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"US-made prices" for Chinese-made/Asian-made product

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kythri

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Let me preface this with saying that Sears and Craftsman are no longer a "go-to" brand for me. As I've said in other posts, now that we're dealing with imports, the purchase anything from them will be weighed against other import brands - they don't get a pass anymore due to price and COO.

Any perceived "defense" of either Sears or Craftsman in my posts aren't defending the brand or the quality or anything like that, but instead, taking issue with fallacious comments being made.

That said:

Regarding comments about the price not changing, are we really surprised? Craftsman was already a hell of a deal when it was US-made.

It seems that the shift of manufacturing was more to maintain price parity (to avoid increasing the price).

I see a lot of comments, mine included, about "US-made prices for Asian-made goods", but, really, are they "US-made prices" compared to anything else, or are they only "US-made prices" when they were made in the US?

Here's today's challenge:

Find and post US-made alternatives to the following tools for the same or very similar price (within a reasonable amount - say 10%-20% cost difference).

Any combination of sets to match the Craftsman offering is acceptable (say a 13pc SAE and 13pc metric set to match the 26pc Craftsman set).

Features such as "Quick Release" are not needed to be duplicated - If we consider the RP ratchet to be the Sears/Craftsman "basic" ratchet, a comparable "basic" ratchet from another manufacturer would count. Features need count - if we're using the 84T Craftsman ratchet, you need something with a similar tooth count. You can't put up a 60-tooth ratchet against the 84T

Coupon codes are a gray area, but if you can meet/beat the deal, go ahead and post.

(My hypothesis is that it's going to be tough to come close to stuff here, save for maybe the higher-end ratchets.)

Begin:

$179.98 (regular price) / $161.98 (on sale today)
26 piece Craftsman Full-Polish combo wrench set (the former US-made Craftsman Professional)
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00934951000P?prdNo=4

$22.99 (regular price) / $20.69 (on sale today)
Craftsman 1/2 in. Drive Quick Release Teardrop Ratchet
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00944809000P?prdNo=2

$39.99 (regular price) / $35.99 (on sale today)
Craftsman 1/2 in. Thin Profile Ratchet
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00944996000P?prdNo=13

$79.99 (regular price) / $71.99 (on sale today)
Craftsman Premium Grade 1/2 in. Drive Ratchet
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00925482000P?prdNo=5

$15.99 (regular price) / $14.39 (on sale today)
Craftsman 3/8 in. Drive Quick Release Teardrop Ratchet
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00944811000P?prdNo=6

$32.99 (regular price) / $26.69 (on sale today)
Craftsman 3/8 in. Drive Thin Profile Ratchet
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00944995000P?prdNo=23

$59.99 (regular price) / $53.99 (on sale today)
Craftsman Premium Grade 3/8 in. Drive Ratchet
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00902548000P?prdNo=3&blockNo=3&blockType=G3

$64.99 (regular price) / $58.49 (on sale today)
Craftsman Professional 11 pc. Standard Full Polish 12 pt. Stubby Combination Wrench Set (yes, the wrenches that started the other thread)
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00944138000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1

$64.99 (regular price) / $58.49 (on sale today)
Craftsman Professional 11 pc. Metric Full Polish 12 pt. Stubby Combination Wrench Set
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00944139000P?mv=rr

$99.99 (regular price) / $89.99 (on sale today)
Craftsman Professional 20 pc. Standard and Metric Full Polish Stubby 12 pt. Combination Wrench Set
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00934956000P?mv=rr

That should provide a suitable starting point.
 
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pipsters

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Compare what you can get at Northern Tool or Harbor Freight. Similar stuff for way less.
 
OP
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kythri

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pipsters said:
Compare what you can get at Northern Tool or Harbor Freight. Similar stuff for way less.
Click to expand...

That's not the point here. I definitely agree, one can find imports for cheaper than Craftsman imports.

I'm challenging the claim that Sears is charging "US-made prices" for their imports.

The only reason that those were "US-made prices" was because that's what Sears was charging. Now that they're not made in the US anymore, I don't believe there's much, if anything, from a competitor that's made in the US at the same price point.
 
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fivespdcat

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There aren't any mid level US brands to compare to anymore. When there was, craftsman was comparable or sometimes a premium. Now since pretty much all US tools are considered premium, we can only compare craftsman to import prices.
 
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pipsters

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Yes I agree, Sears was a good value for US made tools. I think the point is what they were charging for US made, they are now charging for import.
 
