Buying Machinery (Brand name specific) from the "older" days

[muibubbles]

I'm Fairly young (22) and I've grown a liking to a lot of the older machines as they have better quality, build and feel (IMO).

Given these machines are much older than me, I'm not too familiar with many of these brands. I was hoping to get a general list of top brands to look for. From the reading and research I've done it seems like these Brands are up there.

Metal
DoAll
Walker Turner
Pexto
Atlas
South Bend

Wood
Delta (seems like most fabrication/wood shops have a delta table saw as their main saw, is this a good assumption deltas is one of the higher quality ones?)
Atlas
Rockwell

Can some of you "older" guys recomend some more "quality tool brands" from the good ol' days?

 

[Outlawmws]

Atlas; made mills and drill presses for Craftsman "back in the day" as did many other companies. (King Sealy etc.)

Clausing; (who later bought Atlas) is still in business and can still provide some parts for the older mills, (Vert and horizontal), shapers (Metal, and nothing like a wood shaper) Lathes, etc.

Bridgeport; mostly mills

Colechester,

I think most metal working toll companies "back in the day" did a fair to great job, on their tools, as metal working was not then considered a hobbiests area. they made smaller tools for small shops with small part requirements, and a lot of these were made into dedicated machines for the war effort in WWII. Some were for ship board use (I have the base for a Horizontal mill with a USN name plate on it, and was probably on something small like a destroyer or submarine.)

Wood working tool son the other hand ran the gamut, as they do now. Craftsman had grades of power tool that ran from "Beginners tools" to professional level. Jointers for instance in the mid fifties, went from a small 4" units, of different grades to a large Pro class 6" Jointer almost 4 ft long.

Craftsman also made a multitude of different grade DP's with the larger chucks and deeper throats having all ball bearings to smaller units and bronze bushings instead of bearings.

So for metal working tools most of the older stuff is pretty well made. for wood working or crossover tools like a DP, there was a lot more span between the best adn the worst.

Having said that, most of the worst when new, could probably equal or surpass most of the Asian imports you see today at the discount tool sellers like HF and Jet wit hone exception. Guards. most tools today had guards and other safety features the older tools generally lack. Belt guards, anti kickback, blade guards, brakes, the list goes on and on.

 

[beardog]

For metal you can add Monarch,Cincinnati and LeBlond. All three have made very good machine tools.

 

[woody 73]

Being a young man myself I can pass on this story; years ago back in the sixties they had a fantastic company out of Tenn. that made some very nice woodworking machines and up untill a few years ago that company was making money hand over fist so to speak. Now the powers to be said we need to grow even bigger and make even more money, because money is the name of the game.

So they stopped making their machines in the USA and now they are coming out of china same name but a different location; such a shame what can happen with the stroke of a pen!

If you guessed the powermatic company you win the prize...only it will be made in china.

 

[bobadame]

For lathes also Hardinge, Rivett, Pratt & Whitney, South Bend. Saws also Kaamazoo, Marvel, Grobb the early Deltas. Drills, Cincinnati, Buffalo Claausing and many others.

By the way, I've been using a Turn-Pro, Taiwanese mill for about 6 years now that is as good or better than any Bridgeport I've ever used. Fire at will!

 

[IndyGarage]

There are a ton of old machines that were high quality. There were some junk ones too.

It really depends on what you want to do with it. Table saws haven't changed much in function in 60 years. Safety devices have been added, and some of the peripherals have improved, but an old Delta Unisaw is pretty good.

If I were a young guy getting into woodworking right now, you can find a screaming deal on a shopsmith on craigslist. They have been built for about 50 years, and they were good quality DIY machines - but not industrial machines. The basic machine was a table saw, drill press, disk sander and wood lathe all in one unit. They had add on bandsaws, planers, shapers, belt sanders and all kinds of other things.

They sold a lot of them to retiree types 20-30 years ago, and those retirees' heirs are wanting to get rid of them now - I see them selling for as low as $200-300.

As far as other woodworking equipment. Delta, Powermatic, Dewault (before black and decker bought them and made them yellow), Oliver, Walker Turner, Rockwell and Craftsman were all good brands.

Machine tools - there are dozens of great old brands: Kearney and Trecker (milwaukee), Monarch, Bridgeport, Hardinge, Cincinnati, Bullard, American, Warner Swazey, Famco, Lodge and Shipley, clausing, Gorton, Chicago Dries and Krump, Giddings and Lewis, Browne and Sharpe,

Actually Atlas and South Bend had products more on the "consumer" end of the scale than the industrial end, although South Bend built all kinds of stuff.

