UV Durable Floors ? - Not Quite a Garage

[kibbins]

This forum is very informative and I've been reading all sorts of posts. I'm planning some flooring options but it's not quite a garage.

I have a 20' x 10' greenhouse and I want to coat the floor. The floor is new concrete (poured about 10 months ago), not sealed and has 2 floor drains. I would like to do this project myself and prefer to keep the cost under $500 (preferably much less if possible).

The greenhouse will be a sunny, hot & wet environment and the floor drains need to remain uncovered (lots of watering going on)...and the floor neeeds to be slip-resistant.

I like the look of Epoxy flooring, but if I read correctly most of the Epoxy floors yellow or "fail" in sunlight. I'm also not sure how the other (non-Epoxy) floors do in this sort of environment.

Any flooring recommendations out there from garage-land for a high UV environment??

 

[Jabberwalk]

Not a DIY, but you can have a Premiergarage floor installed for $600-800 and it is UV stable and can be low/no skid even when wet.

 

[kibbins]

Thanks but the budget and DIY requirements are firm.

 

[sneezer41]

In my dealings with other non floor epoxies, it has been explained to me that the sun reacts with non used catalyst in the mix, as most are catalyst heavy to make them user friendly. This causes yellowing or clouding or whatever. Coating with a UV stable topcoat is all that is required to remedy the situation, and I'll bet the good names have such a thing.

Automotive Clear is an example.

 

[kibbins]

SO far what I've been reading is that the Epoxy and many of the clear layers yellow. I'd prefer a single-layer non-clear-coat Epoxy if possible. I'm not familiar with Automotive Clear.

I've read threads about Epoxy yellowing, and one thread that the guy even had to remove it. Are there any photos out there of the yellowing? I'm just curious how bad it looks and/or if it fails or just looks bad.

 

[SC-Eric]

First, you need at least 1 layer of epoxy for protection and adhesion. You are going to using fertillizers that most urethanes cannot handle. Also, the hot wet environment is best served with epoxy or novolac products. Here is what you probably need to do:

1) Prep the concrete and prime with a good 100% solids epoxy primer.
2) Put a body coat on of a good 100% solids epoxy or novolac (if you can afford it) product. Broadcast Aluminum Oxide into the Novolac for anti-slip while the product is still wet. Backroll the Aluminum Oxide into the coating to color it nicely... Let that layer cure...
3) Roll one or two thin coats of an aliphatic urethane

You'll probably have to roll a fresh coat of urethane on the floor once in awhile when the fertillizer eats it off...

 

[kibbins]

And do these DIY prooducts have a name?

 

[Kevin54]

What about polishing and an acid stain?

 

[comp]

????? why does it need to be epoxy ,?

 

[thegarageguy]

it doent. Wolverines way is a very industrial and proven way to go but will cost more than under $500 than Kibbins is looking to spend.

You can go the polyurea route like jabberwalk mentioned but since I know the chemical cost, you'll need to find a starving polyurea installer with time on his hands.

or take a shot with rock soild dude and let us know the results.

 

[IDASHO]

What about polishing and an acid stain?

My thoughts exactly.

Or grind and polish

 

[Jabberwalk]

polishing concrete will be very slick when wet and may not hold up to chemicals used.

 

[kibbins]

My concerns too....again I want it to be DIY and somehow I doubt grinding and polishing concrete will eny up being a DIY project, at least not for me. I'd also be concerned about it being slippery. Given the humidity levels, irrigation and misting systems and I can guarantee the floor will be wet more than dry.

I'm not locked into Epoxy...I'm just looking for something durable, fertlizer/cehcmical resistent, non-slip, looks good, DIY and under $500.

 

[kibbins]

I'd love to see a photo of what happens to Epoxy in UV....i.e. what the yellowing/haze looks like----

Anyone?

 

[boiler7904]

Have you thought about a rubber tile floor? Products like Johnsonite's Roundel are designed for some chemical resistance and slip resistance. It might be worth looking into with a local supply house. Off the top of my head, I would guess that the material and adhesive would be around 2 or 3 bucks a square foot.

Unfortunately, the budget you've set paired with the area that you need to cover is going to make finding a viable solution difficult.

