I need help - building a small room with its own climate control

[Cheap5.0]

My 9-5 job is a manager of a wholesale ornamental fish house. Once of my main hobbies (moon lighting) is breeding fish, that i then sell to the wholesaler.

Ive toyed with the idea of building a small 12x8 room in my basement with a floor drain, proper electrical setup, and most importantly a separate climate control. Ideally id like to keep it around 80 F.

In my experience with other peoples fish rooms of this size, with properly setup systems humidity is not a concern so all i will need to do is control the temp.

Anyone know what kind of equipment i would be looking at? I cant seem to find the right word to search for when setting this up.

 

[trbomax]

I would frame the room,insulate it,poly vb (very important in this app) and if $ were not a real concern,finish the inside walls with white marlite sheets. Green board,taped on the outside. Use an entrance door, not an interior door. A bathroom shower vent fan would be good in the cieling ,control it with a humidistat. Run a 60a outdoor rated,surface mnt sub panel,and all of the electric in plastic pipe on the surface.That way you can change it at will w/o cutting the wall and your poly vb,and eliminate extension cords all over the floor. Use all outdoor rated boxes,switches and fixtures.Thats my first bunch of ideas,I know I missed something though., Oh ya,epoxy floor w/clear, a slop sink,and treated sill plate.I would set the interior wall covering up off the floor with either a custom bent wall base (my whole shop is this way) at least 6" high,or a GROUND CONTACT 2x6 around the bottom. Which ever you do,silicone or preferably buytl caulk the floor to the wall when done to keep any spilled water out of the wall surface. A proper floor drain would be nice but its probably too late for that!

edit) a cieling fan and two or three electric surface mount wall heaters located realitivly high on the wall. If you get tired of the fish, all you need is a co2 generator and you have a grow room!

edit #2) attach the marlite with ss screws and trim washers. Attach everythig else with ss screws as well.

edit#3) I would think that r-13 would be plenty because the temp differentail would be at most only 20 deg and no wind factor. I wouls put the kraft paper on the outside and the poly on the inside. The paper is really only a retarder and with the humidity in a basement moisture could concievably migrate into the wall. The paper will allow some breathability both ways. I guess this situation is like insulateing in florida where the vb is usually put on the outside. The poly would be a 100% barrier on the inside ,which in this case would usually be higher humidity than the basement.

I tend to over engineer things like this and spend more $ than are needed sometimes,but for a start, thats how I would approach it.

 

[Cheap5.0]

I would frame the room,insulate it,poly vb (very important in this app) and if $ were not a real concern,finish the inside walls with white marlite sheets. Green board,taped on the outside. Use an entrance door, not an interior door. A bathroom shower vent fan would be good in the cieling ,control it with a humidistat. Run a 60a outdoor rated,surface mnt sub panel,and all of the electric in plastic pipe on the surface.That way you can change it at will w/o cutting the wall and your poly vb,and eliminate extension cords all over the floor. Use all outdoor rated boxes,switches and fixtures.Thats my first bunch of ideas,I know I missed something though., Oh ya,epoxy floor w/clear, a slop sink,and treated sill plate.I would set the interior wall covering up off the floor with either a custom bent wall base (my whole shop is this way) at least 6" high,or a GROUND CONTACT 2x6 around the bottom. Which ever you do,silicone or preferably buytl caulk the floor to the wall when done to keep any spilled water out of the wall surface. A proper floor drain would be nice but its probably too late for that!

edit) a cieling fan and two or three electric surface mount wall heaters located realitivly high on the wall. If you get tired of the fish, all you need is a co2 generator and you have a grow room!

edit #2) attach the marlite with ss screws and trim washers. Attach everythig else with ss screws as well.

I lost it when i read that

Thanks for all the ideas. What about getting the temp where i want it? My gas bill is ridiculously low, so id like to use my furnace since i think it would add the least amount of cost for heating it.

 

[trbomax]

I dont know how you would regulate it properly You could regulate the airflow with 2 sets of shutters or dampers,one in a supply line and one in a return air line. They would have to be motorized but when the room called for heat the furnace would have to come on and then the whole house would get heat,even in summer. Electric would be the most controlable and then there would be the issue of isolation from the rest of the house. You would be mixing that fishy air thru the whole house if you used the furnace.

edit) there is the posibility that a long time ago I MAY have designed and MAY have built a couple grow rooms,or I just read a book.

