My new shop, your ideas wanted...

[greenbank]

I hope this is the right section for this thread. I'm sure someone will let me know if it isn't.

For five years we've lived in rentals with either no garage or damp carports. I've had no workshop and have stashed my cars and bikes all over the place.

That's been rectified. The shop on the property we bought isn't the design I would have built, perhaps, but it's more than fine and I feel fortunate. I'm going to include far too many diagrams below.

It's a metal pole building, 36 ' x 48', set up as a four-car garage with 36' deep stalls. For the small cars I enjoy tinkering with, this means I can double them into each stall. The building is divided into two 24' x 36' spaces. I am planning on using one side for car storage and the other as my workshop, with the current project and probably my usual "daily" car on that side.

I hope to eventually add a carport to the side with the windows as storage for my old truck and car trailer, but there is the mother of all stumps to get rid of first, and it's not top priority at the moment.

I'll ask my questions below the images. I have a couple of practical questions and would also solicit feedback on how you personally might set up your workspace in the workshop side. I can't promise to use your ideas but it's always nice to hear how others would do things.

We just moved, so the building is currently holding cars on the shop side and endless cardboard and junk ("why did we move this? And this? And this? A dumpster would have been a better idea."). The one day the shop was empty I was so rushed I only grabbed a couple of crappy snaps.

Outside (well, duh!).

Inside, this is looking at the "shop" side. It shows the batting and a bit of the truss and cross-ties. The center wall is load bearing.

Now for some sketchup renderings. Below these is the floor plan.

Here is the actual vertical layout including the trusses and ties:

A hoist will fit, where to put it is undecided:

Finally, here's the floor plan:

There is a wood stove in there now, but, frankly, I hate wood stoves for shop heat. Everything I own leaks gasoline at one time or another, and we frequently have burn bans here, not to mention it takes up a lot of floor space and I find that there is generally a 10' radius around the stove where doing any sort of work is unbearable. Plus it is definitely not to code. So it's coming out.

Practical questions:

1. On the shop side of the building, I plan on insulating and drywalling. Furring out the walls and putting in batt insulation is a no brainer. But on the ceiling, I assuming I should leave the fabric batting in place, furr down, and place regular insulation below it...but leave an air gap between the two? Does the roof need to be ventilated, then? A pointer to a good online resource would be great.
   
2. I was planning on leaving the storage side with just the standard batting in place, as I don't plan on heating it...money is a bit tight for this initial "prep the space" project. Is this a mistake? Should I insulate and drywall the entire building?
   
3. The shop's juice comes from the house, and is only 60 amps total. This feels pretty light to me. I was going to see about bringing in a dedicated 200 amp service from the street, which is probably overkill. Realistically, most of the time I will be running a compressor and a parts washer. I don't weld (though it's on my list of things to learn). I do have drill presses, etc. I also want to heat with 220 low-temp ceiling-mounted heaters. It's pretty mild here and I have no problem wearing a sweat shirt. I like 60 degrees as a working temperature.
   
4. Should I plan on air in the walls, or is it best of maintenance to just surface mount it? Obviously, I'll be thinking about and putting additional electrical where warranted. There are lots of outlets but only one 220, not surprising given the amount of juice.

Planning Questions:

1. A hoist will fit. I like two-post hoists. The ties are about 15' apart, so if I center a hoist the type of cars I typically work on fit between them. They're nine feet from the floor, and I'm just over 6', so I typically raise a car about 6 and a half feet of clear space underneath. However, I'd like to be able to service my wife's outback wagon, and ideally my old '68 F250, which is more problematic. I will consult with an engineer to see if I can move the ties slightly further apart on the hoist side.
   
2. I was thinking of putting the compressor on the storage side of the building, right next to the wall dividing the spaces. I can run as much pipe as I want along the wall and back on the other side to give a good 50 to 75' run before it gets to the first machine. I run a bead blast cabinet and hand-held air tools. Doubtful I will be painting, a good friend down the road has a spray booth I can use if he's between projects.
   
