Rotary in ground SmartLift vs Traditional 2 post lift?

[AbitNutz]

I didn't realize they still made in-ground lifts but it seems both Rotary and Mantowac make full-hydraulic compact, dual post in ground lifts.

Are there any advantages to these over the top end Mohawk's and Rotary's? They're clearly more expensive but I just can't imagine one failing in anyway. Do they give more working room? Or are they just left over from a previous generation of lifts.

I'm not sure if anyone else even makes this type of lift anymore but they sure look cool. Have they been passed by two post lifts?

Just curious if anyone knows about these.

 

[MustangRick]

I have been looking at the inground from Rotary and Challenger. I am years away from purchasing so I haven't done a ton of research or contacted any lift suppliers. It appears that the ingrounds are about twice the price of a normal 2 post lift. If I were to install a lift into a small 2 car garage, I would probably buy an inground and center it.

 

[ConCretin]

I'll be installing an in-ground Rotary Smartlift in my new garage. The new lifts are thoroughly modern versions and are far more environmentally friendly than their antique counterparts i.e. they are self contained and not likely to leak into the soil.

they are more expensive but offer a couple advantages. Firstly, there are no posts to work around. The second advantage in my case is that the lift won't conflict with my overhead gantry.

Probably not worth the extra expense for most but in my case it's an easy choice.

 

[RonB]

these lifts use a hydraulic cylinder that is activated with air pressure.To contain leaks a corragated plastic type cylinder is used to contain any leakage.Usually have one seal assy at top of the cylinder.This type of lift is made to last for many years ,the seal at the top being the only wear item.

 

[Diddly]

We had them in a new dealership that I worked in for a few months this year. I as well as most of the guys hated them. It was very hard to judge you path and alignment onto it ( ours were set at 90 degrees to the drive in isleway) the pads that you drive over are quite tall and abrupt making it difficult to climb over with wet/snowy tires, also low cars are a concern here. I would personally far sooner have an as symmetrical two post. And this was a ford dealer, forget about any cab off work as the posts are inboard of the frame rail.

 

[ScaldedDog]

Though my garage is a little deeper than a typical three-car, is isn't any wider, so I decided on a Rotary SmartLift to get around having posts. I love it.

That's my neighbor's Testarossa on it, and all we needed was some 1" boards to get it on the lift, and mine is set a little further out of the ground than necessary. Low vehicles are a non-issue. Heavy ones aren't either, as the Excursion in the background has spent a lot of time in the air. [sigh]

Also, only the locks are air actuated, the lift rises on hydraulic pressure created by a pump on the wall. The reservoir is connected to the pump, so there is minimal fluid pumped into the lift, and any spills would be contained in the conduit leading to the lift, or the large fiberglass cassette into which the lift fits. You can see the cassette and conduit in the photos below.

Other than cost, the only downside is that you have to step over the arms getting in and out of a vehicle parked on it. In my case the vehicle is rarely driven, so it's a non-issue.

Mark

 

[Todd.Brock]

Cool pic!

 

[Neuswede]

I went with the Rotary for my build. I looked at both Challenger and Rotary, and the major problem was actually getting anyone to return a telephone call. Rotary and Challenger deal only through their distributors, so they will help you with info but no pricing. I found an excellent guy in Delaware who actually could return phone calls promptly and did the deal with him, instead of the idiots that were closer to me but had no interest in making the sale.

Having used traditional 2 post lifts in the past, the Smart Lift takes much less room and in a small shop, that can be very important. Yes, you have to step out over the arms when exiting a car, but contrast that to wiggling out from a two-post. If you have both trucks and cars, the Smart Lift is the choice; trucks should not be used on an asymmetrical due to the weight distribution. The only negative I accepted was that with the lift up, you can't park a car one under the other as you can with a traditional two post design. Otherwise, I found no negatives to choosing the Smart Lift over a traditional 2 post.

 

[2chipped]

When I was 18 I worked at a shop with an inground single tube lift.

For front wheel drive it worked great....but r/r clutches,and transmission /engine changes on rwd were brutal.

Just asking about real world repair(not just lite repairs).
I understand the space constraints of a small garage but,dodging those columns would be nerve racking for 50% of the vehicles on the road imo.

