Between 265 & 485 SQ/FT 1950s Craftsman Garage retro remodel

[Red Leader]

Red Leader, a very interesting read, as usual. Good and instructive
reading over the holidays, so thank you.

Andy

PS: Our garage band plays vintage Ventures and Shadows music, so I have some Fender guitars. From the posts, I gather you play too. Great!

Andy,

I do indeed

Here is my setup:

2008 SG Standard LH w/ 57 classics
Marshall Valvestate 100 half stack

I've always loved SGs, and it is one of my inspirations for finishing the garage and the woodshop - to build custom guitars. I've always wished that Gibson would have made a neck through SG - so instead of waiting for something that will never happen, I'll just do it myself

 

[Red Leader]

Update Time!!!

So, I got some sanding belts for Christmas (thanks sister!) and here is what they go on:

I picked it up for $10 at a ReStore and once I got it home I figured out why someone donated it. It has tons of sparks coming from the brushes and the commutator, including some smoke and sluggish power.

I got it quite a while back and once I learned what it was doing, it got put on the back burner. Well, today no longer! Got it out, took it apart (it was FILTHY inside) and cleaned and reconditioned the commutator including picking out the grooves. I ran it for a little bit to re-seat the brushes, and now its perfect It tracks great, has good power. Couldn't be happier.

Since I got it up and running, I thought maybe it was time to start on the workbench again! I wanted to sand the 4x4 legs of the workbench before I just threw them together. If you missed the story on these 4x4s, basically...when we moved into the house last August, there was this old swingset back there. Who knows how many years it was up there for. In any case, my brother-in-law and I tore that down and I just had the wood sitting out for about a year, in the rain, snow, etc. Not being one to be wasteful, I decided to use the wood for my workbench project. It took about 2 hours to pull all the nails and junk out of the wood. I needed 8 'legs' for the workbench project, so I used my father-in-law's miter saw (sadly the C-man radial didn't come anywhere close to having the depth of cut) and got about 10 pieces out of them. I'm glad I cut extra...you'll see below

SO! The wife and son decided to go do some shopping with her sisters, so that meant I had about a 2 hour window to get some stuff done out there. I sanded down the 4x4s, not really sure of what I was going to get. Here is how it turned out:

Its got some of the old gray color where it weathered, along with some fresh exposed wood where the grain stood up and was sanded down. I mainly wanted to do this so that I could make cleaner passes on the table router, but this is how it ended up.



Good? Bad? Ugly?

Who knows. I'll be waiting to see what it looks like with some finish on it. If it is absolutely hideous, I'll just paint them black, but I am a fan of cool and unique wood grain, and these legs now definitely are a closer match to the beetle kill pine that will be going on the top.

Now it was routing time. I have my cast iron router table extension now set up on the Craftsman cabinet saw:

I had to fabricate the installation of it on the C-man fence in those 2 hours too

A close-up of the bit I am using:

Once I routed a rounded edge on them, I looked through the grain and picked out this scheme for how they will go together:

I labeled them in a code, hopeless for any other to decipher, so that I knew their order:

Now, my initial design incorporated channels routed into the 4x4s right past the edges of the rounded corners to join the plywood sides of the lower cabinets together (mainly non-structural). Then the plan was to add 2x4s in a staggered square pattern inside to give it the rigidity it needed.

Here is were I made ONE OF THE BEST DECISIONS I've made in a LONG time in the garage - I forcefully told myself to start on the very back 4x4s as a 'test run', so that just in case anything happened, I could practice first on the back where they would be a little more 'hidden'

Well, I'm glad I did that

I used a 1/2" channel bit in the router and it basically died haha. Here was my setup:

I was definitely burning wood and it was very unsuccessful. I got through 1 with some smoke, and then it choked on the second one.

This was the good one. I noticed that it was pushing the router pretty hard to make that channel, so on the next 4x4, I decided to take a shallower pass. Nope. Nada. No good!

Plumes of smoke rose from the router. Not only that, but the fence on my table saw shifted on the second leg and here is the result:

By daveamy at 2011-12-27

Yep, ugly ugly ugly!

I don't know exactly what went wrong. It might have been that the bit was dull. I switched to a duplicate bit (non carbide tipped) and the same thing happened. Maybe trying to take off too much material? Maybe my feed rate? Nothing was working.