3. I would like to keep the ability to park my "often used" old car on the non-hoist side of the shop, being able to move it out if I really need the extra space. But other items I have: Blasting cabinet, parts washer, grinder set up as a buffer, drill press, 20-ton press, toolboxes, flammable storage cabinet. I would also want some shelving on this side to hold some of the pieces of my current project that I'm working on. I would like to eventually consider a lathe. My initial thoughts are to use the wall space, obviously, but to concentrate the big stationary tools at the bathroom end of the shop.

Anyway, I'd love to hear what you think I need to consider, what layout ideas you might have (even in the most general terms) and anything else I should think about. I'll post photos here when we start on the insulation and drywall, hopefully in a couple of weeks.

 

[JC23]

greenbank,

Welcome aboard! You've got yerself some nice bones. I have a few quick ideas to add.

One is to insulate the stoarage side and depending on where you live, it may keep it from freezing during winter. That would also help to heat the working side. You can even defer that job until later to see actually the savings work. And don't forget to insulate that common wall, too.

On your lift, what would happen if you moved that over one bay? I'm thinking you'll likely put all your cabinet tools and storage along a wall so you might as well use the outside one to buffer the heat loss. 'Sides, it's always smart to park 'em against a wall.

Moving that compressor over to the storage side is smart. I would put it right by that inside corner by the man door on the dividing wall. It will cut down on noise and give you more room. And if you keep your lift on the side you indicated, you can use that common wall to run the main air line and split off of that for air machinery. Ditto for the outside wall closest to that man door. And ditto with the 220 line and all that will plug into it.

I see your short 18 foot wall by the bathroom as being your toolbox and bench area. From there, I would lay out the tools/machines in order of useage going away from the bathroom. You could also put a secondary bench along that wall. Storage could be right by the overhead door.

Like I said, just a few things that jumped out to me. You've got a lot of space but still, I wouldn't waste an inch. Have some fun, keep checking in with lotsa photos and keep searching this site for more good intel.

 

[jktruck150]

I would get 6-8 more cars. You have the space now!!! Just kidding. That is great place especially with the dividing wall, which really makes the use of the building very practical. Insulation would be a smart move. How is the lighting? Are there a lot of lights already there and is it enough? Whatever you do, post the pics and updates!

Good luck and nice place!

 

[larry_g]

Your building looks like mine. Are you in the northwest? I made the same mistake of allowing 'stuff' in the building during the move and I am still suffering that mistake two years later. You can see pictures of my 36x48 in the link below.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[greenbank]

I would get 6-8 more cars. You have the space now!!! Just kidding. That is great place especially with the dividing wall, which really makes the use of the building very practical. Insulation would be a smart move. How is the lighting? Are there a lot of lights already there and is it enough? Whatever you do, post the pics and updates!

Jason, my nature is such that I'm inclined to pack the building full of crappy projects "I'll get to eventually," so I'm trying to keep myself from doing just that. I have four cars plus a couple of bikes and a truck, plus a promised additional car plus a moldy project, so I'm going to consider myself "full." (Well, for now.)

There is nowhere near enough light--I like a lot of light and need about twice what's in there. Drywall will help, of course.

 

[greenbank]

One is to insulate the storage side and depending on where you live, it may keep it from freezing during winter. That would also help to heat the working side. You can even defer that job until later to see actually the savings work. And don't forget to insulate that common wall, too.

Actually, the common wall is already finished and I'm 99% confident that it doesn't have insulation. So that may make the decision to finish the entire building easier as it would probably be as much hassle to undo the common wall and redo it as it would be to do the other side.

On your lift, what would happen if you moved that over one bay? I'm thinking you'll likely put all your cabinet tools and storage along a wall so you might as well use the outside one to buffer the heat loss. 'Sides, it's always smart to park 'em against a wall.

