Copper or Black Pipe for Air Lines

[Hades12]

I have a rented garage I am going to be using for Dirty work and Painting and need to run lines.

I dislike black pipe as it is hard for me to run, copper would be much easier and easier to take out but copper will cost more.

Would it be better to use copper?

 

[MXtras]

Copper is prefered I think except for initial cost.

Both work well but as you know, copper sheds heat better than black iron pipe and removing heat helps drop out moisture from the air stream.

Scott

 

[PAToyota]

You pretty much summed it up - copper costs more but is (IMHO) easier to work with than black pipe.

If you are renting, I'm assuming you will be removing either one before leaving. Black pipe may be easier to do although you could quickly cut the copper at any fittings, recycle the fittings, and buy new fittings for your next place - I've had too many issues with air leaks when trying to reuse fittings (other than valves) and will just buy new one.

 

[boiler7904]

For a rented garage, I'd be looking at SharkBite fittings and copper pipe or one of the modular aluminum pipe based air piping systems like Garage Pak.

While more expensive up front, you would be able to move either system in its entirety to a new garage in the future at virtually no expense.

 

[Greg9504]

If you go copper you should use the proper solder. 95/5 Tin/Antimony or a proprietary blend recommended for the application (such as Harris Bridgit ). The copper hand book has more information on copper and solder type and working pressures.

I just finished putting together a small amount of black pipe (1/2" and 3/4"), from compressor to prefilter/filter/dryer/filter/regulator. Only to find about half my fittings leaking. I used Permetex Thread Sealant. On the joints that curead for a few days, no problems. On those that I assembled within 0-24 hours of test is where I had the failures. I went out and purchased some "Master Pro-Dope" from a local plumbing wholesaler and am going to try it out tonight. According to the manufacturer it does not require a cure time. I also had one completely **** union fitting that the Chinese forgot to put the race in. By the end of assembling this I wish I had gone copper...

 

[Hades12]

Just did some pricing at lowes.

10' of M 1/2 copper was $10
10' of L 1/2 copper was $14

10' 1/2 Black pipe $10

Looks like the copper will be less expensive as the T,L and copplers are much less then the same in the Black pipe.

One question though, what is the difference in the L and M in the copper?

 

[PAToyota]

One question though, what is the difference in the L and M in the copper?

K is the thickest wall, followed by L, and M is the thinnest.

 

[1320stang]

I just saw those Shark Bite fittings at Ace Hardware the other day, but didn't pay much attention to them, have to make a trip tonight.....

 

[64merc]

I just saw those Shark Bite fittings at Ace Hardware the other day, but didn't pay much attention to them, have to make a trip tonight.....

Can anyone that has used these confirm whether or not these work well? Long-term?

I've heard mixed reviews from different people I've asked. Looking back, I have seen a couple of good opportunities to use these, like places where a torch may be a bit hazardous.

 

[Hades12]

K is the thickest wall, followed by L, and M is the thinnest.

Any reason to use the L, Total cost would be about $40 extra.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The Copper tube handbook, referenced above (and I have mentioned it many times in the past) will give you all the specs on copper tube of all kinds. M will work just fine at a 100 psi.

Charles

http://www.copper.org/resources/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf

 

[Hades12]

The Copper tube handbook, referenced above (and I have mentioned it many times in the past) will give you all the specs on copper tube of all kinds. M will work just fine at a 100 psi.

Charles

http://www.copper.org/resources/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf

Thanks.

I avoid PDF's when I am on the dial up.Will check it out once I am on highspeed.

 

[chevytruck]

I know Black pipe if left for a long time can start rusting inside and can be tough on tools

 

[Ezzie]

Why couldn't a person use PEX tubing for an air distribution system? Handles water pressures in the same ranges, brass fittings and adapters are readily available at places like Home Depot & Lowes. It is a thermoplastic so it won't rust, build up scale or corrosion.

??

 

[Hades12]

Why couldn't a person use PEX tubing for an air distribution system? Handles water pressures in the same ranges, brass fittings and adapters are readily available at places like Home Depot & Lowes. It is a thermoplastic so it won't rust, build up scale or corrosion.

??

I would assume it would not have the same cooling effect as the copper.

 

[Mr. Welsh]

I helped my dad install a copper system in his barn. I would do it again.

