EXTREMELY disappointed in Starrett today.

[darkzero]

I think he meant "used to" ... i recall back in the "old days" in the 50's and 60's.. made in Japan wasn't a mark of quality... Fairly or otherwise.. Today, it's known that Japan is on par with Germany for workmanship. Heck, I've got a Suzuki harmonica from Japan that sells for over $5000 retail, and a Yamaha electric keyboard/piano that sells for about the same, not to mention my Canon 5D MkII and lenses that go for even more...

Made in Japan is great stuff.

That makes sense. I don't have decades under my belt like many of the old timers (err, I mean experienced people) so I don't know how it really was back then. But I could understand with the conflicts back then that many would not support a Japanese made product.

I could understand the comments about QC & COO. I have a Mitu square set that is made in Mexico! Kind of pissed me off when I got them so I can perfectly understand how you would feel about the China made Starrett stuff. Sure a product can meet or exceed quality standards but just the fact that you see made in China on it leaves a different thought in your head. Personally for me I don't think that will ever change or it will be a very long time before it could & I am Chinese (but I'm made in the US)!

 

[dolfans]

Doug Starrett and Steve Walsh(a headhunter what we called him) another big wheel at Starrett does not care about the long time employes. I use to work there and was laid off from the plant in town(Mt Airy NC) They laid off guys that was there for 20 to 35 yrs or more bc of money(vac time was 4 weeks). Yes i understand that you have to do things to last and make money. We(the plant)did/does granite blocks(moved up north) cnc machines,bandsaws and holesaws(paint and lable).Have a dept called screwlots,eb weld and shipped out levels,and flatstock. Starrtt use to be a very good place to work at but not now.

 

[MD11]

So Starrett no longer lists their products as Global made & USA made? I remember looking at one of their catalogs a few years back where the overseas stuff was listed with a globe symbol or something like that.

well it does smack as suspicious when they remove the COO, but if you read his 2nd response to me... he made a logical argument why they took it out of their print catalogue... which is that if mid-year they change COO on an item, that instantly makes all the prior catalogues inaccurate... and he went on to say that with their "new website" he's directed their IT guys to add COO to all of their on-line catalogues. Which for me is a must! I do think they "Hint" at COO if you look at their dial calipers, you'll see "Only US Made" in the description of the 120A series.. Also if you look at their vernier calipers, you'll see some for $120ish and others for $600ish (6" size).... there is no mention of COO, but the price almost begs one to believe the more expensive (123) is US Made, which it apparently is.

I wonder how many more tool companies will start doing this & it bothers me. Places like Enco, MSC, Mcmaster, etc actually list USA made & import more often & not even mention the manufacturer.

Well, sadly unless they step up and honestly mark their products... we'll have to pressure congress to enact laws amending the FTC's authority.. as of now, COO is mandatory on packaging, but that's about it.

 

[MD11]

... Personally for me I don't think that will ever change or it will be a very long time before it could & I am Chinese (but I'm made in the US)!

some of the biggest anti-made in China snobs i've ever meet have been Chinese... including in China. I travel a lot (fly the plane in my name), and I'm in contact with a lot of Chinese.. They love their German or American made "Stuff" and hate anything made in China, considering it below the quality of the others...

 

[oldtools]

Yes. I do believe the German work and business ethic is better than the Chinese one (exempting Taiwan)

Are you saying that a German Starrett employee is more ethical than a Chinese Starrett employee? Do you have any proof?

 

[MD11]

Are you saying that a German Starrett employee is more ethical than a Chinese Starrett employee? Do you have any proof?

I don't think Starrett has any German factories first off...

however, I personally do operate in Germany and China a lot, and I have seen an order of magnitude difference in the business and personal ethics of the Germans vs Chinese... The Chinese government is completely non-transparrent whereas the German government is anything but.. there simply is no comparison between the two.

We can also discuss the theft of intellectual property articles are all over the internet but if you use google, you'll save me a lot of typing..

start with the New Balance shoes case..

or how about researching those knock off Gibson or Martin guitars?

 

[William Payne]

Not starret but when I got my mitutoyo combination square set was very suprised to see made in usa on all the bits. My boss has a older made in japan set.

 

[JayL]

How come there was no inspection certificate on OP's purchase?

These are precision tools.