I'm in Washington state on an island in Puget Sound, so the climate here is pretty mild. We get one or two genuinely cold weeks per year, and the rest of the winter is rainy and 45 degrees. My thought of putting the hoist on this side was to minimize the "lost" space due to the bath, as in a pinch I could slip two cars into the longer bay if for some reason I had to. Unfortunately with the cross ties I can't put the hoist deep into the space, it has to live pretty much in the center, I think.

I see your short 18 foot wall by the bathroom as being your toolbox and bench area. From there, I would lay out the tools/machines in order of useage going away from the bathroom. You could also put a secondary bench along that wall. Storage could be right by the overhead door.

That's kind of what I was thinking as well. Blasting cabinet right by the common wall, parts washer nearby. If I put the hoist into the outside bay, I can also use bath corner in front of it for some stationary tools.

Sad thing is I also have an entire woodshop's worth of stationary tools but I want this side to be purely auto/metal, and I definitely need the other for car storage. I already need more space!

 

[twokidsnosleep]

It is a really great space, as JC23 wrote "nice bones".
I would kill to have that much room. Keeping the damp out is reason enough for insulation and heat, otherwise rust prevails.
If you need some woodworking machines taken off your hands, I could help with that

 

[mr48chev]

Nice layout in the building. I like the idea of the wall through the middle separating the shop area from the storage or parking area. It gives less area to heat and should help keep your cars that you are not working on at the time from getting dirty or damaged by work going on in the work area.

Air compressor positioned somewhere besides the work shop proper, an absolute must in my book.

Hoist, where you get the best use out of it without it being in the way when you walk in and out of the shop. Where you show it in your drawing is good but will it get in the way every time you go in or out the walk in door? If you have to make an effort to walk around it every time you go in or out it might become a hassle.

Workbench and window? Some of us like to be able to look up from the workbench and look out the window to see outside others don't care but that may be something to consider.

Large stationary pieces across the front, good idea. Sometimes a guy has to move things around until he gets them where he seems to get the best use of them.
Some pieces like a bench vise or grinder you can put on pedestals so that you can shove them back out of the way when you need to or drag them over closer to where you are working when you need to.

That's a great shop with a lot of potential and I'd go nuts with that much room to play in right now.

 

[JC23]

You're rolling, now, green.

A few followup thoughts. What if you put those woodworking tools in the end of the storage bay? A few smaller heaters like Kero towers could keep you warm enuf (especially after you've insulated the whole place) and you'll keep sawdust out of the car area. And unless you have a whole buttload of cars, I'd guess it'd be hard to fill that big area up. I guess it depends on how much you need to do the wood thing.

As far as laying out the work side, first locate your lift and work the bigger equipment pieces out from there. You can factor in useage and even air/power lines, too. It's all a juggling act and like mr48 said, try it out and if it doesn't woirk, move it.

I laid out the shape of my shop by trying out different sizes drawn on cardboard in 1/25 scale. Then I used diecast cars to move about and find out what pattern worked best. For the layout of my office in my house, I made similar scale piecs of all the furniture and juggled them around til I found the right pattern for my use. I've found that when you have another dimension to play with, things open up in your head. Have some fun with it.

 

[ZRX61]

I'd lose one of the doors, probably the 2nd from the left on the *shop* side..

 

[greenbank]

Almost done drywall and insulating. Paying a good friend to do the work for me, I don't have the requisite skills and more importantly the time. Plus, I tend to do five minutes work and then stare at my just-completed "progress" for the next fifteen.

We removed the ties from the truss to the outside wall, where a lift will eventually go. They were only in with two 16 penny nails on the wall side, and if the building falls down I guess I'll know that wasn't a great idea. I think they were used as an aid to putting the building up, and a handy place to hang garage door openers, etc.

We're going to insulate around the doors, of course, and use 1/2 plywood to finish there...way too fiddly to do a satisfactory job with drywall, plus we really don't want to remount the doors; we can work around their mounts easily when using ply.

I think for lighting I'm just going to get the four-pack of six-bulb 4' T8 "high bay" fixtures or mount two 4' per slope per bay, with local task lighting where warranted.

