Land ISSUES - Lawyers advise

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

OK, this is for any of the Lawyers out there.

Last July we purchased a house with 6.66 acres in a agricultural area, yes out in the country where we wanted to be. The smell of cows, corn & fresh air is what I've wanted for 20 years and now we have it.

Well early on I knew that our property went out into the field that the neighbor has been farming. I've mentioned it to them and asked that they till it but not plant it as I wanted to put in a garden & some trees along the property line. Well this weekend I went out to put in the garden and low and behold it is planted to soybeans. I drive down to the farm office and talk to both the son and father and they hand me a document that states that they have a 30 year lease on over 2 acres of my land. None of this was disclosed to us prior to the closing nor since.

The agreement was put on file at the county court house and was done with an owner that owned the property in 1999, so that leaves 21 years on the agreement. The property has changed has 3 times since.

What is our recourse? I am not going to give up 1/3 of my property for 21 years. A) I plan to build a shop and B) It really %^#&@% me off that this was handled the way it was by the farmer. C) is it not the Title companies job to catch and clear all this?

We don't want to be the neighbor that pushes the issue or upsets anyone but none of this is making me a happy homeowner.

 

[Lloydthumper]

I wonder if there is any recourse if you put up a fence on your property line. They can still plant it but It will make it a ***** for them to do it. I think each state is different on there laws as such. good luck.

 

[Junkman]

I am not an attorney, however, I have a very diversified background in land / title issues. My first question to you is "were you represented by an attorney" and if so, did you have him do a title search? If you were represented by an attorney, and he did the title search, or paid to have it done, then your beef is with the attorney. Was the property sold through a licensed real estate broker? If it was, then the broker has the obligation to disclose any and all information to the prospective buyer. Remember, that if you went to the broker that listed the property, that the broker was working for the seller, not you the buyer. If you didn't have an attorney that was representing you, then you are in a jam, and the only recourse that you can have is against the previous owner. In essence, in 1999, the then owner leased the land for 20 years, collected the money, and that diminished the value of the property. Your job will be to learn as much as possible about the 1999 transaction as you can. I would start with the local land office, and try to determine who the attorneys were that represented each of the people in the contract. Also check to see when the document was filed. It is possible that the document wasn't on file when you bought the land, and was filed afterward. Don't be angry with the farmer, because he is actually the innocent party in this. He didn't sell you the land, and he never made any representations other than to tell you that he had a lease on the land. In the end, you are going to be spending a lot of money on lawyers to get this rectified, if you even can rectify it. The farmer appears to have good reason not to want to give up the land that he paid for 7 years ago. If the title company didn't find this document and it was filed, then it is up to them to fix the problem to your satisfaction. Keep in mind that they can just pay you what you purchased the land for, and then take the property from you. They will make a deal to sell the leased parcel to the farmer, and then resell the property, and probably break even in the end. Just remember not to get angry at anyone, and never raise your voice. If you remain calm and reasonable, you will have a better chance of resolving this issue.

 

[toxicz28]

I can't answer for your state, but in NY, the lease will hold up in court. However, it should have been disclosed to you prior to the sale, unless, there is the rule like in NY where the seller kicks money back to the buyer for not filling out the disclosure papers. Both you, and your agent(if you had one) should have inquired about any restrictions, easments, leases, right-of-way clauses, etc. especially if you knew "early on", that the field was being farmed. Since I didn't handle the transaction, I don't know the language that was used in the deal. Your best be would be to get "ALL" of the paperwork (offers, contracts, etc.) that was involved in your deal and consult an attorney "in person" so they can read the paperwork. My guess, you're going to be a landlord for the next 21 years. At least they are paying you for the use of your land, right?

 

[kbs2244]

Get a real lawyer ASAP.
Maybe not a local one that knows the farmer personally.
The ones with their offices across the street from the county courthouse are a good place to start.
This should have been caught buy the surveyor
(You did have one done, didn't you?)
I don’t think it is a title co issue. Their job is make sure there are no liens on the property, not that the boundaries are as represented. Theirs is a pure paperwork and records checking function.
If it is a lease was it a lump sum paid up front for 30 years of usage? That would be pretty rare. If not, then the farmer should have been paying some one for the use of the property. Probably on a yearly basis.
Has he been doing that?
If not, then he is probably in default on his rights to use the land.
But this is why those guys go to school for 8 years.