 

[Your Father]

This thread has been interesting to read, I appreciate it. To the couple of guys typing "Mitzys", knock it off. Its annoying and a little gay.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

As far as the ethics of Chinese workers, I have a few things to add. My uncle and cousin own and work at their factory in China that manufactures water coolers. They have told me that if they don't have their Canadian quality control people on the shop floor at all times, their workers almost seem to take pride in slipping their scrap into shipments for North America.

Not only that, when they have to do business with other Chinese businesses, they get frustrated because no one seems to be interested in a fair agreement, they just seem to want to screw the other guy as hard as possible.

 

[MD11]

How come there was no inspection certificate on OP's purchase?

These are precision tools.

it was made in China for one...

For me that meant even if it had one, it was not worth the paper it was printed on. You should see the way the Chinese play with tolerances.. it's a wonder they haven't crashed more airplanes, but then 75% of their captions are wide eyes..

 

[MD11]

This thread has been interesting to read, I appreciate it. To the couple of guys typing "Mitzys", knock it off. Its annoying and a little gay.

I did that after someone else did it... only assuming that it was accepted slang.. I will knock it off however.

btw... don't get this thread wrong...

AT THIS TIME, you can still get top grade USA made Starrett.... but who knows where we're heading if more people like me don't' start becoming more vocal. (and use the old "Dollar Vote" )

 

[Trucky]

This thread has been interesting to read, I appreciate it. To the couple of guys typing "Mitzys", knock it off. Its annoying and a little gay.

Seriously? You can go ahead and block me if you don't want to read it.

 

[MD11]

Seriously?

maybe he works for them or maybe he got burned by a Jewish girl once on a date, who knows?

 

[porphyre]

I dunno... my father is always saying stupid stuff...

 

[TommyD]

Won't buy Japanes either huh? Mitutoyo makes very fine products & I'm a big fan of Mitutoyo. In fact 95% of my measuring tools are Mitu with no regrets or issues at all.

Not at all...I'm saying back when I was buying tools for my trade, Tool, Die and Moldmaking, Starrett, B&W, Pratt and Whitnet and a few more names were made in the USA, I'm talking mid 70's. I wouldn't hesitate to buy Japanese if it came down to it...USA, Japan, MAYBE Taiwan.....make myself. I've got an old pair of Helios dial calipers and some old antique indicators, a couple of old Gerstner wood tool boxes...and a LOT of antique wind up clocks.

When I was a kid there was a saying.... cheap junk, made in Japan. This was the early 60's and Japanese products were about where Chinese products are now.

 

[MD11]

Well, to his credit, and I mean that sincerely, he engages his customers and stands his ground... I think he's wrong on China, but I don't run a multimillion dollar multi-national company with 130+ years history that carries my name on it.... I'm just a customer, what do I know?

I know what I'd do if I were him... hunker down, screw the low cost market segment and growth for the sake of growth... and make the world best US made measuring tools period. Take pride in my company being American, employing skilled American workers, and demanding a lot of them, in return rewarding them for good work with good pay and job security... That seems to work for the Germans quite well, and I'm sure it can work here as it has for decades past.

John if you ever decide you want to start "Paulding" tools and need some seed money or investment capital... be sure to PM me.




As with all email's read from the bottom...

Somehow I don't think I'll be hearing back from him anymore.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


***,

You are comparing apples with oranges. The Cat 3020 is stainless steel and 3X more accurate. Mitutoyo sources a lot of their stuff. I am not apologizing for the price, the 3020 is a superior tool. If you don’t believe me buy the this Mitutoyo square from Grainger.

DAS

From: xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:40 AM
To: Douglas A. Starrett
Subject: Re: S3020Z

By the way Doug, I double checked and the Mituyoto Squares in the same price range as the 3020's are made in the USA actually. When it says COO is subject to change, that's a CYA statement Grainger makes on all items incase companies do change production. I don't think people mind if a $40 Caliper or $50 12" Square comes from China... it's the "higher priced" stuff that gets people upset.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/MITUTOYO-Steel-Square-1ZRU1?Pid=search




***,

Labeling is a logistical nightmare when you are managing as many items that we handle, but we are doing a good job of it. When is says The L.S. Starrett Co. Athol, Mass USA it’s made in the U.S. I think we are right up front with our labeling and packaging, when it is a globally sourced product we put the country of origin on the Starrett label. As I said before I am proud of what we manufacturer overseas we have been doing it since 1956 and we aren’t trying to hide it.