If you were going to buy an old metalworking machine there are some more useful than others.

Milling machine - a Bridgeport vertical is what everyone wants. They've made them for 75 years, and they've been copied, but not often equaled. For heavier stuff, a K&T or a Cincinnati horizontal mill will get it done.

Lathe - The holy grail is a Hardinge or a Monarch toolroom lathe. Monarchs are older and heavier Hardinge's are a little more modern and lightweight. For home use an atlas or south bend or clausing in good condition works fine.

 

[Jim C.]

As for woodworking machines, I've got several old Deltas from the late 1940s and 1950s, and I can't say enough good things about them. The Unisaw is a classic. There are tons of them around, and parts are readily available. The same can be said for most (not all) old Delta machines. My all-time favorite Delta machine is the heavy duty shaper.

I don't have any experience with Powermatic machinery, but I know they've got a pretty big fan following, and a great reputation, too. From what I've heard, they're solid all the way around. I also think Atlas made some great machines.

Delta, Powermatic, Atlas, and probably a few others I forgot to mention will serve you well. I personally like old Delta "cast iron."

Jim C.

 

[Jim C.]

Being a young man myself I can pass on this story; years ago back in the sixties they had a fantastic company out of Tenn. that made some very nice woodworking machines and up untill a few years ago that company was making money hand over fist so to speak. Now the powers to be said we need to grow even bigger and make even more money, because money is the name of the game.

So they stopped making their machines in the USA and now they are coming out of china same name but a different location; such a shame what can happen with the stroke of a pen!

If you guessed the powermatic company you win the prize...only it will be made in china.

Unfortunately, Delta, another manufacturer of some great machinery, is also putting its name on a lot of stuff coming out of asia. You're right. It's about the money.

Jim C.

 

[oldtools]

Check out...

http://www.lathes.co.uk/

 

[muibubbles]

so deltas quality has degraded? its best to get older delta stuff?

what do you guys think about dayton? at first i thought it was a good usa company but just found out theyre made in Taiwan... Specifically looking at a Dayton 14" bandsaw 4 speed model# 3Z981.. they guy is asking for 150...

 

[GarageEnvy]

The old Rockwell and Delta Unisaws are great. They recently redesigned it and gave it some nice new features. An older Powermatic 66 is a great saw too. However, as mentioned above, features like riving knives didn't appear until recently. How far you want to take this is entirely up to you but you can definitely get too commercial and heavy duty to be practical for home use. I recently looked into getting an Oliver table saw. To me it's the Cadillac but it's also 3-phase, has an inconvenient (IMO) fence and weighs over 1000 pounds so moving it around the shop is a bit more than putting your hip into it. I have a mixture of old and new in my shop. Outside of the cheap trunnion (which has now been changed) my Grizzly bandsaw is everything I could ask for. Also, my Jet DP is fine.

 

[muibubbles]

I dont mind industrial machines. I'm not looking for anything specific at the moment besides a horizontal bandsaw, everything else is just to keep my eye out for those once in a blue moon amazing deals... I'm in my last year of college and i plan to open up my own shop in like 10 years. I love tools so I'm giving myself a head start

 

[spongerich]

You should hit some of the local auctions. Woodworking and metalworking machinery often sells for scrap prices. Estate sales are also good.

 

[A_Pmech]

A_Pmech's machine tool buying 101:

1) Buy the biggest forklift you can get your hands on.

2) Buy the very heaviest one ever built in the size range you need, which nobody else will buy because it's a "beast".

3) Bacon?

 

[spongerich]

A_Pmech's machine tool buying 101:

1) Buy the biggest forklift you can get your hands on.

I do wish I had room to keep a forklift. Wrestling the 480lb band saw and 750lb mill that I got this summer by hand was a huge pain in the *** (and back)

To the OP, if you can find a place to store it, I would suggest looking for a small utility trailer with a drop ramp on the back... It's MUCH easier for hauling machinery than trying to lift stuff in and out of a pickup or in the back of a car. The few times I've left mine home, I've been sorry. Getting my South Bend lathe in and out of the back of my GTI was no fun. I bought mine new for around $500, but you should be able to find a use one for half that.... of all of the tools I own, my trailer has definitely been one of the most useful.