I decided to put the lift in the outside bay as the bathroom had already chewed up an area at one end, and in a "storage emergency" I can easily get two cars of the kind I work on in the other bay.

This building is pretty damp, have a dehumidifier on the way to help. It's not leaking, it's just the temp shocks with the slab, I think. The newly insulated side is now a lot drier, the storage side, though, is humid. Not sweating on stuff, but any paper left over there has that damp feel fairly quickly, and, for example, if you left a damp car washing rag over there it would never dry out.

Not sure if sealing the floors would help on the "cold" side. I cannot afford a "fancy" floor so am thinking of doing the industrial Rustoleum, certainly on the working side. Alternative to that would just be sealing the slab.

The bay for the hoist will just fit one in there. It's 11'2" between the new stud wall and the center truss. The one I've been eyeing is 10'9" across the outside of the base plates.

We put a new service panel in, even though the shop is still only powered by a 60 amp lead from the house. It's prepped for 200 amp service when I'm ready. We also laid down a bunch of spare 220V in the walls to accommodate future expansion. (Jeebus wire is expensive.)

I'm going to surface mount the air, thought about in-wall but decided I'd rather have it out where I can service it. The compressor will be in the storage side. I'll run black iron along the center wall on the storage side, through, and back down the shop side, which should give me 60 - 70 feet of line before getting to the first drop for a tool, lots of distance for the air to cool down and loose moisture.

That little heater does a good job of keeping this side warm in our mild climate. Building from scratch I would do in-floor and stick build, but you go with the hand you're dealt, and this setup is such a huge step up for me that I'm not even going to think about complaining. Unless the wall falls over, of course.

Anyway, not the most exciting update. But this is getting pretty exciting me. By this time next week it should be mudded, and then I can prime, paint, do the floors, and actually get my tools out of storage!

 

[jktruck150]

The exposed trusses look great! I like it!

 

[greenbank]

Here's where I am today:

It doesn't seem like much progress, but I can't tell you how glad I am to be done with paint-rollers-on-a-stick (eight gallons of paint, after four of primer). The shop will not normally be this full of wheeled stuff, but the storage side is a total disaster right now. Sorting it out is on my list.

I went with eight four-foot four-bulb fluorescent fixtures, and I like the amount of light they give. I will probably need some task lighting for work areas, but I'll wait and see on that. Combined with the gloss white paint, it's way brighter than it was before.

The peak of the roof is about 15' from the ground, it's 9' under the truss. Putting the upper lights on was fun...strapped the 8' ladder into the bed of my truck and then got some exercise pushing the 4500 pound truck around to position the ladder.

I bought a bunch of VCT surplus for the floor, but the colors were awful and frankly at this point I'm ready to work on cars and bikes (not to mention my wife's huge to-do list) so I'm just going to go with plain concrete for the time being. It's already a stained floor and while I'll try to keep new markings to a minimum, not much further damage will be done as it is. Thankfully I didn't pay much for the VCT and the 25 (!) 5-gallon pails of adhesive.

Where I've thrown the metal tables will be a paint booth for parts, utilizing the old wood stove chimney. Next to it will be my bead blasting booth and next to that (where the toolbox is) will be my parts washer. The MGs are in the lift bay, but the front wall behind the grey GT will be a workbench, and my press will be in that area too. I am going to put casters on both metal tables and use them as work tables, usually out in the open. They can fit through the door to storage so I'll probably only have one out at a time unless I need both.

I'll be putting some cabinets up but where the Rover is parked is my main project work area, plus if I paint a car I'll put the temporary paint booth there...so nothing on the walls that cannot be folded up or quickly removed there.

That little 220 wall heater keeps the place at 55 degrees without running much at all, a few minutes per hour.

I'm contemplating a full-size dehumidifier. This side stays in the 50% range (which is OK, that's typical house humidity, paper doesn't get soggy and tools don't rust at that level), but the unheated storage side has a small dehumidifier running and it cannot drop it below about 70%, which is right on the cusp of feeling a bit damp. Then again, I have my wood-decked trailer in there now (has been for a few months) and the deck is rotten, so I may just be trying to get 10 years of rain out of ten 2 x 8s...