 

[Cheap5.0]

I dont know how you would regulate it properly You could regulate the airflow with 2 sets of shutters or dampers,one in a supply line and one in a return air line. They would have to be motorized but when the room called for heat the furnace would have to come on and then the whole house would get heat,even in summer. Electric would be the most controlable and then there would be the issue of isolation from the rest of the house. You would be mixing that fishy air thru the whole house if you used the furnace.

edit) there is the posibility that a long time ago I MAY have designed and MAY have built a couple grow rooms,or I just read a book.

lol, no opinions on your personal interests here. I play with fish, what leg do i have to stand on Just not my cup of tea since i am very involved with the local sheriffs dept.

I thought there was some way to wire in a 2nd (or 3rd, 4th...) thermostat then have heat only pumped into that one area (room in my case). I guess not though, as that seems like it would be to easy lo.

I am a bit leary of using electric heaters, my electric bill is already crazy for some reason. I have tested all my electronics (except for the 220 stuff) with a kill-a-watt, and still my electric bill for 2 people living in a 1000 sq ft house is over $300 a month @ $0.11/kwh. I really dont like the idea of upping that number anymore that it already is.

 

[trbomax]

You have to have a fault or something. We do the 1600sq ft house and the shop with welders and 2 -7.5hp compressors for less than $200 most months. That includes 2 of the bedrooms that have elec heat and in the summer the house ac runs 2-3 months /year.

edit) The highest elec bill we have ever had was last august and it was $350,but the ac was running and I was building a groomer drag so the welder was on 6 - 8 hrs a day for 3 weeks.I ran about 50# of .035 wire on that project,grinders,wire brush,air compressor (1) for the needle scaler.

 

[admiraljkb]

I can't address the room requirements like trbomax , but I can add an option on the climate control. The ultra-efficient mini-split heat pumps from Mitsubishi and such function quite nicely for cooling, dehumidification and heat. I replaced my conventional gas furnace/AC in the house with a Mitsubishi upstairs (4 inside units) and an LG downstairs (with 3 indoor units). (hint, stick with Mitsu on these if you have a choice) At the end of a 110 degree day, the both of them combined were only sucking down 6A (approx 1.5A on each leg). That was less the blower motor of the old furnace which sucked down 8A at 120V. They do use more electricity in the winter, but it was easily offset by the gas bill staying constant rather than skyrocketing like it normally does, and they heat down to 14F at full capacity, and then the efficiency starts degrading, but some guy in Ontario is able to heat with them down to -20F, and I've not noticed any degradation for heat at 5F, although I'm massively oversized. (two 3 ton compressors, the house really only needs 3-4 tons)

If going that route, oversize rather than undersize. Normally that backfires in conventional heating/cooling, but since these are inverter based and run at just the capacity they need to, they're more efficient running at lower levels as they start to lose efficiency the closer they get to their BTU rating. It also gives some extra overhead for heat in the winter. At least those are my observations.

Here's a link for the Mitsu's for more research: http://www.mehvac.com/

When I started out down that path a couple of years ago, it was still kinda avante garde in the US, but Home Depot sells the Mitsubishi's now, so it is not as hard to get hold of. I'm now planning on outfitting the garage with another one, but haven't gotten around to it yet. It is an excellent way to get zoned heating/cooling without a lot of crazy ductwork. In my case, I got extra closets, and two attics worth of storage space by getting rid of the ductwork.

Good Luck!

 

[Cheap5.0]

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You have to have a fault or something. We do the 1600sq ft house and the shop with welders and 2 -7.5hp compressors for less than $200 most months. That includes 2 of the bedrooms that have elec heat and in the summer the house ac runs 2-3 months /year.

edit) The highest elec bill we have ever had was last august and it was $350,but the ac was running and I was building a groomer drag so the welder was on 6 - 8 hrs a day for 3 weeks.I ran about 50# of .035 wire on that project,grinders,wire brush,air compressor (1) for the needle scaler.

Would this be worth hiring a good electrician to look into?