DAS

From: xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:40 AM
To: Douglas A. Starrett
Subject: Re: S3020Z

Thanks for the follow up Doug,

Yes It does state as you wrote, but my recent purchase of other Starrett items came with a little certificate inside; "inspection certificate" which was signed and stated "American Made", with the exception of the 3020 which came in a plastic box looking more like my 120A-6 dial caliper, only it stated "China" on the label.

The company name and address doesn't suffice in my experience. I think many Americans look at the back of a box and see that and "assume" it's US Made. I did contact your company via the [email protected] address and did get confirmation that it was US Made very quickly.

It's funny, but I noticed (and all companies do this now, like Klein and Channel Lock, both of whom are now making some over seas stuff for Home Depot)... IF a product is US made, there's a big US Flag, and MADE IN USA in big letters on the front of the package, if on the other hand it's made in China, you have to look long and hard and you might then find it in small print on the BACK side of the package.
xxxx,





On Feb 15, 2012, at 6:21 AM, Douglas A. Starrett wrote:

On this 77-6 Fay divider. The box should have a label that says L. S. Starrett Co. Athol, Mass. USA. Please confirm

Doug



From: xxxxx [mailto:xxxx@**.com]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 6:06 PM
To: Douglas A. Starrett
Subject: Re: S3020Z

Whats more Doug, today I just for a 77B-6 Fay and there was no country of origin either on the tool
Or the box. Not even in the website. Why?

This tool has always been US made.

 

[TommyD]

I wonder how much mark up there is when it's made in China and sold here in the USA?

I think we should all take the time and write these manufacturers who have their products made in China and sold here and let them know how we feel. I heard on NPR today that more and more companies are in sourcing here in the USA. Guess the expose on, I think it was ABC News, on household items made domestically in a household vs Chinese has caused a backlash.....that and the fact that souvenirs of Washington tourist attractions sold in their gift shops were made in China. I LOVE these shows...

Props to you MD11

 

[oldtools]

I don't think Starrett has any German factories first off...

however, I personally do operate in Germany and China a lot, and I have seen an order of magnitude difference in the business and personal ethics of the Germans vs Chinese... The Chinese government is completely non-transparrent whereas the German government is anything but.. there simply is no comparison between the two.

We can also discuss the theft of intellectual property articles are all over the internet but if you use google, you'll save me a lot of typing..

start with the New Balance shoes case..

or how about researching those knock off Gibson or Martin guitars?

If you are talking in general, unethical business practice are universal, not just an Asian thing. If you think all American and European business are pure and ethical, you are living in denial. There are unethical business pratices all over the world (though there seem to be more in China). We are talking strictly here about Starrett. Starrett has a uniform quality control in place for all it's global facilities, so I don't see how just because a product is made by Starrett Chinese employee (ethical or unethical) it is automatically inferior or junk. I would like to see some proof that Starrett Chinese employee are unethical (and American Starrett employee are ethical) and that Starrett Chinese products are inferior.

 

[oldtools]

some of the biggest anti-made in China snobs i've ever meet have been Chinese... including in China. I travel a lot (fly the plane in my name), and I'm in contact with a lot of Chinese.. They love their German or American made "Stuff" and hate anything made in China, considering it below the quality of the others...

It is pretty universal that people prefer higher quality if given a choice. Why don't you ask American whether they prefer Rolls Royce or Chevy, Rolex or Hamilton, Louis Vitton or Mary Kay, Hazet or CM raise panel?

 

[Trucky]

If you're looking for proof, you might as well find some yourself.

I don't really see this going anywhere anytime soon.

Point is, he doesn't care for getting products made in places he doesn't want them to be from, and he doesn't have to go through 500 case studies and experiments (as an example of just finding information for this topic, not being literal here.) to find *you* proof.

In other words, I'd prefer ya get off his back about it. If he feels the need to keep going with that discussion, then I'm sure he will. However from over here, you two seem to just be running in circles.

 

[MD11]

If you're looking for proof, you might as well find some yourself.

I don't really see this going anywhere anytime soon.

Point is, he doesn't care for getting products made in places he doesn't want them to be from, and he doesn't have to go through 500 case studies and experiments (as an example of just finding information for this topic, not being literal here.) to find *you* proof.

In other words, I'd prefer ya get off his back about it. If he feels the need to keep going with that discussion, then I'm sure he will. However from over here, you two seem to just be running in circles.

+100

I somehow doubt he is unbiased in his view anyway.

He thinks I don't buy Asian, meanwhile I have literally 10's of thousands worth of Japanese made optics, musical instruments and other items.