 

[49stude2r6]

Great looking shop and projects. Thanks for sharing and please don't stop posting progress when it happens.

 

[Hit-By-Thunder]

I really love those massive trusses. Great progress, as for humidity, I am at 94% but that is mostly cause of the new concrete.

Rob/HBT

 

[greenbank]

I'm trying the old plastic-taped-to-the-floor test to see if the slab (which has been there for ten years) is the source, or if it's just a leaky building. This summer I'll be going around the outside with a caulk gun to make sure the building is as sealed as I can get it.

Having this side finished is a huge incentive to finish the other side, but I just don't have the money at the moment. I suspect having the other side insulated and heated would do wonders for the humidity, or at least drop it into the 50% range which would be fine. I may put a small heater on a timer over there even without insulating it just to try and dry out the air a bit.

 

[noonehas]

Hi green, nice build so far. Have you ever thought about placing compressor outside? I did this at my shop with a small surround that if covered with chopped wood. You can barely hear it and easy to service. I like this cause not take up space in shop and no noise in building.

 

[PurdueSD]

Super cool setup with the interior wall. If i ever build another shop it will have a couple different rooms. I would love to have a separate area for clean storage and another for fab work.

As far as the air lines go. Check out the link in my signature as to what i did (page 11 post 217). It has worked flawlessly to this point!

Here is the general idea...

Goodluck.

 

[dlenkewich]

You're not going to feel dry until the building is completely insulated... Or insulate the dividing wall.

Great looking garage. Those beams are awesome.

 

[greenbank]

Some minor progress to report. I know y'all have been waiting.

This was my shop as of a few weeks ago. Some art up, not much else had changed...other than my project is back from the bodyshop. Only was there for 10 years (not kidding!).

But my temporary benches and lack of storage on this side for often used items was driving me bonkers. A week ago I found a dude on CL selling upper cabinets out of a law office downtown. I picked a bunch up for $35 each, which is less than the cost of the materials to build them, let alone hinges, handles, blah blah. The cabinets have doors which are 4" longer than the box to allow hidden under-cab lighting, which I'll take advantage of.

So I mounted them, and decided that I would build myself some work benches. Along the back wall I am building a 18' bench which will be used mainly for staging and for keeping some smaller stationary tools. I was thinking of drawers or cabinets underneath, but I think I actually prefer the flexibility of plastic storage boxes. You can see what's in them and re-arrange them at will...plus carry them to where you're working. So just a single shelf below.

This is the progress I made today:

I would be done by now but the damn wall has a bulge in it. So the first 8' section, to the left, I assembled on the floor and quickly had in place. When I came to put the next assembled section up, I discovered the bulge...or rather, rediscovered it, since it affected the cabinet hanging as well and I just didn't even think about it when building the benches.

Anyway, I built the right section in place. I'm going to use 3/4 ply for the top of this bench, 1/2 ply for the shelf. I'll have to scribe it to fit on the right...fun fun fun!

I'm building a 16' bench for working against the wall where the art is, but starting out of the frame and ending up where the lathe is. This one will be very similar, except the first 8' will have the same ply top and then the last 8' will have a 1/2" ply top with 1/4" steel plate on it. That's where most of the action will happen.

I'm inclined to build those benches as two free-standing 8' benches, so I can move them around if I get a wild hair, or if I can ever afford a lift, one may need to move anyway.

I'd like to use receiver hitches for mounting vises and grinders and such, but the way I've built these benches, I'd either have to notch the upper support, or mount the receivers below and see if there is such a thing as a 4" rise tool mount. Hm.

 

[ckadams00]

Green - you have an incredible space. Glad you moved in so quick and got it "working" - my tendency is to sit on stuff and think about it forever rather than get things moving. The paint looks sharp!

Your collection of cars is awesome! I always think there is nothing odder than a Jag with Washington plates (I'm from Seattle originally). It sure looks like you clean upi your "projects" nicely.