 

[AbitNutz]

I can see where a single tube would be a real pain but these are two posts. It's really difficult to judge which give more access to the car, the traditional asymmetrical dual post lift or the dual post in ground.

It would seem that the in ground 2 post lifts are really stable and pretty much impossible to shake loose. Between the two styles it looks like the in ground would be a bit more bullet proof.

 

[ScaldedDog]

Hopefully the second two photos in my post above are visible now. Let me know if they aren't.

As far as the posts getting in the way - they don't on a two-post in-ground. They are directly below the plane of the wheels on most vehicles, and the arms reach in to connect to the frame or unibody lift points. On everything from a Honda Accord to that Excursion, I have complete access to the driveline. I use vertical extensions on frame-based vehicles to keep the arms off the rocker panels, and that has the effect of giving additional access to things like frame-mounted fuel pumps that can end up right above the posts

The other downside I forgot to mention, but someone else did earlier in the thread, is that an in-ground lift isn't much good for raising cabs like you have to on newer Superdutys. You could rig up a way to raise it a foot or so, but that's barely enough to be useful.

As you can tell, I'm a fan of these things. They are relatively expensive, and they do require a big honking hole in the ground that make them difficult to add to existing construction, but they are great work lifts.

Mark

 

[amarcello]

The other downside I forgot to mention, but someone else did earlier in the thread, is that an in-ground lift isn't much good for raising cabs like you have to on newer Superdutys. You could rig up a way to raise it a foot or so, but that's barely enough to be useful.


Could you explain what you mean here. Are you saying you would not be able to lift a superduty truck?

 

[TooManyToys53]

For thirty years we lived with both a single and twin post lift in our test facility. The only time we had issues about the single post was if we needed access to the center of the car, but 99% of our work was at the wheel ends. But we also had portable posts to hold up a vehicle if we really needed to gain access.

Getting balanced over the lift takes a little training. We painted a line on the floor x inches away from the center of the lift which was just outside the typical tire track with a 90 degree line off of it where we believed most front wheels should be. After a while you learn how to guide a vehicle so most of the fiddling is eliminated.

We also had an advantage as we kept using the lift with the same vehicles we had in our fleet. With that situation we were able to place a length of tape on the bottom door sill that corresponded to another guide line on the floor so it was easier to know exactly how far forward to move the vehicle. Both of these units were air over oil.

At our west coast site we had two twin post above ground lifts. The guys that used those lifts all the time preferred those, while the east coast guys that would go out there preferred the in ground lifts rather then bouncing into the posts and arms. It seemed it was more of liking what you were used to.

 

[geotek]

I agree, i'm completly comfortable using a two post system, but remember when I first started working on one i was very unsure about it. My biggest complaint was that you had to be carfull with the doors opening or you might ding one. With wide cars/truck you just have to be aware of your surroundings.

 

[TooManyToys53]

The other downside I forgot to mention, but someone else did earlier in the thread, is that an in-ground lift isn't much good for raising cabs like you have to on newer Superdutys. You could rig up a way to raise it a foot or so, but that's barely enough to be useful.


Could you explain what you mean here. Are you saying you would not be able to lift a superduty truck?

It's not about picking up the truck itself. It's been proven by techs when doing major engine work on the Superdutys it's just easier and quicker to disconnect all the wiring and line connections, unbolt the body and lift the body off the frame so you can work around the motor. With all the diesel motor problems since the 6.0L introduction (I have one) and the subsequent versions as well, Ford guys have gotten good at this.

The easiest way is to bring the above ground lift arms under the main cab and just lift only the cab. With the in-ground lift there has been a work-around though, lifting the entire vehicle up once everything is disconnect, remove the body bolts, then use a full height stand to keep the body in the air while you lower the frame assembly back to ground level. Some people are more nervous about this, not keeping the body on a lift.

But I have worked running tests on metro buses where the bus garage uses those style stands to hold up an entire bus while we worked under them.

 

[amarcello]

Great. Thanks so much for the info. Where can I get those type of stands? Any links to quality ones on the net?

 

[ScaldedDog]

That is a great idea. I use HF stands like this one, though I've never tried to support a truck cab with them. I have three of them, but would need a fourth do hold up a cab.