 

[G1K]

The grail:

R

 

[IndyGarage]

A couple pieces of advice on machinery.

1. The first person on hand with cash gets the great deals. The real screaming deals don't last long.
2. Getting a great deal on a bare piece of machinery is not as good as paying a bit more and getting lots of accessories. On most equipment, the accessories are worth more than the machine itself. This is especially true on metalworking machines. A $500 lathe with no tooling isn't worth anything. A $700 lathe with a digital readout, quick change tools, several different kinds of tools, a couple chucks and a steady rest is a screaming deal.

3. I get my best deals when something is wrong with the machine. Now you have to be careful here. Some fixes are cheap and easy, and some are expensive. I bought an electric forklift from a guy last summer, and he had a second one like it in the corner that he was going to throw in for basically scrap value. Well, an electric forklift is basically scrap if the battery is bad, and this one hadn't been on a charger in 4 years.
I knew this, and didn't really know how to fix it or whether it would even turn on if I did. It took me two days to get the battery to take a charge - and then it did, and the machine turned on. Over the course of several months, with quite a few small repairs, it now works great. I cleaned that sucker up, and repainted it, and it looks and works like new.

Be very wary of missing parts on old machines. They can be very difficult to find or pricey to replace. I bought a Bridgeport machine head a few months ago. Basically a J head, missing the motor and the aluminum motor housing, and a couple parts on the head. An official bridgeport motor goes for $500 and up. The housing is $300. New quill bearings are $300 - without installation. The other missing odds and ends are another $250. Now a rebuilt bridgeport head is $2,000 and up but you can easily see how missing parts can add up quickly. I found another more complete head for less than the parts, so I'll combine them and sell off whatever I don't need.

4. Right now is the best buyer's market I've ever seen for equipment - but there's a downside - the reason all that old iron is for sale is because even seasoned professionals can't make money with it right now. I was recently in an entire factory where gigantic old iron - Cincinnati mills, W&S lathes etc., is being scrapped out. It was sad, but you can't drag it all home. You have to be very selective I picked up a few things, but left most of it for the history books.
.

 

[IndyGarage]

Hey G1K is that your 10EE?

I'm sorry, but I must have seen pictures of yours, and last fall I stole your idea, and did one up exactly like that - same exact color - I think Valspar Allis Chalmers Orange.

I had to double take to see if it was mine, because they are identical. The only difference is that one has a collet head instead of a chuck, and for some reason my round dial is not brass, it's steel - which I wish was not the case, cause I like the way the brass polishes up.

 

[Stuart in MN]

The grail:

R

Here's one in the wild. This one is in regular use at a local train museum.

For high end woodworking machines, take a look at http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/ They've been in business since 1920, and have been building the same machines for decades here in Minnesota. Their table saws, jointers and bandsaws are incredible.

 

[G1K]

Yes, it's mine. I think my shade was kubota orange. I'd really love to see your orange one. Do you have any pics? What accessories do you have for yours?

Mine is a 1942 machine but it has all brass plates, none of the steel, aluminum, or cast zinc ones that the later war machines were built with.

Speaking of Bridgeport heads, I'm in need of some power down-feed parts. If you wind up with some extra, please let me know and I can come up with a list of the pieces I'm missing.


Ryan

Hey G1K is that your 10EE?

I'm sorry, but I must have seen pictures of yours, and last fall I stole your idea, and did one up exactly like that - same exact color - I think Valspar Allis Chalmers Orange.

I had to double take to see if it was mine, because they are identical. The only difference is that one has a collet head instead of a chuck, and for some reason my round dial is not brass, it's steel - which I wish was not the case, cause I like the way the brass polishes up.

 

[muibubbles]

A_Pmech's machine tool buying 101:

1) Buy the biggest forklift you can get your hands on.

BEST quote ever.

I do wish I had room to keep a forklift. Wrestling the 480lb band saw and 750lb mill that I got this summer by hand was a huge pain in the *** (and back)

To the OP, if you can find a place to store it, I would suggest looking for a small utility trailer with a drop ramp on the back... It's MUCH easier for hauling machinery than trying to lift stuff in and out of a pickup or in the back of a car. The few times I've left mine home, I've been sorry. Getting my South Bend lathe in and out of the back of my GTI was no fun. I bought mine new for around $500, but you should be able to find a use one for half that.... of all of the tools I own, my trailer has definitely been one of the most useful.