I mean, ive exhausted all my DIY options...i too think $300+ monthly for our size living quarters is crazy @ $0.11/kwh. It does not make sense! A friend of ours lives near LA and pays around $0.30/kwh and his bill hovers around $300/month.

EDIT: While someone was placing a bid on our addition for the house, they mentioned that our electric hot water heater was run off of our main instead of its own meter (i guess thats the norm...?). Could that cause such a huge spike like what i am seeing?

I can't address the room requirements like trbomax , but I can add an option on the climate control. The ultra-efficient mini-split heat pumps from Mitsubishi and such function quite nicely for cooling, dehumidification and heat. I replaced my conventional gas furnace/AC in the house with a Mitsubishi upstairs (4 inside units) and an LG downstairs (with 3 indoor units). (hint, stick with Mitsu on these if you have a choice) At the end of a 110 degree day, the both of them combined were only sucking down 6A (approx 1.5A on each leg). That was less the blower motor of the old furnace which sucked down 8A at 120V. They do use more electricity in the winter, but it was easily offset by the gas bill staying constant rather than skyrocketing like it normally does, and they heat down to 14F at full capacity, and then the efficiency starts degrading, but some guy in Ontario is able to heat with them down to -20F, and I've not noticed any degradation for heat at 5F, although I'm massively oversized. (two 3 ton compressors, the house really only needs 3-4 tons)

If going that route, oversize rather than undersize. Normally that backfires in conventional heating/cooling, but since these are inverter based and run at just the capacity they need to, they're more efficient running at lower levels as they start to lose efficiency the closer they get to their BTU rating. It also gives some extra overhead for heat in the winter. At least those are my observations.

Here's a link for the Mitsu's for more research: http://www.mehvac.com/

When I started out down that path a couple of years ago, it was still kinda avante garde in the US, but Home Depot sells the Mitsubishi's now, so it is not as hard to get hold of. I'm now planning on outfitting the garage with another one, but haven't gotten around to it yet. It is an excellent way to get zoned heating/cooling without a lot of crazy ductwork. In my case, I got extra closets, and two attics worth of storage space by getting rid of the ductwork.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the words, i have no clue how heat pumps work...but im googling now and reading up!

 

[BigEd]

Think about a wine cellar climate control unit.

We built a wine cellar a couple of years ago for a customer
and used a unit made for that purpose. I don't remember the
name offhand, but it wasn't inexpensive.

 

[Cheap5.0]

Thanks, i think a found a few that might be what you used and yes they are not cheap!

When breeding tropicals (especially in cooler climates like me) keeping upfront costs and overhead down are crucial to being able to do it. You (me) are competing with breeders in Florida who are using ponds, and breeders in asia who are using cheap labor and tropical climates. The only reason i can do this is because of the advantage that is created by now having to ship my fish. I can offer a much higher quality fish because it goes through much less stress before delivery.

In short, i need to do this as cheap as possible if I am going to do it at all.

 

[Sureshot]

An insulated room inside of the house is going to be super easy to heat with electric. You could also add a second duct from the furnace if you wanted. I wouldn't bother with a vent at first. Just buy a dehumidifier and see how it goes.

Heck a tarped in area inside of a heated house will be easy to keep warm.

Why not just use tank heaters instead of heating the whole room?

 

[theoldwizard1]

First, let me comment on electrical. Keep the overhead light(s) on a separate circuit, possibly the current basement lighting circuit.

Second, depends on if you are going to have a couple of big tanks or a lot of smaller tanks. Big tanks need bigger heaters and pumps. If you go with smaller, you'll probably need the same amount of power, just more outlet. In either case, I would try to run a least 2 new 20A circuits. GFCI are a must. Mount the outlets high on the wall, like eye level. Power strips are fine for small loads, but make sure to add up the current draw.

Third, if you want to use your current HVAC system, you will need to split it into 2 zones. Any good HVAC contractor can do this, but it won't be cheap.

Probably the lowest initial cost is to use an electric heater and dehumidifier. If the room is
insulated, the operating costs should not be too bad.

EDIT: While someone was placing a bid on our addition for the house, they mentioned that our electric hot water heater was run off of our main instead of its own meter (i guess thats the norm...?). Could that cause such a huge spike like what i am seeing?

The cheapest way to heat water is gas (not propane) if you have it.