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trboxman

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The obvious question though, is why not raise the prices to keep up with the cost of mfg? Every other US mfger has to do that if they want to keep production here. Instead they've kept the price the same but offshored the mfg, that puts them at a pricing disadvantage compared to other offshore mfgs. I suspect that you'll see Sears lower their prices while at the same time their offshore competitors with raise prices to parity.
 
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kythri

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pipsters said:
Yes I agree, Sears was a good value for US made tools. I think the point is what they were charging for US made, they are now charging for import.
Click to expand...

I understand that. That's what I'm going after - people are saying "I refuse to pay US prices for imports!"

I'm saying that those aren't US prices anymore, and, to an extent, never really were - they were Sears/Craftsman prices.

As I said, I'm not advocating people buying Sears/Craftsman stuff at that price or any price, I'm simply asking them to find anything that's a comparable price AND is US-made.

If the Sears/Craftsman price is a premium for import, well, it's a premium for their unbeatable warranty, their selection, availability and convenience/access that you don't get from Northern Tool or HF (yet). I think this is part of what Sears is hinging their bets on.

Regardless, the challenge still stands. If someone can meet/beat, then we all win, right?
 
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kythri

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trboxman said:
The obvious question though, is why not raise the prices to keep up with the cost of mfg? Every other US mfger has to do that if they want to keep production here. Instead they've kept the price the same but offshored the mfg, that puts them at a pricing disadvantage compared to other offshore mfgs. I suspect that you'll see Sears lower their prices while at the same time their offshore competitors with raise prices to parity.
Click to expand...

There's really no win here for Sears.

If they raise their prices, they lose customers who buy solely on price. If they offshore, they lose customers who want US goods.

If they keep their price the same, but are able to offer product that is comparable (and that's really the debate going on here in multiple threads), they still have the following going for them:

Brand name - Still a popular brand name.

Warranty - one of the best, if not the best, in the industry.

Availability - if Sears doesn't have the tool you need, chances are nobody else local will either.

Product selection/depth of selection - Sears is one of the few places that have a full range of open stock tools out there. Most big boxes just sell sets, and the few other places that DO carry open stock don't have:

Convenience/access to stores - Even with the closures anounced, they've still got 2000+ stores. Further, Ace Hardware and other licensed retailers are expanding their selections significantly. I can't think of another retailer that has the selection that Sears has, the warranty Sears has, and the distribution that Sears has.

Offhand, if you were to take Sears (and other Craftsman retailers) off the map, and expect to find any selection of open-stock tools in a 30-50 mile radius that might be open on a Saturday or Sunday, your only real options are going to be auto parts stores, and their selection is dwarfed by Sears (and, pricing is horrendous).
 
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byoungblood

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Just look at Craftsman's own catalog. They're charging the same price for the full polish wrench sets as they were for USA made Professional wrenches. Apart from polished chrome and their length, there's not much to distinguish them from the RP wrenches. So there's no way in hell I'd pay $100 for a set of their full polish wrenches now that they've cheaped out and gone to China with them.

Wright and S-K are not that much more than the full polish/C-Man pro (on most things, some other items will make your heart skip a beat), but it is all still USA made.
 
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Stephenw

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Sears didn't significantly raise their prices on USA made tools. They sure didn't drop prices when switching the tools to imports either.

They could have had an ad campaign promoting the higher quality and long term value of the USA tools versus the imports.
 
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kythri

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byoungblood said:
Just look at Craftsman's own catalog. They're charging the same price for the full polish wrench sets as they were for USA made Professional wrenches.
Click to expand...

Yes. We've all agreed upon that.

byoungblood said:
Apart from polished chrome and their length, there's not much to distinguish them from the RP wrenches. So there's no way in hell I'd pay $100 for a set of their full polish wrenches now that they've cheaped out and gone to China with them.
Click to expand...

That remains to be determined, since nobody here has stepped up and provided a positive review, or even a negative review based on actual ownership/experience.

byoungblood said:
Wright and S-K are not that much more than the full polish/C-Man pro (on most things, some other items will make your heart skip a beat), but it is all still USA made.
Click to expand...

And that just plain inaccurate, other than the USA origin.

Their prices ARE pretty significantly higher, unless you know of a source that I don't.
 
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redstripe89

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Haven't priced anything specific but Craftsman Professional (USA made) at full price seems inline with Williams/SK/Wright etc.. However, I don't think anything will touch the USA made RP wrenches or ratchets.
 
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oldtools

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Sears is probably making very little (or none) profit from US made tools. They offshore it to make profit. If they lower the price, they make very little profit again which defeat the whole purpose. Why offshore if you make the same profit. The whole purpose of a company is to make profit/money (not provide job, not provide health care, and not make everybody happy). If company don't make profit, they will perish.
 
