Horrible Kijiji Tool Box Experience!!

[ishiboo]

That's NOT how liens work. I'm going to have to challenge anyone to prove that a Snap-on box financed by truck/credit has an actual lien on it.

Liens MUST be issued by a court of law, unless you're the government, in which case, you can put them on anything your little government heart desires.

Further, property securing a loan typically needs to be titled in some way, or it remains in the lender's possession.

Can anyone post anything from a contract that somehow gives Snap-on (or any other truck brand) some magical rights that nobody else has?

Basically, disprove that this is an unsecured loan from the creditor.

No, a lien on a toolbox is not necessarily filed with a government agency, but there IS a lien on the toolbox. It's developed in the contract itself. There is no power Snap-on has that others do not, it's simple contract law called a PMSI.

As MrMark said, it may be registered in the UCC database, or it may not... but the contract creates the lien.

 

[ishiboo]

I'm failing to see how untitled merchandise (because a tool box and tools doesn't fall under the category of "property", really) on what appears to be an unsecured loan can be "repossessed" by a dealer, without the voluntary relinquishment by the possessor of that merchandise.

Folks here are treating the tool box like it's a car - an item that has a legal title to it that must be transferred through official channels, and serves as proof of ownership - I'd like to see a title for a tool box.

You can foreclose on anything with a lien on it - it does not have to be a house or car. Even without a lien created right away, you can also sue someone who hasn't paid a loan and GET a lien against it, if they still have it, but I'm sure Snap-on's agreement does create a lien.

The lack of an "official" title in your mind does not prevent a lien.

The buyer is protected IF the transaction was conducted in good faith - i.e. you were unaware that the property was secured with a lien against it. IE, if you knew it had a lien and you bought it, they could technically repossess the property. They would have to prove you knew, which is hard.

Buyer beware, but on a toolbox, just get a written bill of sale which explicitly states there is no lien. Make a copy of the person's ID and you're good to go.

 

[Super Sport]

Nothing needs be proved with complete certainty, not even the judgment of death in a death case. The standard for this is more likely than not or 51 percent. I think they can meet that burden.

The lien is created at the time money is loaned just like a mortgage. The act of filing the financing statement perfects the lenders security interest which takes priority over all subsequent purchasers.

Actually, in court, it must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt." 51% is not. More like 80%.

OP, you were stupid to try to let this dealer take your box. I would make them pry it out of my cold dead hands. Next time I buy a box like this used I will get a bill of sale, but I'm not too concerned. I would certainly put up a fight!

 

[Brad54]

Pretty huge warning signs with no serial number and talking the guy down nearly 50% off with ease. And it can be traced back and reclaimed if the previous owners cop to it. Pretty simple. It was a risk. If it pays off it pays off but remember it could very well be that dealer who gets F'd in this situation. I absolutely agree they're idiots for not riveting or stamping the information in some place. I'm actually shocked they dont do it already.

The serial number is a sticker.
I rip the tag off mattresses, too.
If it really is a serial number to identify the box in case of theft, Snap-on users sure aren't getting their money's worth there.
Peel the sticker off and prove it belongs to anybody but the guy who says "It's mine."

I suppose the snap-on people could go back and get a sworn affidavit from everyone involved, but that's the only way I see them having a leg to stand on.
Somewhere is the original owner, and he signed a contract to buy that box. HE is on the hook for the money, and if he's not in possession of it, and hasn't reported it stolen, then Snap-on would, or should, see HIM in court to reclaim their money.

If the dealer comes back to you and starts making a fuss, tell him to take one of those expensive hammers off his truck and go pound sand.

-Brad

 

[metal4130]

2 or 3 years ago I bought a box with no serial number on it. When I called Snap On about it they told me that if I pulled all the drawers out of the box the serial number should be stamped inside.

Turns out my box was one of the first Epiq prototypes so mine didn't have a number anywhere. Since I never found a number I can't be 100% about this theory but I was told it directly by Snap On.

 

[Mikefromcny]

I'll play devils advocate..I'd tell the dealer to go **** in his hat. What if you made it a home box? or Sell it? out of sight, out of mind. Once you "sell" it, whats the dealer gonna do??

 

[jkruger54]

2 or 3 years ago I bought a box with no serial number on it. When I called Snap On about it they told me that if I pulled all the drawers out of the box the serial number should be stamped inside.

