so I did not yet do the alignment procedure. But, with the new blade the saw performs much better. No signs of any burning whatsoever, either.
scott37300
Well-known member
Great news Bull
I found out when I first started buying saws that a good blade makes all the difference in the world. In most cases I would take a low end saw with a good blade over a high end saw with a cheap blade. In my opinion blades are worth every penny of their price, and I'm pretty cheap!
One thing I've always wanted to do is find a local blade sharpening place. Usually when I need a blade I need it right now so spend the 20-40 bucks for them. So I have a decent stock of good dull blades. Need to find a place and see how much they charge to sharpen compared to new.
mjozefow
Well-known member
Bull, paste wax the top of your table. It will greatly reduce the friction (and therefore the stick/slip phenomenon) and allow you to feed smoothly. In fact, paste wax it twice. Just watch out on the first cut while you get used to it as it will glide through quicker than you are used to. Watch the fingers.
Also, if your saw is a consumer grade direct-drive saw, then a circular saw blade will fit on the arbor. This will allow you rip just fine, but only in thinner materials. It allows for more mechanical advantage as well, but slows down the tip speed of the teeth.
Also, if your saw is a consumer grade direct-drive saw, then a circular saw blade will fit on the arbor. This will allow you rip just fine, but only in thinner materials. It allows for more mechanical advantage as well, but slows down the tip speed of the teeth.
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Frank The Plumber
Well-known member
You could try truing the blade to the table. This is a way for an inexpensive saw and fence to perform a little better.
Basically you you raise your blade as high as it will go, take a small square and get a point at the front and a point at the back 4" off the square face of the blade. You should have two marks 4" off the straight blade face roughly 6" apart. You now make a straight line that goes past them each way. You now take a fence marking tape, the thing with the numbers that you set your fence to at the front, and you place one along the front of the table and one at the back of the table. Now, when you align your fence to cut a 4" thick board, you will align the front 4" and the back 4" on the fence and check the numbers and lock the fence. This works nice because if you force against the fence on lesser saw many times the fence will drift causing the blade to be introduced at an angle to the material.
I am still a bit surprised that I am the only one thinking splitter as well as a good blade. And BTW a thin kerf saw works awful with a stock splitter. A lot of you guys must not be using the rip splitter and anti kick back locks. Oh well.
Basically you you raise your blade as high as it will go, take a small square and get a point at the front and a point at the back 4" off the square face of the blade. You should have two marks 4" off the straight blade face roughly 6" apart. You now make a straight line that goes past them each way. You now take a fence marking tape, the thing with the numbers that you set your fence to at the front, and you place one along the front of the table and one at the back of the table. Now, when you align your fence to cut a 4" thick board, you will align the front 4" and the back 4" on the fence and check the numbers and lock the fence. This works nice because if you force against the fence on lesser saw many times the fence will drift causing the blade to be introduced at an angle to the material.
I am still a bit surprised that I am the only one thinking splitter as well as a good blade. And BTW a thin kerf saw works awful with a stock splitter. A lot of you guys must not be using the rip splitter and anti kick back locks. Oh well.
nehog
Well-known member
For rips raise the blade as high as it will go... Double check that the rip fence is truly straight to the blade. I rest a straight edge (a level works well) against the side of the blade if I can, and measure from that and not the blade as some blades the teeth are not equally off-set.
Of course a sharp blade is vital.
I've ripped a lot of old 2x4s for driveway stakes when plowing, and I've seen what you describe with my saw when the fence is off, or the blade is not as high as I can get it.
trbomax
Well-known member
I buy the combo packs at lowes from dewalt. You get a ripping blade and a crosscut , both carbide, for about 20 bucks. Around here they last a couple months then I just throw them away.For the cost of sharpening I can just get new. I try to always have a pack of them hanging on the wall because its a 35mi one way trip to anywhere around here!
edit) I do keep one "special" crosscut that is used only for cutting frozen meat.
edit) I do keep one "special" crosscut that is used only for cutting frozen meat.
nate379
Banned
No splitter on my saw and no problems ripping lumber once I got the correct blade for it. I needed a wide kerf (nice and sturdy) and low tooth count, I want to say it's 18 or 20 tooth. Slices 2x4s, 2x6s, etc with ease.
cdncowboy
Well-known member
Get a Freud Diablo thin kerf rip blade, the thin kerf requires less power to do the same amount of work as a regular kerf blade and results in less binding as well.