Putting your electric water heater on a separate circuit will only save money if your power company offers that service. Usually that discount comes with the power company's ability to tun off your heater for short (usually less than 30 minutes) periods.

 

[Cheap5.0]

An insulated room inside of the house is going to be super easy to heat with electric. You could also add a second duct from the furnace if you wanted. I wouldn't bother with a vent at first. Just buy a dehumidifier and see how it goes.

Heck a tarped in area inside of a heated house will be easy to keep warm.

Why not just use tank heaters instead of heating the whole room?

That makes sense, im just very hesitant about increasing the elec. bill at all. I know the basement stays around 60 year round, so heating it up 20 degrees would not be terrible, and it would be a small room anyways (and insulated should help).

I am currently using in tank heaters, but id like to free up some of my wall outlets and also make each tank identical as far as water parameters go. Right now i have a good 3-5 degree variation from tank to tank, and there is very little I can do about it.

Also the known failure rate of electric in tank heaters is pretty bad, regardless of what brand and how expensive. Removing them as the heat source would be insurance against losing $500 of fish from a faulty $30 heater.

First, let me comment on electrical. Keep the overhead light(s) on a separate circuit, possibly the current basement lighting circuit.

Second, depends on if you are going to have a couple of big tanks or a lot of smaller tanks. Big tanks need bigger heaters and pumps. If you go with smaller, you'll probably need the same amount of power, just more outlet. In either case, I would try to run a least 2 new 20A circuits. GFCI are a must. Mount the outlets high on the wall, like eye level. Power strips are fine for small loads, but make sure to add up the current draw.

Third, if you want to use your current HVAC system, you will need to split it into 2 zones. Any good HVAC contractor can do this, but it won't be cheap.

Probably the lowest initial cost is to use an electric heater and dehumidifier. If the room is
insulated, the operating costs should not be too bad.



The cheapest way to heat water is gas (not propane) if you have it.

Putting your electric water heater on a separate circuit will only save money if your power company offers that service. Usually that discount comes with the power company's ability to tun off your heater for short (usually less than 30 minutes) periods.

Thanks you! We do have nat. gas here, i will need to spend some time looking into the efficiency/usage costs compared to my electric heater.

I hear you on the GFCI's, they are a life saver in situations like these. I have already wired 8 GFCI's on 2 circuits for this purpose, and i run the lights off from the current basement light circuit.

Splitting zones, thats what i was wondering about! A friend used to do HVAC work in the area, and thats what he suggested but i had forgot the term until you mentioned it.

 

[Sureshot]

What about using a common filter, heater setup for all tanks. Pump the water out to a heating tank and filter and then a pump back to the tanks with a float shutoff or some type of apparatus(toilet tank,stock tank). All the water would be the same temp and all other qualities. May want to run a "quarantine" tank for any newcomers until they are proven.

Could also figure out something like infloor radiant for all the tanks with the piping either in or under the tanks depending if your tanks are all the same size.

Heating the air seems a waste and would make an uncomfy work enviroment(atleast to a Canuck). Heating the water would also eliminate alot of humidity issues.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Also the known failure rate of electric in tank heaters is pretty bad, regardless of what brand and how expensive. Removing them as the heat source would be insurance against losing $500 of fish from a faulty $30 heater.

Someone in the business must make a water temp alarm !

Thanks you! We do have nat. gas here, i will need to spend some time looking into the efficiency/usage costs compared to my electric heater.

Big savings ! Same thing with electric dryer and stove. Some builders got special deals for "all electric" houses. Doesn't help the guy paying the electric bill !

I have already wired 8 GFCI's on 2 circuits for this purpose, ...

Why ?

More than one GFCI on a circuit can cause problems. They are designed so that only the first outlet in the chain need to be a GFCI and the other are automatically covered. Of course if one goes out, they all go out.

You have 2 circuits, that's good. Put a double box at the end of each one with a GFCI outlet and a standard outlet off of the GFCI. From there run power strips, but attach them to the wall at eye level. I have even seen cases where the power strips were attached to a low ceiling, You want to keep all cords off of the floor.