 

[epoxyman]

HI
FIRST IS THERE A MOISTURE BARRIER UNDER THE CONCRETE IF NOT YOU MAY LOOK AT A BREATHABLE SYSTEM LIKE A WATER BASE EPOXY TWO COATS YOU CAN BROADCAST A NON-SLIP IN TO THE FIRST COAT THEN SEAL IN WITH THE SECEND COAT IF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT UV USE A URETHANE COATING BUT IF YOU DO THE SYSTEM WILL NO LONGER BE BREATHABLE I THOUGHT MOST HOT HOUSES DO NOT HAVE DIRECT SUN LIGHT BECOUSE IT WOULD BURN THE PLANTS I HAVE DONE THIS IT WORKS GOOD. I DO HAVE ANOTHER IDEA YOU CAN COAT A ACRYLIC SOLVENT BASE SEALER DOWN TO COATS AND ADD A NO-SLIP THIS IS CLEAR AND HAS GREAT UV AND IS BREATHABLE I HOPE THIS WILL HELP IF YOU NEED MORE HELP EMAIL ME AT [email protected]

 

[kibbins]

Thanks...we have Johnsonite @ work and it's nice...although it has failed in many locations on our stairs. I have to check out the adhesive and see how it is for fumes and wet/fertilizer environments.

YES THERE IS A FULL FOUNDATION....and moisture barrier under the slab. (Sorry I couldn't resist the all caps look). I think the issue is that the Urethane is UV resistant but not durable. As Wolverine outlined above, I'd end up repairing/replacing the Urethane every few year.....and if you can imagine the mess of plants and shelves I'd have to work around...no thanks. Actually the direct sunlight is controlled by venting and shade cloth..and yes both will be in place. I'm trying to avoid maintenance and I think the Epoxy/Urethane maintenance will be significant.

All good ideas....please send me links of DIY products I can check out.

 

[connorB]

You can use Aliphatic Acrylic Urethane Gloss (2 part system), it has great UV protection as long as the water drains properly and not stands in puddles more than 72 hrs. The water will eat the urethane with long standing water. If it has no moisture barrier than psi moisture test needs to be done to find the correct vapor transmission psi in order to choose the correct breathable product. Ex. If the surface vapor tranmission has 31 psi and breathable coating system as a 15 psi vapor transmission than the coating will fail. Coating concrete is not easy. That why NACE offers a concrete course. So its hard to recommend without further testing and site unsight.

Glenn

 

[Fuller]

Kibbins,

I really think you should consider a pro application, even if the price is more than DIY. You have a pretty harsh environment there. Most DIY products are designed for light duty use and the really good pro materials are not available to the DIY market. Get a specific guarantee in writing for your end use.

 

[kibbins]

The Acrylic Urethane sounded intersting until the water-part. In the course of 72-hours a typical greenhouse will see 5 or 6 watering cycles and 3 or 4 misting cycles. I'd say with little doubt there will be water present on this floor constantly....so a non-water-resistant flooring is out. The floor has a full insulated foundation with a vapor barrier, but I'm not sure what the vapor transmission will be.

I have an epoxy garage floor that has done great....and that floor gets 2 cars, rocks, mud and indoor car washing all the time...not exactly light duty and it does great. My thinking was that the greenhouse floor would not see cars or that sort of traffic....I was thinking other than UV issues a garage-type epoxy floor would be perfect. Is there not a solvent-based epoxy that is UV resistant in the DIY market?

 

[SC-Eric]

I'd love to see a photo of what happens to Epoxy in UV....i.e. what the yellowing/haze looks like----

Anyone?

I can probably post up a pic on monday... send me an e-mail through 'Garage Journal to remind me...

So, why should it be an epoxy?

Simple... First, epoxies are know for their superior adhesion and chemical resistance. In general, when you compare apples to apples... epoxies have the best adhesion and chemical resistance for a low cost. I would not recommend polyureas in a fertillizer environment. We have fixed several failures at fertillizer plants where someone thought it would be a great idea to have a quicker cure... etc. Polyaspartics are WAY more expensive and won't be as chemical reistant as an epoxy of the same price.

Aliphatic Urethanes are going to fail over time... you'll have to recoat... Tiles are redundant because the concrete needs to be sealed to keep the liquid fertillizer from eating the concrete. Polished Concrete is NOT sealed concrete. Over time, the exposure will 'melt' the Sodium silicate filled pours and then degrade the concrete...

For what you want to do (Guys... remember... it's only 200 ft2):
1) Primer - 1 Gallon of 100% Solids Epoxy Primer (<$75)
2) Body Coat - 3 Gallons of 100% solids epoxy (<$225)
3) Urethane 1-Gallon (not needed... but... if you want it) (<$85)

I don't really think you need the urethane if you buy a good quality 100% solids epoxy... especially if the floor stays wet.