Mark

 

[amarcello]

Hi.
Great pics of your lift. I am about to get one ( rotary or challenger). Not sure yet. How long have you had yours? Any issues? I saw one that was for sale on here, ( 2006 out of dealership). You may have seen it. The frame was extremely rusty and it kind of freaked me out to spend that much and end up with that. However, they probably washed the floor a lot and did not take care of it. Mine would never see washed floors or water entering from above Do you ever get water or excess moisture in yours? How's maintenance? Any repairs? Do you feel safe underneath working on it? I'm about to drop a chuck on a new one. I'm hoping this will last me 15-20 yrs if I properly maintain it. Any and all input would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

[ScaldedDog]

I've had my Rotary operational for three years, though it's been in the ground about three and a half. I've had zero issues with it, and the only maintenance I've done is greasing the zerks once or twice a year. I lift the 8000# Excursion in the background of the photo with it, and do feel safe underneath it, even though I'm careful to a fault by nature. I do use the tall jackstands I linked above, particularly when working under the Excursion, or if doing anything that might move or change the weight distribution of the any lifted vehicle.

I had mine placed about a half inch above the floor, with a one foot slope from the edge of the lift down to the flat floor surface. I've removed the cover a time or two to see if there was any moisture in the bottom, and haven't seen a drop. I'm sure I'm more careful about that than a shop would be, but probably no more so than the rest of the OCD folks on here. There's no way water can enter any other way than through the top, as the casing you see being dropped in the hole is a single piece of fiberglass.

IMHO, these are great work lifts for any vehicle from sports cars to one-ton trucks. You can't park under them, will have to use the workaround mentioned above if you want to raise the body on some modern trucks (e.g. 2008 and later Ford Superduty), and they are more expensive than a two-post. Still, if you know how you'll use it and it fits your needs, they are hard to beat.

Mark

 

[MaxxDog]

COmpared to scissor lift?

I'm considering a lift for a not too distant new garage project. Are scissor lifts something to consider here? I like the fact they can be completely flush with the floor when not in use.

Any major pros/cons compared to the systems described here?

Thanks

 

[amarcello]

Thanks Mark. I appreciate the quick response. I may have to pick your brain a bit more it the near future..

 

[amarcello]

I did a lot of research on the scissor lifts. I finally went against it since for the same price you can get the in ground. The only true downside I struggled with is if you have to work on a narrow frame vehicle you need to use cross braces to catch the lifting points. These can be a pain if you need to remove exhausts, trans work or other center line components. I think its a great option particularly if you lift uni body vehicles. However, when it comes to frames it can be a problem. They are a great option because you can flush mount them and the are gone when not using them. If you need more info let me know. Like I said I have done all the research and know what is available
( NON China ****) and or sorts of links.
Al

 

[Aahz]

My company has installed literally HUNDREDS of the two-post Rotary inground lifts at dealerships and independent repair facilities here in Chicago. (We've installed a few Challengers as well, but that story doesn't end well).

When I'm selling the inground vs. surface mount concept to a dealership, I focus on two distinct points:
1.) You can get more service bays in the same amount of space (increased revenue)
2.) NADA did a time study analysis a number of years ago that showed inground lifts generated almost 75% more income per bay that surface mount lifts, mostly due to higher productivity by the technician.

Top it off with how much cleaner a shop looks without a "forest" of columns and most of the time, the owner will pony up for the inground lift.

It will be interesting to see how the new "Shockwave" lift changes the productivity numbers over the next few years.

I noticed that someone was comparing Manitowac inground with Rotary & Challenger ingrounds up above. Please keep in mind that Manitowac and "Globe" lifts do still sell the old design of hydraulics that require about 50 gallons of oil to operate and 175 psi of air pressure. The newer designs (Rotary & Challenger) use about 5-gallons of ATF and 220 volt 20 amp 1 phase power to do the same thing. The old hydraulics are 8,000 lbs. capacity, the new styles are either 10K or 12K capacity, depending on the model.

If you have questions about them or want a quote on the Rotary's, please give me a call.

