Craftsman Professional vs Raised Panel, measurements = yikes

[obsessive]

So I drove to the other side of town to buy a second set of Craftsman Professional wrenches, the 18 piece module set for ~$50. With a bunch of people here big fans of these wrenches, and 2 people adament about loose fitting and weak open ends, I broke out the calipers, again. Yikes!

Before I post the results, I'll repeat what I posted previously. A little over a year ago, I handled (bought and sold) quite a few sets of the USA-made Cman Pro wrenches, the 13-piece sets (now made in China). Out of curiosity, I did a bunch of measuring to compare them to my Craftsman raised panels. I found the Cman Pros that I measured at that time to be quite consistent, and with tighter tolerances than my RPs. IIRC, I measured about 6 sets.

Because I wanted the larger sizes, I bought for myself the 18 and 10 piece module sets, and the 7, 8, and 9mm individually. Those measured the same as the wrenches in the 13-piece sets - consistent and tight.

Yesterday at $54 I couldn't resist and bought another set. While moving my new wrenches from their box to my toolbox, I noticed the 1/4" looked thin. So I started comparing them to mine, and I found a few that were visibly thinner. Today I took measurements and pictures. These are all USA-made wrenches.

I used a HF caliper for measurements. While the numbers may not be absolute, the measurements were consistent and repeatable, and show the significant differences in the wrench sizes.

Here are the results:

This is my 10mm Cman Pro (10.02 tight), then the new 10mm Cman Pro (10.22 loose), then my 10mm RP (10.04 tight).

 

[obsessive]

This is my 17mm Cman Pro (17.04 tight), the new 17mm Cman Pro (17.25 loose), then my 17mm RP (17.22 loose).

 

[obsessive]

This shows the box ends of the 17mm Pros, mine is the one on the right.

 

[obsessive]

This is my 18mm Cman Pro (18.06 tight), then the new 18mm Cman Pro (18.28 loose). I don't have an 18mm RP, so I measured my 19mm: (19.30 loose!)

 

[obsessive]

This shows the box end widths of the 18mm Pros, mine 11.28mm, new 10.19.

 

[Buckgnarly]

Clear something up please. Were the "looser" Cman pros the china made, or just later model US ones? Can't really understand from the original post....

On a side note, is that HF calipers?(just a preemptive strike for accuracy)....

 

[obsessive]

This shows the open end widths of the 18mm Pros, mine 8.03mm, new 7.53mm.

 

[obsessive]

Here are the quarter inch Cman Pros, the one I noticed the most. Box end widths - mine .175", new .147".

 

[geologist]

Sounds like quite a QC issue.

 

[obsessive]

Open end thicknesses - mine .186", new .165".

 

[obsessive]

Open ends - my Cman Pro (.2505 tight), new Cman Pro (.2545 tight, but not as), RP (.2525 in between).

 

[obsessive]

More disturbing is the top of the new open end is short. Blurry picture, but mine (top) has even ends. The new one has a very short top.

 

[obsessive]

The other wrenches in the set were all fine, with 2 wrenches (11/16" and 3/4") actually measuring tighter and thicker than mine.

Here are a few more Cman Pro and RP measurements:

 

[obsessive]

You can see that my USA Cman Pros purchased last year all measure tight and consistent (between .02 and .08 mm over), and my Cman raised panels are all over the map, from .0025" over to .30mm over.

Unfortunately, it seems that a few USA Cman Pro sets got out that lack consistency as bad as my Cman raised panels. I'm guessing that's what ended up in the hands of 2 people here and (rightfully) gave them a bad impression.

What's the point of all of this?

Including my own, I measured about 8 sets of USA-made Cman Pros, and they were all tight and consistent. Today I measured one set that wasn't. That cleared up for me why the majority love them, but a couple of people don't.

 

[obsessive]

Clear something up please. Were the "looser" Cman pros the china made, or just later model US ones? Can't really understand from the original post....

On a side note, is that HF calipers?(just a preemptive strike for accuracy)....

All wrenches in this test were made in the USA.

Yes, HF calipers. They're consistent and repeatable. So even if the exact measurements are off, they do show the (unfortunate) large differences between the wrenches.

 

[obsessive]

Sounds like quite a QC issue.

Yep.