 

[W-Cummins]

Might be much less hassle to just buy them out of the lease.

BTW you purchased the property in July didn't you notice the corn/beans planted on the 1/3 of the land you were buying??

William..

 

[Itzkwik]

Well early on I knew that our property went out into the field that the neighbor has been farming. I've mentioned it to them and asked that they till it but not plant it as I wanted to put in a garden & some trees along the property line. Well this weekend I went out to put in the garden and low and behold it is planted to soybeans.

So what did the farmer say when you asked him to till the land for you but not plant on it? The lease was already in effect. Seems something would have been mentioned at that time.

 

[Wardster]

Not the farmers fault that the previous owner, their broker, your broker, and the title company did not make you aware of the lease. What did the paper the farmer showed you say? Is there any cash tied to the lease (100% sure there should be).

-Wardster

 

[67 455 Bird ragtop]

The title company and/or the county clerks office screwed up big time. If the the lease is on record they should have found it. Here is what the purpose of the title company is...


Before the closing, the title company will order a title report to make sure the sellers actually own the home and that no one else has a legal interest in the property. This process will identify any potential title problems or liens. Title insurance covers you against any future claims that did not appear on the title report. It is a one-time charge that you pay at the closing of the transaction, and it covers your future equity up to a stated maximum amount as your property increases in value. It's a small price to pay to protect such a major investment.

Since obviously the farmer has a legal interest in the property as well as who ever initiated the lease. This lease should have been discovered and disclosed at the time of closing. Get a lawyer and make sure they research all transactions from the time the lease was let to when you closed on the property. See if other buyers were made aware of the lease. If they were did they have the same title company as you did. THis is going to be messy. Hang in there. And also, definatly have someone look over the lease with a fine tooth comb.

Good luck.

 

[Tscott]

I second what most are saying. I am not an attorney, but a few in my family are. My advice is to get a lawyer ASAP and they will go after the title company. The title company is bonded for just this type of thing. If they missed it it is their fault and they will eventually have to pay. This may mean a monetary settlement for you or they may even be required to buy out the farmers share for you. It could go many ways, but it sounds like you have a good strong case.

Good luck
Tom

 

[anojones]

I agree- if you purchased title insurance at the time of the sale (not all land purchasers do this) than you will have a claim- it's why you buy the insurance, they missed something in the title search. How it will turn out I don't know- hopefully you haven't built any structures as of yet, as I don't think the title insurance has any obligation beyond the cost of the parcel itself. It sounds as if the ideal situation would be for the title insurance company to buy out the lease from the farmer.

 

[Ranger1227]

The first issue to find out is if the lease was recorded in the deed office at the county. If it was properly recorded, then you have to find out whose responsibility it is to have researched. If you were provided with a title insurance policy, you should review it to see what is listed. If you had an attorney review the title polciy and the lease was shown, you have some issues with your attorney. However, if the title company simply missed it, you have issues with them.

I have used different title companies and can tell you that the level of information varies greatly from one to the next.

In addition, you need to look at the broker and previous owner to find out why they did not tell you of this lease.

The ultimate questions are: 1. If you knew about the lease, would you have foregone purchasing? 2. What are your actual damages? This may be hard to prove.

You may be able to have a judge throw out the transaction. However, be careful as you don't know if the previous owner still has all of your money.

Are you able to collect rent from the farmer?

Also, you need to review the lease to see what additional rights the farmer has to renew the lease. Some leases grant the tenant periodic rights to renew so long as they are not in default. Check carefully to see what, if any further rights, the tenant has.

 

[carguy123]

I own a mortgage company and a real estate office and I agree with most of the above. it WAS a title company issue. It WAS a Realtor issue. It WAS a title policy issue.

And yes all are liable for not making you aware of same. I also agree about getting rent paid to you.

On the other hand - you admitted you were aware of the encroachment. It was YOUR responsibility to get it clarified so you legal position is weakened accordingly.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

There is no dissagreement of where the property corners are.