So, that puts the total material cost at: $300 + Rollers, Frames, Acid, Tape, Spiked Shoes... easily under $500

I really think that this project can EASILY be done for < $350

Is my math funny... Did I make a mistake somewhere?

Doesn't this plan give 8 mils of primer, 24 mils of body coat ??? That is plenty for this...

By the way, where are you located?

 

[kibbins]

The math looks OK....but none of the $350 products you mention have a name or link to buy them for DIY application. What am I missing?

 

[thegarageguy]

I can probably post up a pic on monday... send me an e-mail through 'Garage Journal to remind me...

So, why should it be an epoxy?

Simple... First, epoxies are know for their superior adhesion and chemical resistance. In general, when you compare apples to apples... epoxies have the best adhesion and chemical resistance for a low cost. I would not recommend polyureas in a fertillizer environment. We have fixed several failures at fertillizer plants where someone thought it would be a great idea to have a quicker cure... etc. Polyaspartics are WAY more expensive and won't be as chemical reistant as an epoxy of the same price.

Aliphatic Urethanes are going to fail over time... you'll have to recoat... Tiles are redundant because the concrete needs to be sealed to keep the liquid fertillizer from eating the concrete. Polished Concrete is NOT sealed concrete. Over time, the exposure will 'melt' the Sodium silicate filled pours and then degrade the concrete...

For what you want to do (Guys... remember... it's only 200 ft2):
1) Primer - 1 Gallon of 100% Solids Epoxy Primer (<$75)
2) Body Coat - 3 Gallons of 100% solids epoxy (<$225)
3) Urethane 1-Gallon (not needed... but... if you want it) (<$85)

I don't really think you need the urethane if you buy a good quality 100% solids epoxy... especially if the floor stays wet.

So, that puts the total material cost at: $300 + Rollers, Frames, Acid, Tape, Spiked Shoes... easily under $500

I really think that this project can EASILY be done for < $350

Is my math funny... Did I make a mistake somewhere?

Doesn't this plan give 8 mils of primer, 24 mils of body coat ??? That is plenty for this...

By the way, where are you located?

add $100-$150 for a diamond grinder rental (highly recommended)

 

[kibbins]

....and the product names are???

 

[SC-Eric]

Kibbins,

I'm specifically not recommending a particular manufacturer. There are TONS of them... I've told you what to look for. We do NOT sell to the general public at this time. So, I've given you generic answers that you can look for... Someone might make a more specific recommendatin if we knew where you were... what city, state.

 

[kibbins]

ahhhh.....well I plan to purchase on-line so my location probably doesn't mean much but I'm in the northeast if that helps.

So wait...how many of you are flooring vendors and how many of you are actual homeowners with actual end-user experience with a specific product??

 

[kibbins]

So wait...how many of you are flooring vendors and how many of you are actual homeowners with actual end-user experience with a specific product??

Boy did it get quiet in here after that question...

 

[comp]

Boy did it get quiet in here after that question...

 

[thegarageguy]

ahhhh.....well I plan to purchase on-line so my location probably doesn't mean much but I'm in the northeast if that helps.

So wait...how many of you are flooring vendors and how many of you are actual homeowners with actual end-user experience with a specific product??

I'm an installer and not a reseller. Just trying to pass on some experiences. Don't know it all, not a chemist. I'm still learning as I go along..

 

[Jabberwalk]

I'm an installer and not a reseller. Just trying to pass on some experiences. Don't know it all, not a chemist. I'm still learning as I go along..

Same here. I also have a background in floor prep and polishing from working at HTC

 

[SC-Eric]

I guess what you are asking is if we are credible...

Most of the applicators I've seen on here are pretty good. Us? Well... We're a manufacturer... an inventor of products with laboratories... My developments have been published in trade journals like Material Performance (N.A.C.E.). If you go to the hospital tomorrow and get an IV, there is an 80% chance that the person who made the IV was standing on our flooring material. The electricity that you are using right now may be protected by one of my coatings inside the safety system of a nuclear reactor. Today, I spent time specifying products for the US Department of Energy to protect an area at the Savannah River Site (Nuclear Waste Management). And last, while I'm not ACTUALLY a doctor, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night... lol...