Ironic x2. About 2 weeks ago there was a forklift on craigslist for free. supposively had a dead battery. idk much about forklifts but im pretty sure fixing a dead battery is way cheaper then one would cost. unfortunately, i dont have room in my garage or anywhere for a forklift.

Ironic #2, i just told my mom today that i think its time for me to invest in a trailer hahaha

A couple pieces of advice on machinery.

1. The first person on hand with cash gets the great deals. The real screaming deals don't last long.
2. Getting a great deal on a bare piece of machinery is not as good as paying a bit more and getting lots of accessories. On most equipment, the accessories are worth more than the machine itself. This is especially true on metalworking machines. A $500 lathe with no tooling isn't worth anything. A $700 lathe with a digital readout, quick change tools, several different kinds of tools, a couple chucks and a steady rest is a screaming deal.

3. I get my best deals when something is wrong with the machine. Now you have to be careful here. Some fixes are cheap and easy, and some are expensive. I bought an electric forklift from a guy last summer, and he had a second one like it in the corner that he was going to throw in for basically scrap value. Well, an electric forklift is basically scrap if the battery is bad, and this one hadn't been on a charger in 4 years.
I knew this, and didn't really know how to fix it or whether it would even turn on if I did. It took me two days to get the battery to take a charge - and then it did, and the machine turned on. Over the course of several months, with quite a few small repairs, it now works great. I cleaned that sucker up, and repainted it, and it looks and works like new.

Be very wary of missing parts on old machines. They can be very difficult to find or pricey to replace. I bought a Bridgeport machine head a few months ago. Basically a J head, missing the motor and the aluminum motor housing, and a couple parts on the head. An official bridgeport motor goes for $500 and up. The housing is $300. New quill bearings are $300 - without installation. The other missing odds and ends are another $250. Now a rebuilt bridgeport head is $2,000 and up but you can easily see how missing parts can add up quickly. I found another more complete head for less than the parts, so I'll combine them and sell off whatever I don't need.

4. Right now is the best buyer's market I've ever seen for equipment - but there's a downside - the reason all that old iron is for sale is because even seasoned professionals can't make money with it right now. I was recently in an entire factory where gigantic old iron - Cincinnati mills, W&S lathes etc., is being scrapped out. It was sad, but you can't drag it all home. You have to be very selective I picked up a few things, but left most of it for the history books.
.

Very useful info. im 100% for #2 i was look for a metal lathe for a few weeks and finally found my dalton for $300 with an insane amount of tooling and acc.

 

[Jim C.]

so deltas quality has degraded? its best to get older delta stuff?...

Well maybe a little........The currently made Delta machinery is still pretty good, but a lot of it is now being made in asia. Those old Deltas and Powermatics are the REAL DEAL. Everything on them was cast iron, steel, and SAE. They were really heavy and made to last. Much of the newer stuff has a lot of plastic parts, isn't as heavy, and seems a little lacking in the fit and finish department. I really like the Delta machines from the early 1950s.

The trouble with those older machines is finding them in relatively good condition, with all, or most, of their original parts. Even still, many good machines still need some level of restoration. Most usually need new bearings, belts, lubrication, and a good cleaning. Some need more and that can go into cosmetic restoration which means spending more money. I usually avoid machines that need more than a mechanical overhaul. I also pass on machines that are missing major parts and/or components. Securing parts can get expensive. I also reject any that have incurred major alterations by a previous owner or have undergone major repairs.

Be patient, and look for the right machine. There's still a lot of good ones out on the used tool market. Once you decide on a machine, learn all you can about it prior to buying one. Know which parts are original, repaired, or are missing. The more familiar you are with a machine before buying it, the more you'll enjoy it after you bring it home. Do your homework.

Jim C.

 

[muibubbles]

Well said Jim. Like I said earlier, I dont need (much like all of us with our tool addiction lol) any of these tools, but I'm keeping an eye out to get familiar with the market, the going rate, and using this homework to get a better deal! I have plenty of time before I will really need to outfit my own shop

 

[IndyGarage]

Regarding the forklift. I would say a small one is much better than none. Actually in a garage a small die cart or genie hand lift is pretty good. I bought a 2500lb Clark that has a lot of years, but not a lot of hours on it a couple years ago. I don't know how I ever got along without it. I'll never not own a forklift from here on.

 

[camarotoolman]

"Wood working talk", has alot of wood machine discussions. I have several rockwell delta machines.