 

[MaxxDog]

Frank/AL,

Thanks for the comments.
I've been reading this forum for over a year and finally signed out. Great information here and great spirit amongst its members.

I'm a weekend wrencher, part-time at best. I have an older bug and 911. I'm not sure if those are considered narrow bodied for the in-ground? Weight-wise both are light cars but I do have a 1-ton diesel pick-up which I'd like to be able to get under as necessary. So the lift needs to handle both sets of vehicles.

With that said, the lift most of the time would be down and out of use; therefore, the attraction to the scissor lift. However, I'm a big believer in form follows function. I simply don't have any experience with lifts other than jacks and stands. It sure would be nice to lift the car up easily.

So some more questions -

1) Can the smartlift be installed in such a way where it sits lower in the ground with its arms at or below floor level in a storage position (with a cover for example) and raised as needed when in use?

2) I saw a comment elswhere that a lift in the garage depreciates home value. Has anyone actually experienced that?

Thanks,
Martin

 

[amarcello]

Martin,
Question 1:

I am toying with the idea of doing exactly what you would like to do with the rotary. It can be done. I'm designing a foundation to POSSIBLY do so ( I'm an engineer). However, You must realize a few things in doing so. You will lose inches of lift height because the arms will be below the surface by the finished floor by the height of the arms ( I believe 5-6 inches). You would also need a cover in the middle of the posts and sides because of the depression. You would have to make SURE that you place the arms in the folded position to completely lower the lift into the depression or you risk damaging the lift. If you are pouring a new floor the design would work easier than if you are tying it to an existing floor. Reason: Because most existing floors are 4-6 thick. Your trying to tie in the lift 5-6 inched below the surface, but now you face just dirt to tie into. This requires digging up the area of the lift and re pouring to a deeper depth and tieing THAT first into the existing floor. Therefore, a non existing floor would make this much easier. One pour versus two. Is it worth all this? Depends on the amount of work/money you want to spend. I may omit this idea because I do not want to lose Lift height.

Question 2: I have not heard any any such thing. However, I have heard in ground pools do. It's a safety hazard and cost of maintaining it. As far as a lift, I would say it depends on who's buying. If I saw a house I wanted for sale and it had a lift already I'd be happy as a clam. Others not so happy.

FYI:

Most scissor lifts have a 32" clearance between their platforms roughly placing the center of each platform from each other at 56". Trucks and framed vehicles ( non uni-body) would place their frames well within the center (closer to the inner edge of each platform) causing a indirect lift to the platforms and a major safety issue. This is why they sell the cross braces with slide adjusters (to catch the frame locations) to spread the load evenly across the platforms. Again, now you face an unclear access under the vehicle. Check out this link to see a Rotary scissor lift in action. This one is NOT available in the US. Only in Europe . There are others that I could give you info on.

Hope this helps.

 

[ScaldedDog]

With respect to the resell issue, a Smartlift is essentially removable. You could actually sell the lift, and have nothing but a plate where the lift used to be.

EDIT: I just realized who Frank is. He knows these things. Frank, is the containment sold separately, for those who want to plan for a SmartLift, but don't want to buy it yet? A photo of that would show what the floor looks like with the lift removed.

Mark

 

[ScaldedDog]

Thanks Mark. I appreciate the quick response. I may have to pick your brain a bit more it the near future..

Any time. Where are you, BTW?

Mark

 

[Aahz]

With respect to the resell issue, a Smartlift is essentially removable. You could actually sell the lift, and have nothing but a plate where the lift used to be.

EDIT: I just realized who Frank is. He knows these things. Frank, is the containment sold separately, for those who want to plan for a SmartLift, but don't want to buy it yet? A photo of that would show what the floor looks like with the lift removed.

Mark

Scalded...I appreciate being recognized...now if I just knew who YOU were...LOL
You are correct, though, in that you can buy it several different ways:

"Future Kit" is when you purchase the box and a cover plate and plan on installing the "guts" and superstructure somewhere down the line.
Buy a "base unit" which will give you the box and the power unit, but no superstructure. You buy the super when you are ready to finish the job.