So...now I had 1 routed leg, 1 destroyed leg, and pretty much couldn't do the others. Normally, this would have been a major piss off. However...remember those 2 other 'extra' legs that I had cut? Ohh yeah!!! Saved.

This time, I decided I needed another approach. Therefore, I pulled down some 2x2 stock that I had been saving for whatever up in the rafters. I needed exactly 16 pieces (2 per leg) to act as joints to attach things together. Guess how many I had? 17

Here is the basic concept (minus the plywood):

I cut them to length on the table saw, and actually, 2 inches shorter than the main legs. Basically, to get that true 'art deco' look, I wanted to have the main legs go all the way to the ground, but have the cabinet suspended up a few inches. I was originally going to do this on the slots to be routed, but it meant routing about 2 inches short on each pass and doing them all the same. I realized this was impossible when I went to route the second channel on the 1st leg and realized that I had to reverse directions to do the pass...starting from both ends doesn't allow the route channel stopped short of either end...whoops So that idea went out the water, but since that system is abandoned now, I'm implementing it again. Its hard to explain, but will be clear when I show pictures.

Here are the joiners/spacers/attachers that will be used to hook everything together, 32" and pre-drilled with 3 holes:

I'm hoping maybe I'll get a chance to work on it a little more tomorrow. If so, the task would be attaching the joints, cutting the plywood to size, and actually building the main cabinet. I've got a few other things on my list as well - get the wood lathe going, get the bandsaw going, keep working on the Craftsman tool chest, etc.

No break anytime soon

 

[machine_punk]

Hey! I thought it was too cold to work in the garage...but I am pleased to see you making progress on the bench.

It's taken me a LONG time to get to the point where I realize that there are certain things you have to do to produce quality results. I'm sure I have plenty left to learn in that department, but the one thing I have figured out, is using test pieces (which you did, just not 'on purpose.') I try to never perform a cut or procedure on a piece, until I practice it on a similar piece (which is what I do with my big pile of offcuts). I know it takes a little more time, but it has saved my bacon more than once.

I think you'll be pleased with the look of that weathered wood. As soon as I saw the picture, I was thinking, "How did he get beetle wood in that size?" I've thought about making some picture frames with weathered wood (intentionally leave some 1x4's out for a couple of winters), then route a rabbet in the back to hold the glass, so that none of the 'fresh' wood shows from the front.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing this bench come together...if it is the design I remember, I definitely want to see the finished product (not to mention, Art Deco is one of my favorite designs, and I love the way you have applied it in your garage).

Keep up the good work.

 

[tinbender 66]

OK, I didn't understand much of what you said, But I'm sure in the end it will be worthy of living in the Craftsman Garage. I kinda like the way those legs look with the gray areas. Don't mind me, I'm only a metal-basher.

BTW, I pick up my metal Craftsman tool chest tomorrow. Oh boy!!

 

[smschriefer]

Red Leader, you are correct that you were trying to remove too much material at one time. You needed to make multiple passes to have been successful. Personally, I use the table saw for grooves like that and if possible with a stacked dado blade set to the desired dimensions. If no dado blade, I will use the router, but only after I have made a relief cut at the table saw and I still sneak up on the final depth. When using your router, always make multiple passes to final depth to prevent overloading your router's motor and/or burning the wood. Unless it is a shallow round over. The greatest thing is we learn from our mistakes. Trust me, I snapped the shaft on one of my first routers.

You post reminds me of something I am purchasing this evening that would have been handy for you and is not currently in your arsenal of arn. Pulling a page from your book, I will show you later. Muahaha!

 

[smschriefer]

One more thing. I don't know why nobody uses social groups on the Garage Journal, but they are used frequently on the HAMB, which is a sister site. Anyway, I created a social group for Vintage Craftsman tools. To access it, just go to Community from the top tool bar (same row as User CP link) and you will see the group. We can make groups for locales as well. So maybe one for Denver area, Seattle area, Los Angeles, etc. Or for car types like Porsche, Chevrolet, Ford, Mopar and so forth. Hope to see some groups pop up!

 

[Wingnut65]

Wow, a workbench in the making! That wood will look great.