Turns out my box was one of the first Epiq prototypes so mine didn't have a number anywhere. Since I never found a number I can't be 100% about this theory but I was told it directly by Snap On.

I'll have to check on this tomorrow. I would like to know what the serial number is on this box so I can record it. Not likely to get it back if it ever got stolen but at least I will have it.

 

[c/o say]

And to think some think tool truck tools are so high priced do to being better. Yes they are top of the line but most of the cost is due to dead beats that do not pay. Then they sell it or pawn it with out paying for it and the dealers are out the cash and the product. My matco dealer says he will not go into pawn shops do to seeing stuff that he sold and never got payed for. But unless they can prove its the box in question they can't take it. They should have jumped quick when you said you would pay them some. But they said no so tell them they need to watch out who they give credit to.

 

[ishiboo]

And to think some think tool truck tools are so high priced do to being better. Yes they are top of the line but most of the cost is due to dead beats that do not pay. Then they sell it or pawn it with out paying for it and the dealers are out the cash and the product. My matco dealer says he will not go into pawn shops do to seeing stuff that he sold and never got payed for. But unless they can prove its the box in question they can't take it. They should have jumped quick when you said you would pay them some. But they said no so tell them they need to watch out who they give credit to.

For truck accounts this would contribute to markup on truck purchases, but for things purchased with Snap-on credit like a $$$ toolbox, it's reflected not in the product prices but in the interest rates people pay via Snap-on credit.

 

[pipsters]

Do Snap-On dealers have a legal right to even inspect your property? I would hope not. That is something even the police can't do without a reason. I don't think I could ever buy something that would allow a private party access to my property.

Could a Snap-On truck come to your personal residence and inspect your tool box? What makes it different if it's at a shop?

 

[sdguy55]

This makes me want to scribe my sn on the inside of my box.

 

[Squints]

Yeah I wasn't thinking in saying they could take the box... I'm thankful that my co worker stepped in and made me come to my senses. Yeah and to think I was willing to pay snap on for something that I had already paid for!
Goes to show that I can't think straight when flustered.....

Now that I have come to my senses they will have to pry it from my cold dead hands, after all it's my money out there! I did buy it in good faith.

 

[Squints]

Do Snap-On dealers have a legal right to even inspect your property? I would hope not. That is something even the police can't do without a reason. I don't think I could ever buy something that would allow a private party access to my property.

Could a Snap-On truck come to your personal residence and inspect your tool box? What makes it different if it's at a shop?

As far as I know they don't... Being that I had nothing to hide I let him look at the box...

 

[Brad54]

I would install an eye bolt through the bottom of the box, and chain it in place in the shop.
It'd **** to come in one day and find out that the dealer told the boss he was repossessing your box due to whatever reason, and there you sit with no box, no tools and no recourse.

I believe there have been posts on this site about guys getting their box repossessed with everything in it.

-Brad

 

[jkruger54]

I made a theft deterrent device for my KR1000 out of a super high voltage stun gun and a mercury switch. Any movement of the box produced a nasty shock to the hands of the person.... if he was wearing conductive shoes and and the floor was wet.

 

[jamesc]

I would install an eye bolt through the bottom of the box, and chain it in place in the shop.
It'd **** to come in one day and find out that the dealer told the boss he was repossessing your box due to whatever reason, and there you sit with no box, no tools and no recourse.

I believe there have been posts on this site about guys getting their box repossessed with everything in it.

-Brad

then you sue the **** out of him, and have him arrested for theft.

you could tell everyone you built the box your self at home on your spare time thats why there is no serial number. its a very high quality knock off.

 

[dieselmike]

you got a krl for 2500?????? pics or it didnt happen!!

 

[kythri]

No, a lien on a toolbox is not necessarily filed with a government agency, but there IS a lien on the toolbox. It's developed in the contract itself. There is no power Snap-on has that others do not, it's simple contract law called a PMSI.

As MrMark said, it may be registered in the UCC database, or it may not... but the contract creates the lien.

Then that really doesn't sound like a lien. I'm not going to swear to it, but my understanding was that you can only get a lien once a court has approved it, and that liens are not something one can contractually place onto an item.

Secured interests are a different thing.