Buy the whole lift at once is the last way to buy it and that's the way I recommend it, if you can afford it. That's the only way to insure you get the complete lift and the distributor doesn't forget to order you the right parts when you need them. (Been there, done that!) Unfortunately, the lead times on these lifts run 6-8 weeks whether it's a whole lift or a partial, so you theoretically could end up with a lift in the ground and wait 6 weeks for the parts to finish it, if you try to order piecemeal!

 

[amarcello]

I'm in Rhode Island. You know the smallest state with the biggest name. Biggest corruption too.

 

[MaxxDog]

Thanks for the video.

Fair point on the resell issue. Someone wrote elsewhere depreciation hit.

I'm looking at a new build so a custom fit shouldn't be a problem. I'm surprised the arm height is 5-6". Is that correct? Are the tops that high from the finished floor?

So looking at that scissor lift - what's the disadvantage? It's 76" height, platforms are under body rails and driveline looks exposed. I'm trying to understand what the fundamental differences are. This lift does have a max load of ~7700lbs, not sure I'd want to put my truck on it at 7100 lbs though. Where does the narrow body issue come in or how narrow does the body have to be to become an issue?

 

[amarcello]

The car on the lift is a uni-body. You would have issues with all vehicles that utilize a frame all trucks, truck based SUV's. If you look at the vehicle on the lift the pick up points are along the body seam mostly in line with the wheels. Frames on trucks and such are closer to the center line of the body and away from the wheel center line. You must pick up these vehicles with cross braces to lift safely. I would not pick up a truck with a 7000lb CAP lift scissor lift. I do know of a Italian scissor lift rated at 9000lb. Company Werther International out of Texas. If your interested I have a POC. It's CE certified in Europe. That is also a consideration you need to be sure of when buying a lift. Make sure it is third party certified. Either ALI or TUF Nord. You are already spending good money on a lift so DO NOT try and pinch pennies. DO NOT buy any China junk. I know ALOT of these are china, but go with a reputable company because they have strict guidelines within their builds ( Steel Quality) and a reputation to uphold. Rotary, Challenger, Forward, Bendpak, MAHA, John Bean, Mohawk. Lift quality goes beyond the rated CAP. Steel quality...etc. You could stand under a cheap Chinese lift, but you are taking one hell of a chance with your life. My motto is " keep China junk in China". Lead paint in toys, etc. It doesn't stop there...believe me

 

[9C1]

At the Community College where I instruct we have 5 in-ground Rotary two-post Smart lifts. They work fine and get abused regularly by the students.

These are replacements for older in-ground Rotaries where the front post was fixed and the rear post slid fore and aft on rails. I liked those a lot for body on frame RWD vehicles, but those are almost non-existent any more (except in my personal fleet).

When those old dinosaurs were replaced with these containment lifts the installers didn't pay sufficient attention to the depth of the install and as a result the pivot arms of four of the lifts are too high for my 2008 Corvette. Since most students don't have such low clearance vehicles it is only a problem for me and for the times when I want to demonstrate a particular feature to them. If you own a low clearance vehicle or think you might some day own one be sure the installers pay attention to the swing arm height. In fairness I should point out that those old lifts would never work on the Corvette; so the swing arm clearance is a minor annoyance.
Terry

 

[TooManyToys53]

Great. Thanks so much for the info. Where can I get those type of stands? Any links to quality ones on the net?

The one I posted is supplied by the same company that had supplied the movable lifts that I've worked with in the metro bus garages or other heavy vehicle sites.

http://www.sefac.com/accessories.php

 

[Budice69]

Interesting forum story on inground scissor lifts in Kentucky

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37192&page=2

 

[bman21603]

I realize this is an old post, but I had to put my 2cents in. The dealer I used to work for installed 15 inground 2 post rotary lifts about 8 years ago in Hershey PA. Long term-we hate them. They seemed nice at first, lots of room to work around but now they are nothing but problems, cars bounce going up and down, water from washing the floor fills the plastic tubs and stinks, fixing them is almost impossible unless you call someone. The plates on the floors are annoying when moving trans jacks, they dont work well for vehicles that have spread out lift points, air locks malfunction, I could go on and on. We are now slowly replacing them with standard rotary above ground spoA10's again. Ingrounds were the biggest most expensive mistake we ever made.