I don't think he lets it run up to 175psi with the compressor, though. Operating pressure is set with a regulator to around 125psi I think.

 

[Farmallgray]

Why couldn't a person use PEX tubing for an air distribution system? Handles water pressures in the same ranges, brass fittings and adapters are readily available at places like Home Depot & Lowes. It is a thermoplastic so it won't rust, build up scale or corrosion.

??

Regular Pex is not UV resistant, so that could be a problem where its exposed to light. I have been told that AL Pex can be used, but I would like to do more research on it before I plumb my shop. Maybe someone else can chime in here with more info on using Pex.

 

[Defender Chassis]

Just did some pricing at lowes.

10' of M 1/2 copper was $10
10' of L 1/2 copper was $14

10' 1/2 Black pipe $10

Looks like the copper will be less expensive as the T,L and copplers are much less then the same in the Black pipe.

One question though, what is the difference in the L and M in the copper?

This is consistent with what I have found in my area also but when you make the jump to 3/4" the price difference is larger. My plan in my shop is to run a 3/4" black iron header ring around the peremiter and then use 1/2" copper for the drops.

 

[Hades12]

Here is the place I am doing

The Left bay

The right bay

the right will be for paint and the left for engines and the like.

 

[revlover]

For a rented garage, I'd be looking at SharkBite fittings and copper pipe or one of the modular aluminum pipe based air piping systems like Garage Pak.

While more expensive up front, you would be able to move either system in its entirety to a new garage in the future at virtually no expense.

I say that GaragePak in action on a small show called TruckU on the SPEED network... it's pretty damn simple to install... don't know what the costs are though.

 

[1320stang]

GaragePak is expensive.

I went by my local Ace Hardware last night, they have most of all the fittings. I think the 3/4"x3/4"x3/4" tee was $10.99, a 3/4"x3/4" ell was $7.99 and a 3/4"x3/4"NPT (M or F) was $5.99. They had ball valves as well.

 

[RAYJAY]

I have a rented garage I am going to be using for Dirty work and Painting and need to run lines.

I dislike black pipe as it is hard for me to run, copper would be much easier and easier to take out but copper will cost more.

Would it be better to use copper?

black pipe work good and its cheap, also it will cool the air better the steel will stay cooler longer so it pull the water out , i have installed both and will never go back to copper, and make sure you pitch it back to the air compressor, did mine that way per tp's site and I never get any water at my drops,

also never put a regulator right at the compressor, you want them on the drops after the traps only

go to tp tool site they have a great pdf on how to install air piping


www.tptools.com/StaticText/airline-piping-diagram.pdf
Jeff

 

[1320stang]

Hi Larry:

Sharkbite Fittings are perfectly suitable for air service as long as the pressure does not exceed 200 psi., the temperature does not exceed 200 degrees, and the air is dry and clean (i.e. no oil).

Thanks

John Brill
OEM Sales Manager
Inside Sales Manager

Cash Acme
A Division of the Reliance Worldwide Corporation
2400 7th Ave. SW
Cullman, AL 35055

Ph: (256) 775-8179
Fax: (256) 775-8238

http://www.cashacme.com

 

[e-tek]

black pipe work good and its cheap, also it will cool the air better the steel will stay cooler longer so it pull the water out , i have installed both and will never go back to copper, and make sure you pitch it back to the air compressor, did mine that way per tp's site and I never get any water at my drops,

also never put a regulator right at the compressor, you want them on the drops after the traps only

AMazing the different ideas and opinions on everything!!
I also used black pipe and teflon tape and had NO leaks. But I was told to put a re right at compressor to regulate air pressure into the system. Some filters and traps are 150 max and my compressor runs 175 - I've had no problems. Also, I pitched my lines FROM the compressor - told water SHOULD run to traps!! Who knows, it all seems to be working fine....

 

[e-tek]

and make sure you pitch it back to the air compressor, did mine that way per tp's site and I never get any water at my drops.

ACTUALLY - I just looked at the photo from RAYAJY and my way is the right way (whew!) - you pitch the lines AWAY from the compressor so the water runs TO the traps - RAYJAY has it backwards. What's the point of traps if the water is running back to the compressor!? As well, the water (condensate) forms all along the tubing so you catch it at he end. This is also why I didn't put a dryer at the the compressor, I put it just before my lines for the blaster and paint guns.