 

[Skin]

Then that really doesn't sound like a lien. I'm not going to swear to it, but my understanding was that you can only get a lien once a court has approved it, and that liens are not something one can contractually place onto an item.

Secured interests are a different thing.

From what i understand its a General Lien placed on any merchandise that isnt paid for. Basically its still Snap-Ons until its released by fulfilling the obligation of the payment. Not much different than a car repo really.

 

[el tanque prohibido]

Yes I'd say we definitely need some pictures of this fraudulent box.

 

[dayid]

Two words- Prove it! No way in hell they can prove that box is the one they are after... simple as that

You are under no obligation to be out the money. You bought it in good faith, and the corporation can not prove you have something they have a claim to.

This isn't far off from someone buying a large TV with a credit card then selling the TV, but not paying the credit card company. It's up to the company that provided credit to go after the person who made a signed agreement with them.

You are under no binding contract with anyone else's creditor.

 

[rsieracki]

I smell a troll. Seriously..how about buying box and shutting up. As in it is nobody's biz but you and the guy you purchased it from unless someone can prove otherwise. Sounds like you practicaly were begging the snap-on guys to find a reason this "could" be a box that is un-accounted for. Then about to hand it over to some truck dealer? ARE PEOPLE THIS STUPID? You purchased a box you felt was legit. You did nothing wrong...but it is stupid to say "I got this screaming deal....anyone think they may have a claim to this box?" If snap-on lost track of a box that is their problem and only a problem if they can PROVE this is said box. You don't know that and they don't know that and it is their responsibility find the answer if they can. Sounds like if you are not a troll, then you are too nervous to buy used things....just sell it for $2,500 this week and free yourself of the worry.

This hits it right on the head (less the trolling part)... had you not said anything he (mr snapon) wouldnt have been any wiser. it like why ask questions that dont need to be answered and NEVER volunteer info that may adversly effect you

I see both sides but what if you just bought the box and said nothing. No serial number no title its yours plain and simple.SNIP The seller swore that it wasn't stolen then you did your part. If the police asked you would have the sellers name for them.

Now SO would think differently of course and yea they got ripped off. But they took the chance of selling the box on credit. If they required all purchases be paid in cash at sale then they would never be out any money. Since they took a bet they lost this one. Its not like anybody doesn't' know how risky tool credit is?

The loan collateral is the box, hence the lien.

the OP didnt make the loan agreement nor did he agree to ASSUME the loan with purchase, he bought a toolbox its up to the seller to pay off the loan.

The flip side of that is they might threaten to sue, thinking the OP will cave because he doesn't want to incur the legal costs to defend himself against Snap-on's legal team.

-Brad

If if comes to that (which it wont) the OP needs to 'defend himself'... go to court the first FEW times, say he cant find cousel, ask for a continuance... After getting jacked off 3 times Snap On will drop it... they get billed everytime their legal team goes to court... it's not worth their investment.

I bought a brand new Snap-on box (KRA2007) last year from a local guy on C/L. The price was incredibly low ($250.00) and I asked him where he got it and why he was selling it for so little. His response was that it was a gift from his father in law and he needed the cash right now to keep from being evicted. He's not a mechanic and had little use for it. I assumed that the serial number was stamped in it the way the older boxes are but when I got it to the shop I noticed some glue from a sticker close to where the serial number usually is. He may have taken the sticker off not knowing that it was where the serial number was located.
The way I see it I bought it in good faith and it belongs to me now.

Exactly what i would have done and a lot of others would have done. if anyone wants to debate morals with me over that, make sure you can prove that all those tools you've bought anywhere are from an authorized dealer (not ebay, CL, GJ classifieds etc) so we know you didnt buy used tools that a balance may be owed on.

Two words- Prove it! No way in hell they can prove that box is the one they are after... simple as that

bingo!!!

Pretty huge warning signs with no serial number and talking the guy down nearly 50% off with ease. And it can be traced back and reclaimed if the previous owners cop to it. Pretty simple. It was a risk. If it pays off it pays off but remember it could very well be that dealer who gets F'd in this situation. I absolutely agree they're idiots for not riveting or stamping the information in some place. I'm actually shocked they dont do it already.

youd think being a 10000 box on wheels and this not being snapons first rodeo they would find a way to ingrain a GPS or something into a box with a balance on it.