 

[smportis]

So, maintenance issues long term are an issue, and one cannot use the rotary lift for a body-on-frame vehicle (like an old Toyota Landcruiser) with a Rotary In Ground lift. Is this a correct summary?

 

[ScaldedDog]

No. See post #6 in this thread. That body on frame Excursion has spent a lot of time on my SmartLift.

Mine's been flawless in 5+ years of home use.

Mark

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

 

[Aahz]

Bman...the dealer you worked for may have ended up with the Rotary SL29 vs the SL210 lifts. The early generation of the electric / hydraulic inground lifts were a disaster, no other way to put it. Any cylinder issue would take 8 hours of work to fix, electrolysis from dis-similar metals, water was a constant headache, etc. The newer versions of the lifts (SL210 versions) resolved the vast majority of those issues and have been very successful. Rotary has actually been working with dealers that bought the SL29's to get them fixed at close to cost.
One of the keys is to install a new lift approx. 1/4" higher than the finished concrete, to solve the water issues. If the lift is set 1/4" high and then the concrete is poured, the weight of the concrete should drag the lift down to about 1/8" AFF, if done correctly. That gives enough room for the arms to swing freely and just high enough to keep the water at bay.
In regards to maintenance, if they are greased regularly, there shouldn't be any bouncing or other issues.
Challenger's competitive lift is closer to the original SL29 that gave Rotary so many troubles. They also have a lift call the "Aqua-Lift" that uses water and air in lieu of hydraulic oil. We've seen mixed reactions to that product in the market. To get the advertised 10,000 lbs capacity, they need 250 psi of air pressure. That requires a pressure lubed air compressor in lieu of a splash lube. If they run it at 175 psi, the best capacity they will get is 8,000 pounds.

 

[smportis]

No. See post #6 in this thread. That body on frame Excursion has spent a lot of time on my SmartLift.

Mine's been flawless in 5+ years of home use.

Mark

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

Ok, so thinking about this as a viable option. Thanks Mark for that clarification. Do you have any photos of this in the down position - I'd like to see what you mean by having to step over the arms.

If you had to remove the drive shafts or transfer/******, would you be able to do that from below without the lift getting in the way?

Currently, my Toyota Landcruiser is in that state of teardown. The Engine/******/Transfer will be re-installed from above with a shop crane, but getting T/T out was done from below (on the ground unfortunately).

And what is the diff in the "FA", "RA", and "TA" models? I'm not seeing it from the website.

(Website: http://www.rotarylift.com/light_inground_smart.aspx?id=456)

Scott

 

[ScaldedDog]

Sure. This first photo shows the arms down, and folded under my 4Runner. The top of the large section of the arm is 5" above the center plate of the lift. My lift is 1" above the floor, so the top of the arm is 6" above it. Having the arms folded under a vehicle that lives its life as a garage ornament [sigh] is really handy.

If your daily driver is parked above the lift, you'll keep the arms extended, and they'll run along the side of the vehicle. I didn't extend them, but you can see in the next photo what they might look like next to a mid-size sedan. It probably wouldn't be a big deal if it was your daily driver, but your wife may be less pleased.

As far as access to the underside of the vehicle goes, that's the strong suit of these things. No posts, no restrictions. This is from under my 4Runner:

I wanted to lift both cars (like the Ferrari toward the top of the thread) and trucks, so I bought the -RA model that has 3-stage arms and pads for unibody vehicles. I also bought the Rotary truck kit that comes with 4 3" extensions, 4 6" extensions (that are stackable with the 3" ones) and frame pads. That means the frame rails of the lifted vehicle are 10" above the lift arm, so you can get to anything there, like this:

Oh, one last thing: With the truck kit, you can raise the vehicle really high. The photo below shows my 4Runner sitting on the top stop of the lift. The center of the front axle tube is 5'10" tall, and is at the top of my head. I can barely reach the top of the license plate. In five years of working on vehicles, I don't think I've ever had to do any work that required the vehicle to be this high. Also, the center of my ceiling is 12'6", and the walls are 8'6". With no posts to worry about, this is plenty tall, and I've never touched the ceiling with anything other than a 4' radio antenna.

As you can tell, I'm a fan of these things when used as work lifts.

Mark