What Steve said! Since I don't have a table saw, I improvise all my grooves with my C'man router and table. Since it is low hp, I need to go with multiple shallow cuts that Steve described. A sharp bit helps as well.

Only if you had a table saw with dado blade...

 

[GirlnAgarage]

Nice idea for keeping some of the weathered on those legs to mimic the beetle wood.

I'm not a woodworker but I was thinking as Steve mentioned to go with the table saw to get your grooves in the legs. At least to remove the majority of the material removed. Trial and error with the router - now you know

Nice guitar!

 

[Shalikp]

Looking forward to the next update Red Leader.

 

[Bob Heine]

...I was definitely burning wood and it was very unsuccessful. I got through 1 with some smoke, and then it choked on the second one.

Plumes of smoke rose from the router. Not only that, but the fence on my table saw shifted on the second leg

I don't know exactly what went wrong. It might have been that the bit was dull. I switched to a duplicate bit (non carbide tipped) and the same thing happened. Maybe trying to take off too much material? Maybe my feed rate? Nothing was working....

Red Leader,

I'm not even an amateur woodworker. My primary skill is making smoke with tools. I use my blades and bits until they are so dull they no longer cut, they just burn through the material. My discovery of carbide cutting tools has postponed the burning process by orders of magnitude. I still burn through a lot of stuff but it's due more to my abuse than the cutter's dullness (apparently table saws are not meant to cut circles).

The non-carbide 1/2-inch bit in your router is easily dulled and heating it up just makes the dulling process quicker. There is probably a fair amount of fine abrasive dust embedded in that old wood that makes it even worse.

On occasion I have set up my router correctly. At least I think it was. The router actually pulled the wood and I was guiding more than pushing. Like you I use and make a lot of scrap wood on my projects.

 

[Red Leader]

Aahh!!! You guys are so smart!

Yes, I totally see where I could have gone with the table saw! Too bad it didn't even cross my mind

I'll have to check to see if I have a dado. I gave away a Delta one to the gentleman that helped rucker my Craftsman grinder, primarily because it came in the original box that was getting nothing but trashed in my garage as I moved things around. However, I might have one in a big box of circular/table saw blades that came with my first arn purchase.

For now, the stringer method of attachment will work okay. One of the reasons that things weren't working out may have been because many of the legs weren't totally straight. This was probably going to wreak havoc on either a router or a table saw dado.

I appreciate everybody's thoughts, seriously. If there is one area of woodworking that I am a lot weaker in, it is routing. Throughout this garage build, I've never been an expert at anything. But it is all very enjoyable and I'm always learning a lot. I am hoping that the learning never ends. Just that its not always painful

I might get the chance to get out there today and put the cabinets together - actually, I'll make a deal with you all....if I don't get the cabinets together, I'll have another 'alternate' update that is equal in goodness, but of course, it will have to wait until I see if I get the cabinets done today.

Stay tuned!

-Dave

 

[Red Leader]

You post reminds me of something I am purchasing this evening that would have been handy for you and is not currently in your arsenal of arn. Pulling a page from your book, I will show you later. Muahaha!

You are awful. Just like me

 

[Red Leader]

Red Leader,

I'm not even an amateur woodworker. My primary skill is making smoke with tools. I use my blades and bits until they are so dull they no longer cut, they just burn through the material. My discovery of carbide cutting tools has postponed the burning process by orders of magnitude. I still burn through a lot of stuff but it's due more to my abuse than the cutter's dullness (apparently table saws are not meant to cut circles).

The non-carbide 1/2-inch bit in your router is easily dulled and heating it up just makes the dulling process quicker. There is probably a fair amount of fine abrasive dust embedded in that old wood that makes it even worse.

On occasion I have set up my router correctly. At least I think it was. The router actually pulled the wood and I was guiding more than pushing. Like you I use and make a lot of scrap wood on my projects.

Thanks Bob, I bet it had something to do with it. Both 1/2" bits I used were non-carbide. The wood was dirty and warped. Basically the worst situation possible haha. I'm sure I was doing something wrong, but I will really enjoy bumping up to some carbide bit tools. I can see them making a huge difference since on the round type bits, the cutting edge on the carbide tool would be the only surface contact, whereas on the non-carbide bit, the entire round surface makes contact with the wood, which I'm sure heats it up much, much faster.