I am reading this a bit late to help on your questions, and can't help on most of them anyway, but I did want to say that sealing the concrete floor is probably a good idea - everwhere I lived in WA had an issue with moisture in the floors and your cars are too nice to expose to more rust than you need to. Second, I wanted to say "bravo" for putting in the service panel now even if you are not going to run service from the street at this time. If you determine you don't actually need it, then you saved a bundle that I am sure will go a long way towards paying for the lift.

Keep up the great work!

 

[greenbank]

New benches

Well, I finally got my new benches done. A couple days work and "100 bucks, I think" turned into a couple weeks of spare time and almost $800. Ouch.

Above is my main work area. The wood for the benches, 16' on this wall, free-standing, and 18' on the back wall, attached, was about $450--we're talking 2 x 4 and plywood, though I paid an extra 75 cents a stick for nicer fir and got A/C plywood, so it could have been done cheaper, but not a lot.

The back bench, which is mainly meant to be a staging and collection area, keeping my main bench free of clutter. (Yeah, right!) I had to get creative at the far end because of how the bath wall was built, but it gave me a place for the trash can. That said, I need to get a shorty can for there as there just isn't enough vertical clearance to keep it from being annoying when you're trying to toss stuff out!

The finishing materials cost about $70, which was mainly stain (I chose green to add a bit of color to the place, and pickling for the top) and varnish. I doubt it will be all that durable as a working surface, but the 8' section in steel is my main work area. If the ply top gets too beat I'll formica it, just ran out of money and want to work on other stuff!

The vise solution seems sturdy, but if it proves not to be, I'll mount it on the worktop. The steel, 2' x 8' x .25" weighs 165 pounds and cost $200 with tax, the other big expense.

The computer is an ancient laptop with a cheapie display from costco, wall mounted on a swinging arm, and wireless keyboard and mouse I can lift out of the way. I have the audio from it running into my even more elderly Denon system, so I can play MP3s through the amp.

The cabinets are mainly paint and cleaners and other supplies at this point, but they aren't full and I hope to get most everything I need into them.

Only missing piece of the storage puzzle now is fasteners. I'm watching CL for an old card catalog...I currently have the bolts and such over on the storage side of the shop, which is kind of a pain.

 

[greenbank]

I forgot to mention, if anyone cares, that the top on the steel bench is 3/4" ply with the 1/4" steel on top, the ply bench next to it has a 1" top (two 1/2" sheets glued together). The lower shelves are all 1/2" ply. The back bench has 3/4" ply as a top. It's all pretty sturdy. About 42 8'-2x4 boards went into this, including a small bench (32" x 18") near the door which I'm using as my car cleaning storage area.

(I have one cabinet mounted above the small cleaning bench for waxes and stuff; it's absolutely stuffed. One of the dangers of getting old is that you buy the same damn stuff about sixteen times because you're not sure if you have any when you're standing like a ***** in the car cleaning aisle of the local store.)

 

[Boosted1]

The Jag? body on the dolly looks like it could tip over easy.
Awesome shop.

 

[jeepjunky]

Looks nice, I love the truss

 

[flybefree]

Looking good. I like the drill press and the lathe! Have you thought about sealing the pad?

Shaun

 

[greenbank]

The Jag? body on the dolly looks like it could tip over easy.

It's relatively stable, but I'm with you...as soon as I get it undercoated and the suspension on, it's going off the dolly.

 

[greenbank]

Looking good. I like the drill press and the lathe! Have you thought about sealing the pad?

The lathe is in good working order but I don't have an overhead lineshaft, so it's there as elder statesman (built in 1885). Drill press is awesome--I love old Delta tools, this one is from the mid-fifties.

Thought about sealing the pad, but I don't get any moisture through it, and it has so much oil from both me and the previous guy that it would be a bear to get clean enough to put something on. I'm not going to do epoxy or anything else, I drop too much stuff, and drag stuff around.

One day someone will come up with a coating that you can apply over oil stains without prep and that person will make a mint.