 

[Tarheelgarage]

Sears is getting rid of the last of the rejected CM pros that were culled from the herd years ago.

 

[Displaced Hokie]

Possible worn tooling - and why they are moving to China...no one wanted re-invest in the USA tooling. That may also be the cause of the goofy open end lengths. However, I can't see how worn tooling could account for the thin box thickness. Regardless, sad that they fit poorly. I have a few 15 yr Craftsman Pros that I really like.

 

[kxxr]

I have not seen this kind of comparison done to this extent before. On the one hand, I thank you for the information. It's very interesting. On the other hand, it's making me crazy wondering how other brands compare. Now who's gonna take some measurements of other brands to see if they suffer the same degree of variation from piece to piece. Since you're 'obsessive' that way, I nominate you

 

[diesel research]

Bummer, that really puts a damper on USA long pattern wrenches. I'm sure someone will come in speaking about raised panels never let them down, but they aren't long panels. Next step up in quality is quite a step in price (but may be dropping as more are rolled out?)



Please do some box end contact point testing? (markers on new fasteners)

 

[GoBlue]

RPs have never let me down!

If your looking for a good price on long pattern wrenches you need not look further than SK. A great American made tool at a fair price! They can be had for around $125 a set new...not bad at all!

 

[Chrislols]

Today I used my HF caliper to compare Kobalt wrenches, (look up my review thread), and the HF caliper measured every single snap on wrench i used as an example to a .00 MM exactly.

I trust it 100% after that.

 

[dkroth]

Can you post up a couple measurements on the length of the Pros compared to the RP?

 

[pipsters]

I've been saying this for months on here. Every time folks don't believe me. Thank you for taking pictures. I returned my two sets. I've been lambasted on here time and time again, but I keep repeating the same thing. The new polished USA wrenches are too big, and spread on bolts when used. My RP's are far superior.

 

[nomad69]

Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison.I was going to pull the trigger on Monday but for that bad a qc issue ill pass.

 

[lineman88]

This is a very interesting experiment. It would also be noteworthy to see the variation in the measurements of nuts from a different manufacturers - many of which I am guessing are made in China. Also, how the size varies with the age of the nut and even temperature. I doubt we will find a 19mm wrench and nut that are exactly 19.00mm. These variations may not be that significant in terms of the usefulness of the tool in actual usage. I just don't know enough about it maybe others do.

 

[j.c.whitney]

Agreed very interesting test; also agreed not every fastener measures exactly what it should so on average it is probably a wash.

 

[geologist]

Today I used my HF caliper to compare Kobalt wrenches, (look up my review thread), and the HF caliper measured every single snap on wrench i used as an example to a .00 MM exactly.

I trust it 100% after that.

 

[diesel research]

He said check his review

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130747

 

[geologist]

touché

Totally missed that while reading the threads. I've got too many windows open. =)

 

[scylla]

Obviously poor manufacturing.
But we must also keep in mind that a lot of fasteners are equally poorly made. I know I have run into quite a lot of nuts and bolts that are supposed to be a certain size, but are off sized.

Whoops. Didn't realize I was being Captain Obvious.

 

[obsessive]

Just to be clear, this thread was in no way meant to bash Craftsman Professional wrenches. I absolutely love the set I have. I also plan to keep the second set.

As I showed, the variations in Craftsman raised panel sizes are even higher than those of the Craftsman Professionals. I also mentioned that this was just a few of the wrenches in the set. 6 to be specific. The others were fine, with 2 having even tighter tolerances than those I already owned. So apparently QC isn't the best, and some wrenches get out that aren't perfect.

For me, this is in no way a deal killer. I'll go back to Sears tomorrow with the 6 out of spec Cman Pros and do a warranty swap with the singles. I'll bring my caliper to measure the replacements, of course.

That's the beauty of Sears and Craftsman, and their warranty!

While some people worry about future replacement, for combination wrenches I don't. I've warrantied sockets, a ratchet, pliers, and side cutters, but never a combination wrench. And at $3 a wrench, I still think these sets are a an absolute steal.

 

[obsessive]

I've been saying this for months on here. Every time folks don't believe me. Thank you for taking pictures. I returned my two sets. I've been lambasted on here time and time again, but I keep repeating the same thing. The new polished USA wrenches are too big, and spread on bolts when used. My RP's are far superior.