Even more so considering they are trying to use that as and identifying number in the box when the owner stops payment.

OP, you bought a box you suspected could have been stolen or not fully paid, that's why you asked the snap on guy to check this guys name. The fact that there was no serial number and that you got it for real cheap are usually giveaways as to the fact that something isn't right.

Good luck keeping this thing.

lesson learned is either to shut up or dont buy it... no gray area for the OP anymore

I'll play devils advocate..I'd tell the dealer to go **** in his hat. What if you made it a home box? or Sell it? out of sight, out of mind. Once you "sell" it, whats the dealer gonna do??

should have told me to spit my beer at the screen "**** in his hat" is the funniest thing ive heard in a long time/

As far as I know they don't... Being that I had nothing to hide I let him look at the box...

im sure yours (box in question) isnt the only XXXX color box they sold in that area so without that number... tell him to **** in his hat

I made a theft deterrent device for my KR1000 out of a super high voltage stun gun and a mercury switch. Any movement of the box produced a nasty shock to the hands of the person.... if he was wearing conductive shoes and and the floor was wet.

thats awesome

you got a krl for 2500?????? pics or it didnt happen!!

CERTAINLY NOT... Well dont show pics till the litigation is over or its settled... the less 'help' they have identifying the box, the better off you are.

 

[MrMark]

Oh, I don't disagree with you.

What I'm saying is that, unless the creditors in this case have legal powers that most other creditors don't, then an issue like this is solely between the lender and the purchaser.

I'm failing to see how untitled merchandise (because a tool box and tools doesn't fall under the category of "property", really) on what appears to be an unsecured loan can be "repossessed" by a dealer, without the voluntary relinquishment by the possessor of that merchandise.

Folks here are treating the tool box like it's a car - an item that has a legal title to it that must be transferred through official channels, and serves as proof of ownership - I'd like to see a title for a tool box.

You are way off here. Trust me on this.

The UCC sets up a system whereby people who loan money to purchase goods can secure their loans by filing with the secretary of state. A lien is created by the security interest which is created by contract pursuant to the UCC. This is very much a collateralized or secured load very much like a mortgage or a car loan.

Title has nothing to do with it. A lender of money to purchase goods can have a lien against those goods no matter what they are.

This is the way the entire commercial system works in this country.

 

[MrMark]

You can foreclose on anything with a lien on it - it does not have to be a house or car. Even without a lien created right away, you can also sue someone who hasn't paid a loan and GET a lien against it, if they still have it, but I'm sure Snap-on's agreement does create a lien.

The lack of an "official" title in your mind does not prevent a lien.

The buyer is protected IF the transaction was conducted in good faith - i.e. you were unaware that the property was secured with a lien against it. IE, if you knew it had a lien and you bought it, they could technically repossess the property. They would have to prove you knew, which is hard.

Buyer beware, but on a toolbox, just get a written bill of sale which explicitly states there is no lien. Make a copy of the person's ID and you're good to go.

Not quite true. There is no protection available to a BFP for value unless the security interest has not been perfected. The purchaser is absolutely required to check the UCC database with the secretary of state to ensure that there is no priority interest in the goods.

So, like I posted earlier, as long as SO filed the UCC1 statement with the secretary of state they are protected and take priority against ANY subsequent purchaser. It doesn't matter that the subsequent purchaser had no actual knowledge of the lien. The law gives them constructive knowledge of the security interest by virtue of the UCC filing of record.

The security holder can repossess (another right created by contract and sanctioned by the UCC) against any subsequent purchaser so long as it can be done without a breach of the peace.

 

[MrMark]

Actually, in court, it must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt." 51% is not. More like 80%.

OP, you were stupid to try to let this dealer take your box. I would make them pry it out of my cold dead hands. Next time I buy a box like this used I will get a bill of sale, but I'm not too concerned. I would certainly put up a fight!

haha

That's the criminal standard.


The civil standard is a mere preponderance of the evidence, or in layman's terms: 51 percent. Snap-on would have no trouble proving up the chain of custody of this box under that standard.

This is a civil matter unless we are in Texas, which has created a the crime of selling without right goods with a security interest, and then it would be a crime committed by the first seller and then we get into receiving stolen property.

Civil fraud has the higher standard of clear and convincing.

Pretty basic stuff here.