 

[Red Leader]

One more thing. I don't know why nobody uses social groups on the Garage Journal, but they are used frequently on the HAMB, which is a sister site. Anyway, I created a social group for Vintage Craftsman tools. To access it, just go to Community from the top tool bar (same row as User CP link) and you will see the group. We can make groups for locales as well. So maybe one for Denver area, Seattle area, Los Angeles, etc. Or for car types like Porsche, Chevrolet, Ford, Mopar and so forth. Hope to see some groups pop up!

Hmmm...I'll have to check this out! Thanks for the heads up!

 

[fergus]

Andy,

I do indeed

Here is my setup:

2008 SG Standard LH w/ 57 classics
Marshall Valvestate 100 half stack

I've always loved SGs, and it is one of my inspirations for finishing the garage and the woodshop - to build custom guitars. I've always wished that Gibson would have made a neck through SG - so instead of waiting for something that will never happen, I'll just do it myself

Nice SG man! I once played with a guy who had a '61 (i think...or maybe '62) SG that was all original. That thing had such sweet tone...the sound broke up kind of early on it started to distort a little...in a good way...just a real nice instrument.

I was a bass player and sold my rig about 10 years ago...Fender American Jazz Standard...Eden 400W amp...still rue the day.

 

[Red Leader]

BTW, I pick up my metal Craftsman tool chest tomorrow. Oh boy!!

Sweet!!! Show us pictures when you get it!!!

 

[slickgt1]

Red, you don't need a dado blade if you don't have it. Use a regular blade, make your passes, then shift your fence over 1/4" inch, make your passes again. The material left over in the groove will break out easily with a flat screw driver.

Of if you want to be very clean and meticulous, use the table saw as above, then pass it through the router. It will take out the remaining material no problem.

I bet you are a bit sore and deaf after that one leg. I can't believe your router survived even one pass.

Oh and don't worry, I've been there.

 

[Red Leader]

Update -

Haven't gotten to the bench cabinets yet, but I got the lathe up and running! Bad news is I discovered a crack that I hadn't noticed before, which is dumb because as soon as I saw it I looked back through pictures when I first saw the lathe and the crack is plainly obvious:

By daveamy at 2011-10-24

You can see the crack in the top of the green circular casting where a bolt goes through to hold on the pulley axle.

The lathe rattles a ton in the drivetrain (and I know why - bad fitting btw lower pulley and motor spindle), but it powered up and didn't catch on fire! I believe the important parts all spin true.

Also, I got a good head start on putting the Atlas cabinet saw back together. More to come later!

 

[smschriefer]

Sorry to hear about the crack. I guess you need to find someone to weld it back together.

What I got is a Craftsman 103.22350 circa 1950. See, I told you it was something you could have used.

I paid a king's ransom of $30. I know, I know. I could have gotten it for less. The thing I didn't show is the motor. It is a monster! An old Kelvinator 1/2hp that is the size of a basketball.

 

[Firefyter-Emt]

Dave, that should weld up just fine. You just need to get it off and over to somebody that can weld up cast iron for you.

Update -

Haven't gotten to the bench cabinets yet, but I got the lathe up and running! Bad news is I discovered a crack that I hadn't noticed before, which is dumb because as soon as I saw it I looked back through pictures when I first saw the lathe and the crack is plainly obvious:

By daveamy at 2011-10-24

You can see the crack in the top of the green circular casting where a bolt goes through to hold on the pulley axle.

The lathe rattles a ton in the drivetrain (and I know why - bad fitting btw lower pulley and motor spindle), but it powered up and didn't catch on fire! I believe the important parts all spin true.

Also, I got a good head start on putting the Atlas cabinet saw back together. More to come later!

 

[Red Leader]

Nice SG man! I once played with a guy who had a '61 (i think...or maybe '62) SG that was all original. That thing had such sweet tone...the sound broke up kind of early on it started to distort a little...in a good way...just a real nice instrument.

I was a bass player and sold my rig about 10 years ago...Fender American Jazz Standard...Eden 400W amp...still rue the day.

Cool story! I've always been an SG guy. Have played and tried other guitars, but nothing does it for me like an SG.