 

[GreyOwl]

Has anyone tried or have any comments on the copper bonding paste vs. soldering for copper pipe? The package says it is rated for 500 lbs pressure. Just looking for alternates due to location.

Charles

 

[PAToyota]

Ok, just to throw another option out there...

I was out to Spring Carlisle today and saw this setup: RapidAir

First thought it was like GaragePak but saw it wasn't the aluminum tubing as I got closer. Then thought it was a PEX system, but the salesman said the tubing is nylon. Especially for the OP's situation with a rented garage I think I'd consider something like this. A 100' roll of the nylon tubing is $50 and all of the fittings are reusable - push in to lock / push release button to remove.

The nylon tubing is 1/2" diameter and they do have a larger aluminum tubing available - AirNet - for main runs or high volume airflow. It is available up to 3" in diameter...

 

[1320stang]

The SharkBite also works with Pex.

 

[PoorOwner]

and make sure you pitch it back to the air compressor, did mine that way per tp's site and I never get any water at my drops.

ACTUALLY - I just looked at the photo from RAYAJY and my way is the right way (whew!) - you pitch the lines AWAY from the compressor so the water runs TO the traps - RAYJAY has it backwards. What's the point of traps if the water is running back to the compressor!? As well, the water (condensate) forms all along the tubing so you catch it at he end. This is also why I didn't put a dryer at the the compressor, I put it just before my lines for the blaster and paint guns.

People here have done it both ways.. depends if you want to drain your compressor more or the drops more, I have sloped mine towards the drops..
the risers they do the most work separating the water because the water (mostly) cannot travel upwards.

 

[PAToyota]

Automatic drain on the compressor in my setup - so pitched back to the compressor...

 

[kvom]

I need some schooling here. Why use metal pipes vs. flexible hose from the compressor? Can I asume that the main problem with water in the air is if you want to spray paint?

 

[e-tek]

Copper is prefered I think except for initial cost.

Both work well but as you know, copper sheds heat better than black iron pipe and removing heat helps drop out moisture from the air stream.

Scott

At the risk of :
It's still unreal how much MIS-information there is out there - and most of it -as it pertains to compressors - is in this thread!

1. BLACK PIPE is the ONLY "best" material. It sheds heat best and causes the water vapour in your air to condsensate so it can be caught in the traps. Rubber air line is worst (air won't condensate), copper and PVC next. Make sure it's not galvanized as that stuff will peel off and end up in your tools!
2. Copper doesn't shed heat, bends easily (i.e. when bumped, etc) and solder is weak when cold and weaker when warm (warm shop, warm days, warm air from compressor!).
3. PVC is dangerous as it can blow out if waeakened or at glued joints. It won't condensate water and indeed, doesn't like water from the compressor.
4. Pipes need to be angled down AWAY from the compressor so water vapour can run to the seperator.
5. A regulator should be used at the compressor to restrict the high pressures from the compressor. Many filters and seperators have a 150 psi max and most big compressors run 175. You don't need more than 150 for anything: incl. blasting, blowing and tools.
Also: be sure to have a rubber piece from compressor to steel line for vibrations. After a sperator, use a pellet-type or heated airdyer before your sandblaster and paint hoses. I ran a T after my dryer for these two uses.Use 1/2" pipe for systems under 75' and 3/4" pipe for over 75'.

If you want it froma professional source: the TP Tools Website has great instructions with illustrations.

 

[e-tek]

People here have done it both ways.. depends if you want to drain your compressor more or the drops more, I have sloped mine towards the drops..
the risers they do the most work separating the water because the water (mostly) cannot travel upwards.

I thought the compressor has a drain to drain it's condensate and the lines have traps to drain their condensate. But you're right - there's always more than one way to drain your condensate!

 

[nissan_crawler]

At the risk of :
It's still unreal how much MIS-information there is out there - and most of it -as it pertains to compressors - is in this thread!

Some of which is in your very own post, even. Black pipe is THE best? That's a pretty bold statement. I've seen black pipe rusted to hell, I have yet to see copper do it.Please show me a rusted copper pipe.

You're full of misinformation yourself.