 

[MrMark]

UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE

U.C.C. - ARTICLE 9 - SECURED TRANSACTIONS; SALES OF ACCOUNTS AND CHATTEL PAPER
..PART 5. DEFAULT

§ 9-503. Secured Party's Right to Take Possession After Default.

Unless otherwise agreed a secured party has on default the right to take possession of the collateral. In taking possession a secured party may proceed without judicial process if this can be done without breach of the peace or may proceed by action. If the security agreement so provides the secured party may require the debtor to assemble the collateral and make it available to the secured party at a place to be designated by the secured party which is reasonably convenient to both parties. Without removal a secured party may render equipment unusable, and may dispose of collateral on the debtor's premises under Section 9-504.

 

[MrMark]

U.C.C. - ARTICLE 9 - SECURED TRANSACTIONS; SALES OF ACCOUNTS AND CHATTEL PAPER
..PART 3. RIGHTS OF THIRD PARTIES; PERFECTED AND UNPERFECTED SECURITY INTERESTS; RULES OF PRIORITY

§ 9-306. "Proceeds"; Secured Party's Rights on Disposition of Collateral.

(1) "Proceeds" includes whatever is received upon the sale, exchange, collection or other disposition of collateral or proceeds. Insurance payable by reason of loss or damage to the collateral is proceeds, except to the extent that it is payable to a person other than a party to the security agreement. Money, checks, deposit accounts, and the like are "cash proceeds". All other proceeds are "non-cash proceeds".

(2) Except where this Article otherwise provides, a security interest continues in collateral notwithstanding sale, exchange or other disposition thereof unless the disposition was authorized by the secured party in the security agreement or otherwise, and also continues in any identifiable proceeds including collections received by the debtor.

(3) The security interest in proceeds is a continuously perfected security interest if the interest in the original collateral was perfected but it ceases to be a perfected security interest and becomes unperfected ten days after receipt of the proceeds by the debtor unless

(a) a filed financing statement covers the original collateral and the proceeds are collateral in which a security interest may be perfected by filing in the office or offices where the financing statement has been filed and, if the proceeds are acquired with cash proceeds, the description of collateral in the financing statement indicates the types of property constituting the proceeds; or
(b) a filed financing statement covers the original collateral and the proceeds are identifiable cash proceeds; or
(c) the security interest in the proceeds is perfected before the expiration of the ten day period.
Except as provided in this section, a security interest in proceeds can be perfected only by the methods or under the circumstances permitted in this Article for original collateral of the same type.

 

[MrMark]

whatever anyone takes away from this thread, the one thing that they should, despite all the chest thumping and posting with zero knowledge, is that the security interest or lien goes with the box, and that your rights as a subsequent purchase - no matter your innocent state of mind - are junior to the lienholder.

It does not matter at all that you did not contract with SO. If you think about it for a while you will understand why the system must work that way. The UCC is set up to protect people who extend credit so that people can buy and sell goods. If the company extending credit could simply be defeated by some deadbeat "selling" the goods to someone else then the system would fall apart and no one would lend money or the cost of lending would be too high.

The law provides every favor to the purchase money lender. Remember that and remember to check the UCC filings before big purchases of items that you have good reason to believe may be financed. Of course, some of you may be risk takers and not care. Others are more risk averse and should protect themselves by doing a simple search with the secretary of state's office.

 

[MrMark]

For Kythri

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lien

The types of liens we are talking about here would be called consensual chattel mortgages at common law.

You were hung up on the nonconsensual types of liens that you were familiar with.

 

[ptschram]

Then that really doesn't sound like a lien. I'm not going to swear to it, but my understanding was that you can only get a lien once a court has approved it, and that liens are not something one can contractually place onto an item.

Secured interests are a different thing.

Look at the back of any vehicle title, the word LIENHOLDER and LIEN figure prominently.

 

[ptschram]

whatever anyone takes away from this thread, the one thing that they should, despite all the chest thumping and posting with zero knowledge, is that the security interest or lien goes with the box, and that your rights as a subsequent purchase - no matter your innocent state of mind - are junior to the lienholder.

It does not matter at all that you did not contract with SO. If you think about it for a while you will understand why the system must work that way. The UCC is set up to protect people who extend credit so that people can buy and sell goods. If the company extending credit could simply be defeated by some deadbeat "selling" the goods to someone else then the system would fall apart and no one would lend money or the cost of lending would be too high.