Yes I knew the corn was on my property last year and discussed it with the farmer at that point. Yes this spring prior to them tilling the ground I did talk to them about it and they made no mention of the lease. They did not make any mention to it until after they planted the area we discussed 4-5 times.

I have been in contact with the Title company and they are looking into it, at this point their early respose is that the lease was null and void when the first owner (one they had the agreement with) sold the property. And if this is the case they would of not found it in a title search because it had changed hands twice between then and now.

Even if it is still "legal and binding" the title company &/or Fannie May, who we bought the property from, will have to settle it with the farmer. As all the paperwork we have from the purchase of the property states that it is free and clear from anything.

As this was purchased out of foreclosure from Fannie May they can not sell the property with any leans or any other agreements bound to it.

We are suppose to get a call from the title companys layer today or tomorrow morning. As I see one of three things can happen.

A) it was the title company / Fannie May's issue and they have to settle with the farmer.

B) The lease was acctually null and void because of property transaction which results it three options:
1) Farmer pays me rent to get what he has planted grown and harvested
2) Farmer tills up what he has planted and immediately turns property over
3) I borrow a tractor and implement from a friend and I do it myself.

 

[BrianAltenhofel]

I don't know what the soybean economics there are, but I think the potential profits of two acres of any crop would be negligible compared to the rest of the farmer's land, unless he only plants a few acres a year. Even then, assuming a potential profit of $300-325 per acre (based on a 49 bushel per acre yield), that's a very cheap lease.

The farmer may also not know that the lease expired (if it indeed did) when the property changed hands, and then he also have a case with the previous owner he got the lease through.

 

[Ranger1227]

I don't know what the foreclosure laws are in your state, but where I practice, the judgment of foreclosure provides that any leaseholds are terminated. In the event that the tenant does not leave, you can then evict them. So, one of the things you need to find out is whether the judgment of foreclosure provided for the termiation of the lease. If so, then you may be able to evict them.

 

[PAToyota]

One thing to consider is what sort of relationship you want with the farmer going forward... It can be very beneficial to know someone with tractors and other equipment - not to mention that feuds with neighbors never make life any easier.

At best there was a misunderstanding of where the farmer thought he stood when the first property owner sold the property - possibly terminating the lease then.

A little further down the scale is that the lease is still valid and the title search failed to pick it up and amends will have to be made to the farmer by the title company or such.

But I'd tend to err on the side of caution and even if the farmer has no claim to the land I'd be inclined to let him harvest the crop free of rent or anything as a gesture of goodwill between neighbors. Hard to say how he might be able to help you out in the future in return.

 

[67 455 Bird ragtop]

Some leases expire when the original owner sells the property. Get ALL the LEGAL information before you talk to the farmer again. Try and think of ways keeping his friendship would br beneficial to you long term. Don't act too hastily.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

I told the farmers when we talked that I don't want to be "that" neighbor. I also stated that it is not OK for them to have 2 acres of my land for 21 more years.

One way or another it will be resolved and I hope someway that both parties are civil about the outcome.

For those that asked farmer farms 3000+ acres so this 2 acres is nothing, just an edge of his field.

I will keep you all posted as to the outcome. We are expecting a call from the Title company lawyer tomorrow.

 

[jay50]

One thing to consider is what sort of relationship you want with the farmer going forward... It can be very beneficial to know someone with tractors and other equipment - not to mention that feuds with neighbors never make life any easier.

At best there was a misunderstanding of where the farmer thought he stood when the first property owner sold the property - possibly terminating the lease then.

A little further down the scale is that the lease is still valid and the title search failed to pick it up and amends will have to be made to the farmer by the title company or such.

But I'd tend to err on the side of caution and even if the farmer has no claim to the land I'd be inclined to let him harvest the crop free of rent or anything as a gesture of goodwill between neighbors. Hard to say how he might be able to help you out in the future in return.

Agree, be on good terms with the farmers; you might want him to plow up an area for you to have a big garden. At the rate of gas and groceries prices going upward; a big garden and a friendly farmer will be the right mix...