 

[Red Leader]

Dave, that should weld up just fine. You just need to get it off and over to somebody that can weld up cast iron for you.

Yep, from what I hear welding/brazing cast iron is a rare art. Will for sure need to find someone, and probably someone else with a lathe because that bottom pulley rattles around...maybe get some bronze bushings made for it.

 

[Red Leader]

Sorry to hear about the crack. I guess you need to find someone to weld it back together.

What I got is a Craftsman 103.22350 circa 1950. See, I told you it was something you could have used.

I paid a king's ransom of $30. I know, I know. I could have gotten it for less. The thing I didn't show is the motor. It is a monster! An old Kelvinator 1/2hp that is the size of a basketball.

Gosh, beautiful machine. One of my quest items is to find one of those on the original stand with the belt guards. The are pretty uncommon as is around these parts (just the sander), and I'd imagine finding a complete unit plus stand and guard is like finding a needle in a haystack. But the search is the fun part

 

[Red Leader]

Update Time!!!

This update is for everyone that misses actual work being done

Technically this update was supposed to come on Wednesday, not Thursday 'morning', but that's how long it took. I'm pretty tired, so I'll skip most of the dialog and let the pictures do the talking.

wood

cut wood

measuring jig

jig in action

1st leg done

a set done

getting sides on

coming together

coming together

doing the front

one done

two done

whoohoo okay going to bed now

 

[itsmee]

I was told a trick to welding cast iron by an old tradesman.
Heat the part till it's red hot with an acetylene torch and weld with whatever you have.....arc or mig.
I tried it on some Volvo truck drums I was given to make a pot belly heater and the welds are still holding firm.

 

[Wingnut65]

I can smell the sawdust from here. Lookin' good, Dave. I'm interested in seeing what you have in mind for the bottom shelf...

Nice to hear you are also making progress on the lathe and Atlas. For that crack, I was going to suggest a little caulk, but I remembered that was the construction side of me thinking. Good for drywall and wood, but not good for power tools.

 

[Red Leader]

I can smell the sawdust from here. Lookin' good, Dave. I'm interested in seeing what you have in mind for the bottom shelf...

Nice to hear you are also making progress on the lathe and Atlas. For that crack, I was going to suggest a little caulk, but I remembered that was the construction side of me thinking. Good for drywall and wood, but not good for power tools.

Thanks Jeff, it was primarily your encouragement that motivated me to blast through the basic structure and get it done. To be honest, I'm surprised all the cutting I did didn't wake up the wife/son at 10:30pm!

I know they don't look like much right now, but I'm thinking that prep will be the key - sanding, filling, sanding again, etc. I needed to get the foundation done, then I will go from there.

I'm still on the fence regarding the use of either bondo or caulk for filling in the cabinets. Once it dries, caulk is impossible to work with but if applied right, might be much better than the bondo. I used bondo for the cabinets and while it worked, the surrounding wood was much softer than it, so when sanding it didn't quite blend as well as it could have.

Maybe I'll try using caulk starting in the back as a practice run.

There is not much holding me back from sandwiching the top. My dilemma is that I only have 3 long clamps. If it was just glue, I'd want probably two more...but I'm thinking I may be able to get around that by using finish nails to nail everything together - the clamps would just be extra insurance while everything is drying. The nails will hold the alignment, so the clamps wouldn't have to pull double duty.

Anybody sandwich a tabletop together? Ideas are appreciated.

 

[Red Leader]

I was told a trick to welding cast iron by an old tradesman.
Heat the part till it's red hot with an acetylene torch and weld with whatever you have.....arc or mig.
I tried it on some Volvo truck drums I was given to make a pot belly heater and the welds are still holding firm.

I've heard a couple things myself - putting an angle or 'V' notch in the crack, cleaning it super well, heating it up, then sticking it in either sand or some other specific substrate to facilitate a slow cool down.

All of which I have no way of doing myself

 

[tinbender 66]

Anybody sandwich a tabletop together? Ideas are appreciated.

The guy I stole the fence board idea from (gearbanger) had a rolling bench with a sandwich top (2x4's though). He drilled holes and tied them together with all thread, washers and nuts. Looked pretty cool.