The law provides every favor to the purchase money lender. Remember that and remember to check the UCC filings before big purchases of items that you have good reason to believe may be financed. Of course, some of you may be risk takers and not care. Others are more risk averse and should protect themselves by doing a simple search with the secretary of state's office.

However, as I stated previously, the good faith purchaser does have a cause of action against the unauthorized seller. Depending upon the amount, this could be criminal.

 

[MrMark]

True. That's the way all the deals would be legally unwound: each buyer would recover from his seller after the box was repossessed, either judicially or non-judicially if possible without violence.


Criminal issues would depend heavily of statutory specifics which vary very much from state to state.

I will just add one more thing and that is if you work in a shop where your box is exposed and available for examination you are at risk of repossession if you buy a used newish truck box without doing your homework with the secretary of state. Calling the Snap-on man is worthless and does not in any way protect you.

 

[ptschram]

I will just add one more thing and that is if you work in a shop where your box is exposed and available for examination you are at risk of repossession if you buy a used newish truck box without doing your homework with the secretary of state. Calling the Snap-on man is worthless and does not in any way protect you.

Let's be honest here. No one can simply walk in and say that's mine and walk out with it.

There are lengthy legal steps to follow before one can execute the lien.

I think most of our toolboxes are safe.

 

[MrMark]

Let's be honest here. No one can simply walk in and say that's mine and walk out with it.

There are lengthy legal steps to follow before one can execute the lien.

I think most of our toolboxes are safe.

Not on a non-judicial repossession. There are NO legal steps to be followed other than to confirm that a breach of contract has occurred and that the contract provides for repossession. The UCC section I posted provides plainly for nonjudicial repossession. The police are not involved and the courts are not involved. The issue is whether the repo can be made without a breach of the peace, basically the same issue as with any nonjudicial repo including cars. If the repo cannot be made without a breach of the peace THEN a court order would be needed and obviously a case would need to be filed to get the court order. Not a big deal.

If one works in a large dealership and the Snap-on man comes to repossess are the managers going to throw him out?

 

[ptschram]

Not on a non-judicial repossession. There are NO legal steps to be followed other than to confirm that a breach of contract has occurred and that the contract provides for repossession. The UCC section I posted provides plainly for nonjudicial repossession. The police are not involved and the courts are not involved. The issue is whether the repo can be made without a breach of the peace, basically the same issue as with any nonjudicial repo including cars. If the repo cannot be made without a breach of the peace THEN a court order would be needed and obviously a case would need to be filed to get the court order. Not a big deal.

If one works in a large dealership and the Snap-on man comes to repossess are the managers going to throw him out?

By the time a car has been repossessed, the buyer is well aware of the fact that the car is going to be repossessed.

The steps taken to repossess anything require notice to the holder of the collateral and an opportunity to make the debt good.

To some extent, you are fear-mongering by making it sound as though a Snap-On man can randomly walk up state that one's toolbox has a lien and he's taking it. Especially if it's in possession of a secondary buyer.

I know damn well there would be a breach of the peace if it were to happen to me.

Case in point. I bought a crashed truck. Wrote check, retrieved truck. Check was cashed, title was not forthcoming. Turns out there was a lien for more than I paid for it. I informed lien holder I had bought in good faith and significant repair work had been done to the truck and they could exercise their lien,but my garage-keeper's lien would likely prevail.

I got the title with the lien released, but I had in the meantime, found the seller (who was the guy on the lien) and informed the lienholder of his whereabouts.

What they did, I don't know. I still have the truck

 

[Todd.Brock]

My thoughts are, he knew it was probably stolen, or something ain't right. Last thing you want to do is call SO and say, hey I think I bought your stolen box... If you "stole" it like you did, STFU about it and enjoy your new box for a steal. If you brag about it, be prepared to meet the other side. Sure, getting a lawyer will get you the ability to keep it. I find it ironic that if your buddy wasn't around to talk you out of giving it back, then this post would have read, snappy dealer took my possibly stolen box, What do I do now? Know when to clam up.

 

[warmpancakes]

By the time a car has been repossessed, the buyer is well aware of the fact that the car is going to be repossessed.