Copper doesn't shed heat? Why is it used in radiators, heat exchangers, radiant heat baseboards, etc.? It wouldn't be very effective if it didn't shed heat, now would it?

Solder is weak? 95-5 solder at 100* on 1/8-1" pipe is good for 1090 p.s.i. Call me crazy, but I doubt your compressor can go anywhere freaking close to that.

Most big compressors run 175 p.s.i? Only if they're two stage.

1/2" pipe for under 75, and 3/4" for over? What if it's 3,000 feet, is 3/4" still good? I think not. What if you need high flow for 5'? 1/2" still good? I think not.

You're right, there sure is some misinformation out there.

 

[RAYJAY]

People here have done it both ways.. depends if you want to drain your compressor more or the drops more, I have sloped mine towards the drops..
the risers they do the most work separating the water because the water (mostly) cannot travel upwards.

and have a big drop at the compressor so it does not go back to the tank and since water does not travel up hill my drops are really dry

 

[PoorOwner]

Yeah, don't knock copper, I am running copper and no problems, no need to worry about rust down the road, should I need to do painting years later, I don't need to worry about rust and crud coming out of black pipe. I also don't really drain my drops often at all, they can hold the water for months, no worry about rusting out.

Just don't go a taking steel beam and hitting the copper pipes up there then you won't dent it. I put in over 50' and didn't put in a single dent.

It's actually highly effective solution for a home garage, with a little higher cost.

 

[OldCarGuy]

Use either black pipe or copper..

Though my personal preference is black pipe. I have used black pipe for air lines for over forty years. Both in plants where I worked and my garages. They will take more abuse than copper. By all means, NEVER even think about using PVC. And when installed correctly black pipe will give you a lifetime of trouble free use. . Plus I have never had any problems with rust or sentiment.

In my retirement garages I did run several 1/ 2” drops in copper. Only because they have a smaller outside diameter and look better running on the surface. All the rest of the 1” main runs and 1/ 2” drops are black pipe. And nearly all of them are run in the studding or above the ceiling joists hidden behind 5/8” drywall.

 

[kvom]

Is it correct to say that heat emission is important only when running air tools for a long period continuously? My "plan" has been just to run tubing from the compressor to a hose reel. Any reason to use metal pipes in this situation?

 

[e-tek]

RAYJAY-now that's a nice system!! I agree that the hose "up" from the compressor is key as it keeps some of the water from traveling from the compressor to the system. Then you have risers which won't allow the water that's condensed in the pipes into the next line. Did you paint it?

 

[e-tek]

E-tek reply to: nissan_crawler
Please show me a rusted copper pipe. [/thread] Re-read my post, I never said copper would rust!

You're full of misinformation yourself. I didn't mean to say this was the ONLY way to do it.I recognize some applications will use different materials - I guess I was generalizing it for the hobby shop to the body/mechanic shop. I've seen many and was just throwing all the info into a single post for people setting up their first shop. I'd love to hear more from guys using copper.

Copper doesn't shed heat? Why is it used in radiators, heat exchangers, radiant heat baseboards, etc.? It wouldn't be very effective if it didn't shed heat, now would it? Why then do they paint copper used in heat-transfer applications black? Copper doesn't condense vapour the best and I still say it's too soft to run along walls in. Back to you first note - it's used because it doesn't rust - that's a definite advantage - it just needs to be protected from damage.And AGAIN, it doesn't condense water vapour as well as black pipe!
Solder is weak? 95-5 solder at 100* on 1/8-1" pipe is good for 1090 p.s.i. Call me crazy, but I doubt your compressor can go anywhere freaking close to that. Your not crazy - but then neither are most do-it-your-selfers proficient solderers! I've seen copper systems blow out several times.

Most big compressors run 175 p.s.i? Only if they're two stage. Again, I was talking about hobby to body/mechanic shop application.

1/2" pipe for under 75, and 3/4" for over? What if it's 3,000 feet, is 3/4" still good? I think not. What if you need high flow for 5'? 1/2" still good? I think not. See above - not too many 3000' shops here!

Anyway, looks like there's lot of other good info in this and the other thread. RAYJAY's system is pretty much right on - learn from it!

It's not like you CAN'T use copper, hell, you could use Rubber hose all the way around your shop - it's just not a good practice!!