 

[Jim C.]

Well said Jim. Like I said earlier, I dont need (much like all of us with our tool addiction lol) any of these tools, but I'm keeping an eye out to get familiar with the market, the going rate, and using this homework to get a better deal! I have plenty of time before I will really need to outfit my own shop

I didn't mention it earlier, but the older machines can usually be had for less than the cost of a new machine. But like I did say, there's usually some restoration/repair/part finding, that goes along with them. Still, unless you buy a total "basket case" that needs a lot of TLC, the older machines usually cost less, and that's including some restoration/overhaul work. You also need to look at what you're planning to do. Woodworking? Metalworking? Both? Clearly, the more machines you have, the more versitile you can be, and that usually leads to wanting/buying more machines!!! Heavy machines can take up floor space quickly, so buy what you NEED first based on your interests, then branch out toward what you'd like to have, if space allows for it. I'm into woodworking, and I really like the machines that go along with the process of making things. However, lately I've thought that I'd like to try metalworking. With the exception of my drill press, that means a whole different collection of machines. Unfortunately I'm running out of shop space!!! Old machines (for wood or metal) can be a VERY slippery slope!!! Be careful out there!!! LOL!!!

Jim C.

 

[Steve from Socal]

A_Pmech's machine tool buying 101:

1) Buy the biggest forklift you can get your hands on.

2) Buy the very heaviest one ever built in the size range you need, which nobody else will buy because it's a "beast".

3) Bacon?

I couldn't agree more; this one is rated for 20K @36" LC or 24K @24" It also meets the criteria it is a 1966 model.

Steve

 

[IndyGarage]

Yes, it's mine. I think my shade was kubota orange. I'd really love to see your orange one. Do you have any pics? What accessories do you have for yours?

Mine is a 1942 machine but it has all brass plates, none of the steel, aluminum, or cast zinc ones that the later war machines were built with.

Speaking of Bridgeport heads, I'm in need of some power down-feed parts. If you wind up with some extra, please let me know and I can come up with a list of the pieces I'm missing.


Ryan

I'll see if I can get a picture up. Mine doesn't have much in the way of accessories - hence my advice above. It had a 3 jaw cushman, and I bought a 4 jaw and a QCTP. Mine has the taper attachment. Haven't done a ton on it yet, but it seems to be working fine. The one problem is I haven't been able to get all the oil feed tubes unclogged. I worked on them for about a day one time and thought I had them and then put it back together and it just clogged again.

I seem to be swimming in bridgeports all the sudden. I have a couple good M-heads and some J heads, and a couple of whole machines.

Unfortunately the feed parts are what are always missing. Let me know what you need and I'll take a look.

 

[muibubbles]

I didn't mention it earlier, but the older machines can usually be had for less than the cost of a new machine. But like I did say, there's usually some restoration/repair/part finding, that goes along with them. Still, unless you buy a total "basket case" that needs a lot of TLC, the older machines usually cost less, and that's including some restoration/overhaul work. You also need to look at what you're planning to do. Woodworking? Metalworking? Both? Clearly, the more machines you have, the more versitile you can be, and that usually leads to wanting/buying more machines!!! Heavy machines can take up floor space quickly, so buy what you NEED first based on your interests, then branch out toward what you'd like to have, if space allows for it. I'm into woodworking, and I really like the machines that go along with the process of making things. However, lately I've thought that I'd like to try metalworking. With the exception of my drill press, that means a whole different collection of machines. Unfortunately I'm running out of shop space!!! Old machines (for wood or metal) can be a VERY slippery slope!!! Be careful out there!!! LOL!!!

Jim C.

Jim- youre right on the money. I'm really fascinated by metal working and love to get morein depth with it. I like to design furniture so i definitely want to be versatile. I like the relationship of wood and metal together (or the idea of needing both machines for metal and wood! ahha) but the main guns will definitely come first. unless I find a smoking deal on perhaps a mill... then i might have to explain to my mother why there is a milling machine in her living rooom

 

[Nelson58]

The Monarch is the cadillac of home shop lathes to be sure.

One great site with a lot of info on vintage machines is:

http://vintagemachinery.org/

Check out the various brands. If you can't afford a Monarch lathe, for example, look at a Logan, or even a South Bend. A lot depends on where you are, the space you have, and what your budget is.