The steps taken to repossess anything require notice to the holder of the collateral and an opportunity to make the debt good.

To some extent, you are fear-mongering by making it sound as though a Snap-On man can randomly walk up state that one's toolbox has a lien and he's taking it. Especially if it's in possession of a secondary buyer.

I know damn well there would be a breach of the peace if it were to happen to me.

Case in point. I bought a crashed truck. Wrote check, retrieved truck. Check was cashed, title was not forthcoming. Turns out there was a lien for more than I paid for it. I informed lien holder I had bought in good faith and significant repair work had been done to the truck and they could exercise their lien,but my garage-keeper's lien would likely prevail.

I got the title with the lien released, but I had in the meantime, found the seller (who was the guy on the lien) and informed the lienholder of his whereabouts.

What they did, I don't know. I still have the truck

correct in michigan when I help my buddy repo something car,truck, toolbox he has a court papers allowing the repo. It is against the law to hide things from the repo man

 

[kythri]

Not on a non-judicial repossession. There are NO legal steps to be followed other than to confirm that a breach of contract has occurred and that the contract provides for repossession. The UCC section I posted provides plainly for nonjudicial repossession. The police are not involved and the courts are not involved. The issue is whether the repo can be made without a breach of the peace, basically the same issue as with any nonjudicial repo including cars. If the repo cannot be made without a breach of the peace THEN a court order would be needed and obviously a case would need to be filed to get the court order. Not a big deal.

If one works in a large dealership and the Snap-on man comes to repossess are the managers going to throw him out?

It's pretty easy to breach the peace - "Walk away from my toolbox or I'll beat you into the floor."

Peace breached.

As far as a UCC filing, I've been reading up on Oregon's UCC law, and I'm still not seeing it. I'm not going to assume that Oregon's rules extend to all states, but most states are pretty similar.

I'd really really like to see the language from a sales contract, (or a sample of Oregon filing) to see how something like this gets handled.

I don't see how, without a title that would prevent legal transfer (and formally identify the goods in question), how Party A (the creditor) has any legal standing to go after Party C (the new buyer) after party B (the original purchaser) sells the merchandise. I do see language that would allow Party A to prevent the sale, were they to know about it, but nothing that suggests they have recourse for recovery from Party C once the transfer has been made.

(And, before I get accused of trying to defraud a dealer or buy a stolen box, becuase, as we all know, that's the ONLY possible reason I could have to be interested in this matter, no, I'm not paying on a box, looking to sell a box, actively looking to buy a box, know anyone trying to do so, work for any entity discussed herein, etc. ad nauseum.)

 

[ishiboo]

Not quite true. There is no protection available to a BFP for value unless the security interest has not been perfected. The purchaser is absolutely required to check the UCC database with the secretary of state to ensure that there is no priority interest in the goods.

So, like I posted earlier, as long as SO filed the UCC1 statement with the secretary of state they are protected and take priority against ANY subsequent purchaser. It doesn't matter that the subsequent purchaser had no actual knowledge of the lien. The law gives them constructive knowledge of the security interest by virtue of the UCC filing of record.

The security holder can repossess (another right created by contract and sanctioned by the UCC) against any subsequent purchaser so long as it can be
done without a breach of the peace.

Had to look this up, but you're right. The UCC exclusion only applies if the purchase was made from a company "in the business of selling goods of that kind". In addition, US code covers the purchase of casual goods from a person under $1,000.

 

[4x4gearhead]

I would install an eye bolt through the bottom of the box, and chain it in place in the shop.
It'd **** to come in one day and find out that the dealer told the boss he was repossessing your box due to whatever reason, and there you sit with no box, no tools and no recourse.

I believe there have been posts on this site about guys getting their box repossessed with everything in it.

-Brad

I have heard of this and dont understand how its legal...The parts manager where I work used to be a Matco dealer and he claims to have gone in and just grabbed peoples toolboxes full of everything and putting the box right onto his liftgate. He claims it was more incentive to the customer to make right on the deal. Personally I think he is a scoundrel. He told me he once reposessed a box full of tools and kept it over $250 the dude still owed on the $4000 loan. He is probably just blowing smoke up my *** but if this were happening to me (which it wouldnt I am known with the tool trucks as being a great customer.) I would be at that MFers house beating his ******* door down because thats my livelyhood.