Here it is:


http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107742&highlight=gearbanger&page=6

 

[tinbender 66]

I had a cast iron bracket from an old GMC pickup welded by an old timer across the street from where I worked at the time. He preheated it, stick welded it with special rod, then let it cool at room temperature for several hours. Worked good.

 

[Red Leader]

Okay...

Contest Time!!!

In the spirit of Christmas, the 1950's Craftsman Garage is giving away a table saw/jointer combo unit! I picked this little guy up because I just couldn't resist, but you've all seen my garage. Way too many tools!!!!! (well, almost).

Anyway, I know someone else would get a lot more use out of this tool than I would, so it is free to whomever would like to participate and win the contest! All you have to do is tell me what you would use it for and why it should be yours. You can visit the 'official' contest at this link:

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129584

I will clean the saw up, replace any worn belts, completely redo the electrical, completely clean all flat cast iron surfaces (saw and jointer tables and fences), put a carbide-tipped blade on it and have it looking **** 'n spam and ready to rock.

I'm located in Denver, but don't sweat the location piece. We'll find a way to get it to you. I have connections...

Thanks all for your contributions to this thread! I have gained much from GJ...time to give back

By the way, I forgot to mention...

We have a winner!!!

The table saw and jointer combo will be headed to Steven Biars!!!

For any of you that are interested in hearing Steven's story, please visit it here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129584&highlight=combo

I will take things apart and recondition, but will leave the original paint intact. I will make sure it is functioning and then we'll find a way to get it to Ohio

 

[gts340]

Red Leader, I didn't even read the rest of Steven's thread. Hands down the "winner"! I applaud Steven for having the ambition even more than the ability to do what he is doing.

 

[onething]

By the way, I forgot to mention...

We have a winner!!!

Well, of course you do. Was there ever anyother choice?

 

[Red Leader]

A little progress...

Underside of Atlas cabinet saw. I think the paint turned out real well

Step by step...

As you can see, this is a table-mounted-internals type of saw, VS the type of cabinet saw where the trunnions hang from the cabinet. I've been having sort of a friendly debate with a gentleman in this thread about the benefits/cons of the two different styles:

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=131366

In my (sometimes wrong) opinion, I feel that when properly executed (and adjusted), table mounted trunnions can offer a more stable, more accurate saw since the parts that control the quality of cut are held to higher tolerances as they are mounted directly to the part that the wood actually passes on, leaving less room for variance and tolerance stacking. This is in comparison to a cabinet mount, where the parts that control the quality of the cut are instead attached to sheet metal and the table of the saw is attached to a different part of the sheet metal. I suppose in optimal conditions, it is a moot point since we are talking about high quality saws that can put a glass surface on wood. However, due to a large quantity of cheaper, crappy saws that have the 'under the table' trunnion mounting, a lot of folks view that school of engineering as inferior and thus, the table mounted system gets a bad rap.

What are your all's thoughts? What are your experiences? I love to hear where you all stand on this subject and why - and hope to learn more.



Oh and just a few more pictures...

Front of saw...bad picture (bad lighting)

I did the sides of the top table, but still have to do the actual top. It will get scraped, then sanded, probably working up to 600 grit or so.

Right now I'm working on reconditioning/restoring the tags/faceplates. More to come!

 

[tinbender 66]

That saw looks fantastic. I just love old tools that are all dressed up like that!! It looks like a table saw forest in your place

 

[Red Leader]

That saw looks fantastic. I just love old tools that are all dressed up like that!! It looks like a table saw forest in your place

Or rabbit farm...the just keep multiplying!!!

 

[Omphaloskeptic]

I wondered where 'wood pellets' came from, now we know it's RL's saw farm!

 

[smschriefer]

Red, regarding the debate, I'd agree with you. I read that and had followed the whole debate on OWWM regarding what makes a cabinet saw. My position is this, you will never convince someone of something once they set their mind to it. This has been proven scientifically, so don't sweat it.