Nelson

 

[Packard V8]

The following are generalizations I've observed and follow:

The good news is quality tools and machines have never been more affordable, ever! I've been buying and selling tools for fifty years and there are more good deals at bargain prices than I've ever seen. Woodworking machinery is especially a bargain nowadays.

Reason is, the hard-working-with-their-hands depression/WWII generation are all gone and the sort-of-hard-working boomer generation is beginning to retire and die off. Dad or granddad dies and all his good stuff goes in an estate sale. The vast majority of younger guys don't want anything to do with tools. Video games, jet skiis, four-wheelers, expensive bicycles, skiing vacations and recreational drugs are where the money often goes.

I was at an estate sale recently where a lifetime of quality tools was going out the door in one day. The son said, "I never understood why dad wanted to mess with cars and woodworking stuff. Just make enough money to buy it new."

jack vines

 

[IndyGarage]

The following are generalizations I've observed and follow:

The good news is quality tools and machines have never been more affordable, ever! I've been buying and selling tools for fifty years and there are more good deals at bargain prices than I've ever seen. Woodworking machinery is especially a bargain nowadays.

Reason is, the hard-working-with-their-hands depression/WWII generation are all gone and the sort-of-hard-working boomer generation is beginning to retire and die off. Dad or granddad dies and all his good stuff goes in an estate sale. The vast majority of younger guys don't want anything to do with tools. Video games, jet skiis, four-wheelers, expensive bicycles, skiing vacations and recreational drugs are where the money often goes.

I was at an estate sale recently where a lifetime of quality tools was going out the door in one day. The son said, "I never understood why dad wanted to mess with cars and woodworking stuff. Just make enough money to buy it new."

jack vines

This is true. See my thread on Cincinnati machine tools throwing tons of old equipment in the dumpster. A whole lot of it is worth more as scrap right now than it is as machines.

 

[longlivepunk]

So, Bubbles? What did you end up buying so far?? I'm a young guy who loves old iron too, so I'd love to see your finds! I'm personally in love with the old Hardinge lathes right now, but I'm still getting the garage renovated before I can look at getting much of anything.

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Tree (mills)

Van Norman

Hardinge

Sibley

Acme

Boyar Schultz

Burgmaster

LaBlond

American

A few of the ones I've run...

 

[Whitworth]

I'd say avoid the more popular names and aim for less well known manufacturers. For instance, Bridgeport mills can demand a premium while better, but more obscure names like Excello and Tree can give more bang for the buck.

Paying $1000 for a machine in good/great condition with all the parts can be often times a better economy than the same machine at $500, but one that requires $$$ and time to restore.

And my experience, machinery dealers are no more better a source for quality, price or knowledge of machinery than a private seller off of Craigslist.

G

 

[Ainsley]

Scanned through the thread and didn't see any mention of old woodworking tools from general and canadian buffalo.

 

[sonvolt]

Favretto, Hitachi Seiki, Blohm, Brown and Sharpe, Glebar, Tschudin, Agathon, Micron, Cincinnati. I like my grinders, especially centerless !

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

I'd say avoid the more popular names and aim for less well known manufacturers. For instance, Bridgeport mills can demand a premium while better, but more obscure names like Excello and Tree can give more bang for the buck.

Paying $1000 for a machine in good/great condition with all the parts can be often times a better economy than the same machine at $500, but one that requires $$$ and time to restore.

And my experience, machinery dealers are no more better a source for quality, price or knowledge of machinery than a private seller off of Craigslist.

G

I totally agree with Whitworth.. I've worked quite a bit on a Tree and a Cincinnati Toolmaster vertical mill and they're just as capable (or more in the case of the Cincy, with more power feed options for the feed table than the BP). Even some of the rarer / better condition South Bend Lathes drive the $ to sky... my SBL pedestal grinder was...well... more than $100... 7.5X more ... because apparently they are fairly rare.. But.. I had to have it, and ultimately glad I did..

And don't forget to consider the availability of accessories (stead rest, collets, tool holders, chucks, etc. etc.). If you intend on doing a lot of different things those will become necessities and again their rarity may make them hard to find and / or $$.

One recommendation comes to mind that might matter.. My South Bend Lathe also came with a milling attachment which I have. It can serve, in a pinch, as a milling machine..somewhat limited, but for a ~$250 attachment you can do some fundamental milling on small parts on the lathe.. Same goes for OD/ID grinding with a tool post grinder. There are also wood lathe (rest) and drill press pads for the tail stock.. so...lots of different options and accessories.

Dennis