 

[Cheap5.0]

What about using a common filter, heater setup for all tanks. Pump the water out to a heating tank and filter and then a pump back to the tanks with a float shutoff or some type of apparatus(toilet tank,stock tank). All the water would be the same temp and all other qualities. May want to run a "quarantine" tank for any newcomers until they are proven.

Could also figure out something like infloor radiant for all the tanks with the piping either in or under the tanks depending if your tanks are all the same size.

Heating the air seems a waste and would make an uncomfy work enviroment(atleast to a Canuck). Heating the water would also eliminate alot of humidity issues.

I see there is a fellow ichthyologists here! Hi ya buddy

A central system is a possibility, that i have not ruled out...but i would have to drill all my tanks and find temp holding for the livestock while i built the unit. I have bred saltwater fish before, and that is what i did with them...but that was because the tanks were already drilled and ready to go.

Now you have me thinking about doing that....maybe.

Someone in the business must make a water temp alarm !


Big savings ! Same thing with electric dryer and stove. Some builders got special deals for "all electric" houses. Doesn't help the guy paying the electric bill !


Why ?

More than one GFCI on a circuit can cause problems. They are designed so that only the first outlet in the chain need to be a GFCI and the other are automatically covered. Of course if one goes out, they all go out.

You have 2 circuits, that's good. Put a double box at the end of each one with a GFCI outlet and a standard outlet off of the GFCI. From there run power strips, but attach them to the wall at eye level. I have even seen cases where the power strips were attached to a low ceiling, You want to keep all cords off of the floor.

I have a nice automated alarm for the tanks, but with a pregnant wife that knows little about the mechanical side of the tanks and me being gone frequently it wont do much good if it does go off when im gone.

An once of prevention....


Why 8 GFCI's? Because i did not know better. Sounds like i have a mini project ahead of me now.

What is the max amp's you would feel comfortable drawing though those power centers? Id be looking at 4-200 watt heaters on each circuit, and one 32 watt T8 on one of them.

Thank you guys for all the help, im getting closer to my goals and i really appreciate it!

 

[Cheap5.0]

Big savings ! Same thing with electric dryer and stove. Some builders got special deals for "all electric" houses. Doesn't help the guy paying the electric bill !

Missed this, and thanks! Im trying to put a number on my savings, but its difficult since i have no idea how much my current heater is in use. Is there a way to determine this?

I could just compare the heaters side by side assuming they run 24/7 and then scale the savings down from there right?

 

[admiraljkb]

Missed this, and thanks! Im trying to put a number on my savings, but its difficult since i have no idea how much my current heater is in use. Is there a way to determine this?

I could just compare the heaters side by side assuming they run 24/7 and then scale the savings down from there right?

If you can find the model number, you *should* be able to google its rated energy consumption.

I can give you savings off when I swapped our electric clothes dryer for gas. The electric bill dropped about $15-20 a month, and the gas bill rose about $1-$2. Heating water, drying clothes and cooking are three areas where gas excels, and you can drop your overall utilities costs quick. Gas also does an excellent job heating the house as well, although the Mini-Splits in the last couple of years overtook it there. A basic gas hot water heater (with no frills) is much cheaper to run than a normal electric hot water heater. If you have an older hot water heater, the difference is even bigger. Return on Investment time on the gas dryer and hot water heater are both in the *roughly* 2 year territory. In perspective, that beats my 8 year projected ROI at current electric and gas rates with the Mini-Splits versus conventional HVAC.

 

[Cheap5.0]

If you can find the model number, you *should* be able to google its rated energy consumption.

I can give you savings off when I swapped our electric clothes dryer for gas. The electric bill dropped about $15-20 a month, and the gas bill rose about $1-$2. Heating water, drying clothes and cooking are three areas where gas excels, and you can drop your overall utilities costs quick. Gas also does an excellent job heating the house as well, although the Mini-Splits in the last couple of years overtook it there. A basic gas hot water heater (with no frills) is much cheaper to run than a normal electric hot water heater. If you have an older hot water heater, the difference is even bigger. Return on Investment time on the gas dryer and hot water heater are both in the *roughly* 2 year territory. In perspective, that beats my 8 year projected ROI at current electric and gas rates with the Mini-Splits versus conventional HVAC.

Thanks, we plan on getting a gas range next year but i think we should also drop the 13 year old electric water heater and get a gas heater after hearing this.