Multi-use building- how many systems is best for me?

[bams50]

Early planning stages here, so I'm just trying to get a rough idea on theory:

Building- pole building 50'x120'x18' ceiling height.

Three sections- 50x50 auto resto workshop
25x50 showroom/display area
25x50 apartment with 2nd floor finished

I want to adjust the three sections separately. Naturally, the living area will on average be warmer. The other two sections I would like to adjust down when not in use. If health concerns dictate (i.e. long stretch of inactivity), I might sometimes have the apartment warm, showroom less so, shop just above freezing. Other times, apt. and shop warmer, center not as much.

I am going with in-floor heat, LP gas (no nat. available). I figure the separate zones will allow the most savings. My goal with this build is to never be cold indoors again; although I don't need it hot by any means. We use heat for about 5-6 months here, normally about 10 sub-zero days, 10-15 single digit. I'm trying to allow the most flexibility for the purpose of fuel savings.

Would I want one boiler with three zones; or two boilers, one for the apt. and one for the rest; or three separate systems?

My thought is I don't mind spending a little more now on system to cut utility costs long-term. This will be our retirement home.

Final question- the second floor of the apartment require its own loop to be warm, right? It will be a gameroom/theater room plus guest room/bath. Would that be a fourth zone? Ideally, it could be shut off when not in use, just heating the downstairs.

What do you think?

 

[bams50]

Dang, no input from the brains in this field?? Must be my idea is so brilliant and unique no one has ever experienced or even considered anything like this before?

Sure would like some input from the experienced in the field. I was thrilled to find this forum thinking it was just what I needed to get help in assuring my once-in-a-lifetime dream build is as well-planned as possible. I promise, any info shared will be well considered and appreciated, always!

Hopefully Badger and the other sharpies in the field will see this and comment...

 

[Ron Lombardo]

I would install 3 heat pump systems and use the LP for auxiliary heat ... the heat pumps wil have condensing units for AC and produce heat in the winter .... your near me in NY so your going to need a heat back up in the real cold winter months.

Ron

 

[bams50]

Thanks for your reply, Ron. I have heard the term 'heat pump' but don't really know what that is, or how it would apply to my situation. I'll have to do more research. And I'm still hoping others in the know will offer advice to help with my planning...

 

[cj7365]

Not sure which cost more in NY, propane or electricity, where I am at, propane is at $2.90 a gal so when I built my house a yr ago I went with a heat pump, which means its electric, it works as the same pricipal as an A/C but opposite, when it gets too cold I have electric as back up instead of propane


electric price here in New Mexico is .1079 a kilowat


Im sure others will chime in

 

[minibugger]

If heating by boiler, I would think that a single boiler with multiple zones would work. The three or four different heat level requirements could be established with individual mixing valve per zone. This would set the approximate temperature for each zone and the zone valve and thermostat for each zone would still be the on and off operator for each particular zone. Maybe this is old school and to costly to run?. Been a while since I was in the trade, and technology continues to change. If you happen across a plumbing wholesaler, try getting a quote and proposed layout drawing or possible suggestions?

 

[bams50]

Yes, my plan is definitely to get a consultation from a professional, maybe a couple. I posted this for two reasons: One, to hopefully tap into a wide number of folks' experience in this area, giving me a baseline of education and Two, in the past I have had luck finding a vendor or business that can do a given project from a forum discussion; for example, this forum is where I learned about Race Deck, my flooring choice.

That's not to say I just go with whatever I read on an internet site, but when a business takes the time to chime in, that makes me be sure to give them a good chance at ultimately getting my business. Any business will respond to a direct query, but one that will have a public discussion can benefit all readers.

Thanks again for responses.

 

[larry_g]

I am just theorizing here as I have no professional status in this area. I have radiant in two shops so a little experience. One thing that jumps out at me is the game/room guest room. This room as you state will probably be used on impulse and need a rapid rise heat system so I would question if radiant would work there for your stated use. In my old shop I had to turn the heat on Thursday night if I expected to work out there on the weekend. Lag time is something to think about. That big of a building do you ever foresee someone else using the shop that should pay the bill separately from the other user? That might factor in to decisions on facilities.

I sure wish I had your problem.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Full Throttle]

Do you need a/c in shop?

I would do Hydronic floor heat in shop, I would do a Hydronic heat A/h with a/c coil each in show room and apartment with heat pumps. Trane makes airhandlers with hydronic auxilery instead of electric. this allows you to have 1- boiler, 3- zones, as well as heat pump for mild temps and a/c for when you need it.

I would also add a couple radiant panel heaters 40-50KBTU in work shop for that quick warmup as they will heat the objects no air. You could just plan for this and add later.

 

[bams50]

I am just theorizing here as I have no professional status in this area. I have radiant in two shops so a little experience. One thing that jumps out at me is the game/room guest room. This room as you state will probably be used on impulse and need a rapid rise heat system so I would question if radiant would work there for your stated use. In my old shop I had to turn the heat on Thursday night if I expected to work out there on the weekend. Lag time is something to think about. That big of a building do you ever foresee someone else using the shop that should pay the bill separately from the other user? That might factor in to decisions on facilities.

I sure wish I had your problem.