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kythri

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Honda guy said:
Whew!! Finally, someone that gets the premise of the OP's challenge.
Click to expand...

Bingo.

So, 10 piece wrench set for $101.56, US-made.

Average of $10.16/wrench

Comparable product from Sears:

$99.99 (regular price) / $89.99 (on sale now)
Craftsman Professional 13 pc. Metric 12 pt. Full Polish Combination Wrench Set
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00945964000P?prdNo=16&blockNo=16&blockType=G16

The Sears set is imported, but will get you 3 additional wrenches (7, 8 and 9).

$7.69/wrench at regular price
$6.92/wrench at sale price

Craftsman set is 24% cheaper at regular price, 32% cheaper at sale price.

The Williams set seems like a pretty decent deal, but, as I expected, there's a significant price difference when you crunch the numbers.
 
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kythri

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redstripe89 said:
Haven't priced anything specific but Craftsman Professional (USA made) at full price seems inline with Williams/SK/Wright etc.. However, I don't think anything will touch the USA made RP wrenches or ratchets.
Click to expand...

That's why I'm not including RP wrenches here (but I am including RP ratchets).

At the wrench level, there doesn't appear to be anyone making wrenches in the USA that are comparable (size/etc.)

It's easier to compare the full-polished chrome stuffs.

I did a bit of checking at the regularly-recommended online stores before posting, and I'm not seeing SK as being comparable in price, nor do I really see Wright or Williams there.

I'm not saying that the prices are bad, and now that the Craftsman stuff is imported, the prices are pretty good in comparison, but that just goes to show you what a phenomenal deal Craftsman was when it was all US-made.
 
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chris142

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I sell automotive cooling products. The way I see it the average consumer does not care where the product was made. Only that it fixes the problem.

I can offer a Chinese made Radiator for $165 and an American made one for $180 and 90% of the time the customer chooses the Chinese one to save $15.

Very few shop by quality. Same with tools. The average consumer just wants a tool to finish a job. COO does not matter as long as the tool works.

Look at the garbage for sale @ the Dollar stores. Somebody is buying it.

Sears went to China to save money. So if going to China saved them $.10 a tool thats a large profit increase when you consider how many tools they sell a day.

The consumers that buy for quality are rare. The ones that buy American to help support an American in another state and that they will never meet are even rarer.

We are a rare bunch on this forum. We know that quality costs and most of us are willing to pay a premium for a better quality tool.:thumbup:
 
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Honda guy

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Judging by the responses, I'm guessing most people didn't bother to read/comprehend the original post. Looks like they just read the title and posted away.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Sanp-on GOOD:):)
Harbor Freight BAD:mad::mad:

lol:)
 
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trboxman

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MD11

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Don't be scared, but I completely agree with you. Sears US prices were WAY low compared to Snapon, Mac/Matco, Armstrong et al... I honestly never thought of Sears quality as on par with the "Truck Brands" however so it made sense that it was cheaper to begin with.
 
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MD11

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Something lost on a lot of people with these COO / price debates is that in a free market (which we more or less operate in), the market will set the price in the end.

It might make some feel better about their lack of financial ability to buy the best and most expensive brands (read Snap On), by simply dismissing their quality and saying that people are "paying for the name"... but a firm can only get away with that tactic so long before the free market figures out that their stuff isn't worth the money and they eventually go out of business.

Then there is also this false idea that somehow when a company charges a lot for something, they are somehow making more money as a result. This totally discounts the cost of making said item. So in their minds, SnapOn is charging $150 for the SAME wrench that XYZ Brand is charing $20 for, therefore Snapon MUST be making $130 more profit on that wrench.

This is actually contrary to how the real world works.. Most luxury brands are lower profit business with higher overhead and fixed costs, compared to higher volume or discount inexpensive brands. This is where the famous saying "Sell to the masses, live with the classes --- sell to the classes, live with the masses" came from..

It's much easier to turn a profit making a few bucks on something that only costs you a few bucks.... than making $50 on something that cost you $100...

If anyone seriously thinks a firm like Snapon, Sears or (pick any old tool maker) can continue to remain in business selling something of little value, then you don't understand the free market. No matter what the market segment is, the company servicing that segment will not remain in business if it doesn't deliver value on the dollar.
 
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vssjim

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kythri said:
In Snap-on's defense, that IS a bit more than a standard cheap-*** C-clamp, and it's a large one at that.

Here's a Proto 12" welding C-clamp for $111 at Amazon, that puts the Snap-on in a bit more perspective:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001HWE4OI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Odds are, it's made in China, too.
Click to expand...

actually I have never bought a Proto C clamp that was not made in USA and I bought some about a year ago. I was happy to find out Stanley had not outsourced those but as of not long ago still US made.
 