And I'll continue to disagree. 8 2/3 out of 9 sets measured tighter than raised panels. 6 wrenches had issues. That's a QC issue, not a reason to bash an entire product line.

And while your specific set of RP's did better than a few wrenches in the 2 sets of Pros you tried, the fit variance in RP's is even higher.

My raised panels served me for many years and their price makes them a great value. They're acceptable but they certainly aren't superior.

 

[obsessive]

Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison.I was going to pull the trigger on Monday but for that bad a qc issue ill pass.

I'll continue to recommend the Cman Pros. It just might mean an extra trip back to Sears to warranty replace any that don't meet your acceptable tolerances (now, before the singles are replaced with imports). Or buy a $10 HF caliper and bring it with you and check the wrenches in the parking lot before you leave.

Either way, the Cman Pros are still fantastic wrenches at a great price. This just means you might want to double-check them.

 

[obsessive]

Obviously poor manufacturing.

It's poor QC more than poor manufacturing. I worked in a high speed manufacturing plant for 10 years. Out of spec products get made. QC should stop them from getting to the consumer.

 

[obsessive]

Bummer, that really puts a damper on USA long pattern wrenches. I'm sure someone will come in speaking about raised panels never let them down, but they aren't long panels. Next step up in quality is quite a step in price (but may be dropping as more are rolled out?)



Please do some box end contact point testing? (markers on new fasteners)

We've seen hundreds of threads about QC problems with different brands, from Snap On to Harbor Freight. Bit of a bummer in that we need to double-check, but the long patterns are still beautiful wrenchs.

And for every post about raised panels never letting one person down, there are others who have stripped fasteners with them (including me). Could be the fastener itself or the wrench. Who knows?

 

[diesel research]

It's poor QC more than poor manufacturing. I worked in a high speed manufacturing plant for 10 years. Out of spec products get made. QC should stop them from getting to the consumer.

That is a lot of what can drive cost. All of the brands can make some examples that are to spec, and all have some that are "out of spec". At that point they have to decide what to do with the "out of spec". Let them out the door anyways? Or take a loss on them by scrapping/reworking and charge more for the good examples? Sell the best as one brand name/price and seconds under another name/price?


Anyways, thanks.

Can we have more testing like the alleged open end spread? The box end contact points?

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55449

 

[nomad69]

I'll continue to recommend the Cman Pros. It just might mean an extra trip back to Sears to warranty replace any that don't meet your acceptable tolerances (now, before the singles are replaced with imports). Or buy a $10 HF caliper and bring it with you and check the wrenches in the parking lot before you leave.

Either way, the Cman Pros are still fantastic wrenches at a great price. This just means you might want to double-check them.

My problem with bringing in one of my calipers is that all the single full polish wrenches are PRC made. I would swap them if I could but that's not an option.

My local Sears has almost all the USA made stuff that other peoples local stores no longer carry but in the screwdriver and Full polish wrench department i'm hosed

 

[blarf]

My problem with bringing in one of my calipers is that all the single full polish wrenches are PRC made. I would swap them if I could but that's not an option.

My local Sears has almost all the USA made stuff that other peoples local stores no longer carry but in the screwdriver and Full polish wrench department i'm hosed

And that's the beauty of the Craftsman warranty. Oh. Wait.

 

[pipsters]

And I'll continue to disagree. 8 2/3 out of 9 sets measured tighter than raised panels. 6 wrenches had issues. That's a QC issue, not a reason to bash an entire product line.

And while your specific set of RP's did better than a few wrenches in the 2 sets of Pros you tried, the fit variance in RP's is even higher.

My raised panels served me for many years and their price makes them a great value. They're acceptable but they certainly aren't superior.

The problem is you are including old wrenches in that figure. Of my two new sets, the wrenches I measured (10-19mm and 7/8", 13/16") were all .10 to .15 mm larger than the RP wrenches I had in that same size. People that are buying these in store will be buying the "new" lower standard wrenches like I did.

I will measure my RP's when I get home again and post up as well, I have the same HF caliper so the results should be pretty close. I do however agree that none of my RP's are on the .0x, they are in the .15 over range.

I am really upset I wasn't able to get an old set of Craftsman pros, from your measurements they were excellent wrenches for the $$.