In all seriousness, would you rather have a homeowner who has done a project or two in their life tell you what you need to do in your greenhouse or one of the 'flooring vendors or applicators' that complete multiple projects a day? How many homeowners in here do you think have experience with coatings in a greenhouse? Next week, we'll be involved in a greenhouse project that is 20 times larger than yours. This isn't exactly our first one and I bet these other guys know something about it as well.

I think that between me and the other guys on here... we can handle your 200 square foot greenhouse. Please research this term: http://www.goenglish.com/DontLookAGiftHorseInTheMouth.asp

 

[kibbins]

I understand that....and it is all good info that I do appreciate. My question was more related to conflict of interest and not credibility.

So far it seems like no one (vendor or otherwise) has much experience with a greenhouse....but I do appreciate both experience and personal unbiased opinions.

Wait...let me guess....you've done floorings that are horse-poop resistent too??

 

[boiler7904]

I understand that....and it is all good info that I do appreciate. My question was more related to conflict of interest and not credibility.

The two go hand in hand.

 

[SC-Eric]

Wait...let me guess....you've done floorings that are horse-poop resistent too??

As a matter of fact... we have... But, with horses it is more important to have a cushiony slip resistant surface. We've also got a product that is Rhino Horn Resistant... and... Chicken Poop resistant (which is really bad)... We also have a coating for 'Chimp' resistance which was recently applied at the Baltimore Zoo... We are involved in many types of Animal Containment... I've even developed coatings installed at Mote Marine Laboratory

So far it seems like no one (vendor or otherwise) has much experience with a greenhouse....

I'm not sure how many greenhouses we've worked on... it's probably less than 100...

My question was more related to conflict of interest and not credibility.

but I do appreciate both experience and personal unbiased opinions.

I kinda got to bust your chops a bit with the 'horse poop' question... lol... But, I think I know where you are coming from. The point I'm trying to make is... there ARE people on here that know what you need to do and are giving you free advice without a conflict of interest. I have not tried to sell you anything and won't because we don't sell to the general public and none of our existing applicators are going to be interested in a 200 ft2 low-tech project. In addition, the guys on here who are giving your surface prep advice are doing it for free.

I've seen good recommendations from:
TheGarageGuy & Jabberwalk (neither of them has ever bought anything from us)

Good Luck on your Project!

 

[Fuller]

Do you have a floor that's ******** resistant? You'll make millions and then you could do the Halls of Congress!

 

[SC-Eric]

Hmmm... Congress... I'm afraid I wouldn't even know where to start on that one...

 

[menz300]

I would go with a water based acid stain. It is a more green earth friendly product and you have a wide array of colors and fairly easy install. I would then add some non slip additive to the sealer. You should be way under your budget as I would bid a job like this at around $300 for 2 coats of stain if needed and 2 coats of sealer with anti slip. I would recommend you add floor wax on top of sealer as it protects your sealer. Just put a few coats of wax over it and re wax every few months and be a great looking floor.

 

[HiHoSilver]

I would go with a water based acid stain. It is a more green earth friendly product and you have a wide array of colors and fairly easy install. I would then add some non slip additive to the sealer. You should be way under your budget as I would bid a job like this at around $300 for 2 coats of stain if needed and 2 coats of sealer with anti slip. I would recommend you add floor wax on top of sealer as it protects your sealer. Just put a few coats of wax over it and re wax every few months and be a great looking floor.

I did not even consider staining as an option to refinish my floor, epoxy, polyurea or racedeck tiles are on my current list of options
can a well used older floor be stained, no pits or heavy stains, just used floor, floor is about 10 years old now, if so, what type of prep is required?

I have seen this done several times, but always while placing fresh concrete.

thanks

 

[smartneasy]

Polyurea is what you need. Check out rocksolidfloors.com. Should be $2.30 /SF or so.

 

[kibbins]

I would go with a water based acid stain. It is a more green earth friendly product and you have a wide array of colors and fairly easy install. I would then add some non slip additive to the sealer. You should be way under your budget as I would bid a job like this at around $300 for 2 coats of stain if needed and 2 coats of sealer with anti slip. I would recommend you add floor wax on top of sealer as it protects your sealer. Just put a few coats of wax over it and re wax every few months and be a great looking floor.

Thanks...but the thought of moving hundreds of plants every few months to re-wax in an environment that's almost always wet doesn't sound good to me.

I guess I should have mentioned maintenance-free as a criteria.