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MattT

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kythri said:
If they raise their prices, they lose customers who buy solely on price. If they offshore, they lose customers who want US goods.Warranty - one of the best, if not the best, in the industry.
Click to expand...

They probably figure the majority of their customers care more about price than COO and I reckon they're right. Of the minority who were buying Craftsman "because of COO" I doubt many of them care enough about it to step up to a higher quality US brand.

kythri said:
Availability - if Sears doesn't have the tool you need, chances are nobody else local will either.
Click to expand...

Sears is a joke around here. I'd have to drive an hour and a half to get to one with a decent tool selection.

Hiball said:
I believe those are imports..
Click to expand...

Yeah they're import. You gotta watch Williams because they're a mix of US and import now. To be fair though they are charging asian prices for their asian tools.

http://www.toolsdelivered.com/Williams-11032-Hand-Tools-Wrenches-Combination-Metric-Sets

you ain't see nothing till the Snap On stuff.

$157 for a single Chinese made C-clamp, but, it's Snap On, right?
Click to expand...

Not sure what's going on with the price of that clamp:headscrat I guess they might be building in a lot to cover warranty.

Anyways Snap on are up and down on asian pricing. Some of their Blue Point stuff is cheaper than Lowes charges for Kobalt.
 
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byoungblood

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kythri said:
Their prices ARE pretty significantly higher, unless you know of a source that I don't.
Click to expand...

My 11pc Wright metric full polish combination wrenches sells for $85-100 on Amazon, and for ~$110 at Epstein's. Yes, it has 2 fewer wrenches than the C-Man full polish set, but it is the 16 and 18mm sizes, which are not commonly used.

So, if you compare the best price per wrench to that of the Chinese Craftsman 13 piece set, the Wright set is actually CHEAPER per wrench than the chicom junk. Through other channels they are still only roughly $10 per wrench, and I'm more than willing to pay an extra $2.50 to buy a US made tool.
 
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Monte

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trboxman said:
Enough that some companies are bringing manufacturing back to the US. Not enough of them but it's better than nothing.
Click to expand...

That´s right, in the future the costs in China will be rising even more since they have to face the problem with health care + retirement one day...

gtlaw said:
I must not be qualified, because my pay just went down with a rise in health care benefits BTW if your interested its $205 bi-monthly
Click to expand...

i meant in China....

102.50 a month ? Sounds good ! :thumbup:
In germany it´s 16.4% of your income per month plus your employer has to pay additional 15.5% each month for your health care. If you want to visit the doctor its 10€ per quarter extra...
 
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MattT

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gtlaw said:
I must not be qualified, because my pay just went down with a rise in health care benefits BTW if your interested its $205 bi-monthly
Click to expand...

That may or may not be a pay cut. If your employer had their rates jacked $100 a month and passed on $50 a month to you then you just got a raise. It just don't feel like one:lol_hitti
 
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cotjocky

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MD11 said:
Don't be scared, but I completely agree with you. Sears US prices were WAY low compared to Snapon, Mac/Matco, Armstrong et al... I honestly never thought of Sears quality as on par with the "Truck Brands" however so it made sense that it was cheaper to begin with.
Click to expand...

My thoughts as well. Craftsman is a good tool for a DIY and I won't say that there aren't some people who use some Craftsman stuff on a regular basis as a day to day tech, but Craftsman has never been the quality of tool of the "truck brands". You have **** tools that people buy to do 1 job. If it gets lost or broken, they don't care as long as they get that 1 job done. You have people who do occasional work and know they will need the tool later on down the road. A large percentage of those people buy Craftsman. People that do repairs day in, day out, year after year normally prefer one or more "truck brands" and enjoy the convenience that comes along with that line of tools.
 
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MD11

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t100 said:
how about a Chinese bench vise for $547+tax. thou it's branded as "Blue Point", but the price tag doesn't like one.
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?store=snapon-store&item_ID=14353&group_ID=1867

$45 for a single piece of Chinese socket, this is Snap On, not Blue Point:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?store=snapon-store&item_ID=15007&group_ID=13798
Click to expand...

It's ridiculous that SO makes SO branded stuff IN China, charges US prices for it and people are probably actually buying it.

I don't know who's the bigger jerk them, or the guys buying it.
 
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dieselmike

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kythri said:
that just goes to show you what a phenomenal deal Craftsman was when it was all US-made.
Click to expand...

agreed, i am still building my craftsman USA tool collection, and will continue to do so as long as domestically made product exist at sears
 
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