The same member slammed my C'man 150 DP purchase ($75 and it is a floor model, not a bench model) saying that they could be had for $20 and were not as accurate as a new DP that could be had on Craigslist for $100. Reading his posts to you was like deja vu all over again. I knew he was wrong and I really wanted to debate him, but I ended up just leaving him be. His belief is any modern tool is vastly superior to an older tool and yes, in some cases that is true, but not in all and even when they are more accurate it has to be tempered by reality. In your case he is comparing a $3,500 saw to a used saw that is 50 years of age or greater and his is still only one or two thousandth's of an inch more accurate. So seven times the price for what, less clean up after the cut? I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, I much prefer spending the extra money on something else. Heck, my TWO saws cost me a total of $50 and he might be five thousandths of an inch more accurate and he even said a Skilsaw can get close to his cuts. So in my case, he spent 140 times more money per saw. As a hobbiest, I just can't justify throwing my money away like that, but more power to him if he wants to.

Is the fence as accurate as a new design, no. So what if I have a .001" difference in my cut vs his. I still have the cut and I still have to assemble prior to glue up just like him and we both still have to make minor corrections, since wood is not always perfect. So he spends more money to do the exact same thing and brags he has a more expensive tool than you. It kind of reminds me of another debate regarding Snap On v. the world... Don't worry, I'm not going there. Also, there are tricks to making our saws more accurate as well, and beyond the time spent - these upgrades are free, or just a few dollars. Before you get too far on the rebuild, read this guys rebuild at Lumberjocks. You will be glad you did. http://lumberjocks.com/KTMM/blog/19061

And I shall now end my rant. lol

 

[Red Leader]

Red, regarding the debate, I'd agree with you. I read that and had followed the whole debate on OWWM regarding what makes a cabinet saw. My position is this, you will never convince someone of something once they set their mind to it. This has been proven scientifically, so don't sweat it.

The same member slammed my C'man 150 DP purchase ($75 and it is a floor model, not a bench model) saying that they could be had for $20 and were not as accurate as a new DP that could be had on Craigslist for $100. Reading his posts to you was like deja vu all over again. I knew he was wrong and I really wanted to debate him, but I ended up just leaving him be. His belief is any modern tool is vastly superior to an older tool and yes, in some cases that is true, but not in all and even when they are more accurate it has to be tempered by reality. In your case he is comparing a $3,500 saw to a used saw that is 50 years of age or greater and his is still only one or two thousandth's of an inch more accurate. So seven times the price for what, less clean up after the cut? I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, I much prefer spending the extra money on something else. Heck, my TWO saws cost me a total of $50 and he might be five thousandths of an inch more accurate and he even said a Skilsaw can get close to his cuts. So in my case, he spent 140 times more money per saw. As a hobbiest, I just can't justify throwing my money away like that, but more power to him if he wants to.

Is the fence as accurate as a new design, no. So what if I have a .001" difference in my cut vs his. I still have the cut and I still have to assemble prior to glue up just like him and we both still have to make minor corrections, since wood is not always perfect. So he spends more money to do the exact same thing and brags he has a more expensive tool than you. It kind of reminds me of another debate regarding Snap On v. the world... Don't worry, I'm not going there. Also, there are tricks to making our saws more accurate as well, and beyond the time spent - these upgrades are free, or just a few dollars. Before you get too far on the rebuild, read this guys rebuild at Lumberjocks. You will be glad you did. http://lumberjocks.com/KTMM/blog/19061

And I shall now end my rant. lol

Thanks smschriefer for your thoughts. My intention in the other thread wasn't so much to disagree with him as it was to try and understand his differing opinion and why he felt so. I feel like I have a lot to learn. I know the internet can be trick to have a healthy debate without having the ability to infer a certain tone to the discussion, so I want to be careful about such things.

All that said I respect his differing thoughts. After all, this world would be a pretty boring place if we all thought the same.

I feel like I should do more research on the cabinet vs table mount thing. It fascinates me. Maybe I could run some tests, although I'm betting that even that would be inconclusive because both saws properly set up would probably give a perfect cut.

I suppose I should thank him, too. After all, guys like that leave more old tools for guys like me

 

[smschriefer]

I suppose I should thank him, too. After all, guys like that leave more old tools for guys like me

Exactly. There is no right or wrong answer, just differing opinions. I do appreciate that people prefer new over old tools as well for the same reason.

I sometimes think the reason you don't see saws like ours anymore is safety. Everything isn't enclosed in the cabinet and to be honest, no company wants to be liable for people silly enough to get near a moving belt that isn't enclosed in the tool.