Good thoughts here. I do need to think more about lag time.

The game/guest room will actually be a second floor above the apartment. I'm thinking this will stay partially warm due to the heated apartment below; and the BTU requirement to get it to termperature shouldn't be too much. Still, it's worth more thought.

Funny you mention others using the shop. I'm trying to think long term; as in, suppose for some reason I become unable to work in the shop, I might, under the right circumstances, lease that out. Or, in theory, I could just stop using it or just use it for storage, in which case I'd want to shut the heat off totally, or close to it; while maintaining warmer temps in the rest.

Ultimately I'm trying to think through all the possibilities before making any final design decisions; or writing my budget. As we all know, the best time to make changes is BEFORE the first shovel goes in... or especially, the first yard of concrete

Thanks for your help!

 

[bams50]

Do you need a/c in shop?

I would do Hydronic floor heat in shop, I would do a Hydronic heat A/h with a/c coil each in show room and apartment with heat pumps. Trane makes airhandlers with hydronic auxilery instead of electric. this allows you to have 1- boiler, 3- zones, as well as heat pump for mild temps and a/c for when you need it.

I would also add a couple radiant panel heaters 40-50KBTU in work shop for that quick warmup as they will heat the objects no air. You could just plan for this and add later.

Hydronic, airhandler, heat pump... I definitely need to do more learning. I don't know those terms, and how they might fit my situation.

A common theme in the replies here is mentioning the possibility of alternate heat sources. I was hoping by spending the money up front for in-floor heat would give me the most practical/effective heating system there is. Is it common to need other sources with this type of system?

 

[Ron Lombardo]

The reason for my suggestion is the " MULTI USE BLDG" statement

Three sections- 50x50 auto resto workshop
25x50 showroom/display area
25x50 apartment with 2nd floor finished

The resto work shop radiant would work the best with a small instantaneous boiler fired on propane ..because or the availability propane vs electric per BTU propane would be the way to go ... IF you don't need Air Conditioning ... keep in mind there are times where a shop can get very Humid and a touch of AC would take the edge off ..so my initial recommendation would be a heat pump if you want AC.

But hands down I would suggest in the showroom and apartment your going to want HEAT and AC ...heat pumps are the most cost effective and best solution ...with back up heat.... here propane or worst case electric heat backup ...they are main source of power for the compressor and blower and Condenser is electric.

Also separate systems would be the best choice for a few reasons, you can mix the shop with either the apartment and or the showroom because of the fumes ... dont even recommend mixing the showroom with the shop ... 3 systems because of fumes and dirt is the best choice.

My 2 cents.

 

[bams50]

Oops, I totally spaced on the A/C questions

For the shop I had intended a 'Big-***' fan http://www.bigassfans.com/ . In the past I've had very good luck with ceiling fans in the shop. This company can make extra-large blade spans and claim they run for about $1 per week. We don't get a lot of severely hot weather here, and it would only be a question for really about 4-5 months; so I don't see a need for A/C in the shop.

Now, the showroom might or might not need A/C. I pictured another BA fan in there, and again because of the climate I don't think there will be much need.

Even in the apt. there will be little need for A/C with a room above it, but I will surely want some. But it won't need to be very powerful. The upstairs, yes, I'll need some small A/C, but I'm starting with a cathedral ceiling with opening skylights, plus opening windows throughout.

Suffice to say, where I am I find cooling to be a much smaller issue than heating comfort and cost, and that's where my focus has been. But now I can see I need more thinking. Even if I can't fit A/C into my initial budget, as Full Throttle said, it's best to plan for it and add later if necessary.

 

[bams50]

Forgot to mention- Between the shop and the showroom I plan on two walls, 5-10 feet apart. Both walls will be insulated and fireproofed to act as a buffer between the shop and the rest of the building. Between the walls will be storage shelving. Also, I will have a "dirty area" for sanding and painting, with an exhaust fan to the outside.

This is a little OT, just some more of my plan

 

[Full Throttle]

Hydronic, airhandler, heat pump... I definitely need to do more learning. I don't know those terms, and how they might fit my situation.

A common theme in the replies here is mentioning the possibility of alternate heat sources. I was hoping by spending the money up front for in-floor heat would give me the most practical/effective heating system there is. Is it common to need other sources with this type of system?

hydronic heat via a boiler, is heated water, pumped through floor, through coils and warm air then blown into area, and can also handle the domestic hot water needs

airhandler, is the indoor unit that moves air is attached to ductwork and can contain a refrigerant coil for a/c and heatpump (reverse refrigeration to make heat) and you can get them with a hydronic coil ( to use heated water for heat like a care radiator)

You have an open canvas, I would talk to atleast 2-3 HVAC/ Plumbing contractors in your area for their ideas.

here is a web site you can ask away on as well, stricktly HVAC proffesionals only answering questions.

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/index.php

 

[bams50]

You have an open canvas, I would talk to at least 2-3 HVAC/ Plumbing contractors in your area for their ideas.

That's a good way to think of this. I bet somebody like Radiantec would be happy to work with me on it.

 

[bams50]

Well, I think I've ruled out heat pumps. They seem counterintuitive for a mostly colder climate like mine, right?