 

[carguy123]

Fannie Mae doesn't warrant that there are no other claimants to the property such as a leasehold.

Leaseholds survive a change in ownership and run with the property. Of course he could have violated the lease by not paying.

 

[bluesman2a]

Agree, be on good terms with the farmers; you might want him to plow up an area for you to have a big garden. At the rate of gas and groceries prices going upward; a big garden and a friendly farmer will be the right mix...

X3 on THAT one... Regardless of how this goes, it's not costing you anything to let the man finish out this crop rotation for nothing. It's better to have a friendly neighbor than one that has an axe to grind.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Here is the email exchange with the Title Company yesterday, hope to have an answer today.

---------------------

Hello Shanda and Keith,
Well, our title exam dept has asked me to let you know that if you feel you have a title claim regarding this issue to please write out the summary of the situation in your own words with all the info and details that you have and send that to our office and then they will investigate it further from there. The contact info for our office is below, you can put it to my attention if you like and I will make sure it goes to the correct people.
Thank you,
Tiffany

-------------------------------
My Response:

Below is the description of the situation we have on the property we purchased on July 31st 2007, 7630 Seneca Hwy Morenci, Michigan 49256

When the property was purchased it was free and clear of any recorded lien or right to lien, easements or claims.

Last weekend we approached the farmer that farms the acreage around our property about 2 acres that he has planted that is on our 6.669 acres of land. This was after discussing with them multiple times that our property extends into their field, and we wanted to utilize part of that space to plant a garden and some trees. Not until after they had this 2 acres planted did they present the document, that we faxed over Monday, that shows that they had a lease agreement with a previous owner on that 2 acres. The lease was filed in February 1999 and was for a 30 year lease based on a one lump sum payment. (Making the agreement end in 2029)

Up until this point no one, including the realtor, title company, farmer, or seller (Fannie May) disclosed any of this information to us.

We were sold the property free and clear of any legal claims and thus we own and have access to 100% of the land. We need to rectify this as I am not happy that almost a third of my property is at this point believe to be under a lease contract that we had no knowledge of or benefit from.

An acceptable resolution to this would come from two outcomes; A) Show that the lease is null and void due to some previous transaction or B) the parties that sold us the property settle with the farmer and buy out the lease.

Either of these resolutions would provide us with what we purchased. At this point it has been almost 10 months and we are without our purchase being fullfilled. And now with the farmer having crops planted on this acreage we are looking at fall of this year prior to having a civil resolution with a new neighbor that we inted to live next to for the forseable future.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Well recieved a reply this morning but it looks like they have to dig deeper as this is the reply.

So a quick and timely response is yet another week away. As long as we can get this worked out timing is not an issue now as the field is already planted for the year.
_____________________

Thank you, I have forwarded this on to two of our Managers. You can contact XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX to follow up on this situation as they will be handling this now. They did ask me to let you know that they are going to order the entire original file from storage and they then are going to examine everything, this will take a few days. They said the earliest that they will have an answer for you is late next week. Please wait until then to give them a call so that they will have time to investigate before they talk to you.

Thank you for your help and hopefully we can get this resolved favorably for you.

 

[flesburg]

I am no expert, but I would call the lawyer you used to close on the property, and ask that he begin to file a law suit against Fanny May, for the cost of the 2 acres that they "illegally sold to you". You cannot sell something and swear that it is free and clear and then not deliver on the property. I would ask for a full refund of all of the money paid and damages, or a 30% refund on the purchase price.

Are 30 year leases normally "prepaid in one lump sum"? I do not think so!
Someone has pulled a scam here and should be in Jail!!! It could be the owner in 1999 or it could be the farmer. Are they one and the same person, or are they related? Sounds like a small town good old boy deal to me....

 

[Charles (in GA)]

One thing to consider is what sort of relationship you want with the farmer going forward... It can be very beneficial to know someone with tractors and other equipment - not to mention that feuds with neighbors never make life any easier.

At best there was a misunderstanding of where the farmer thought he stood when the first property owner sold the property - possibly terminating the lease then.

A little further down the scale is that the lease is still valid and the title search failed to pick it up and amends will have to be made to the farmer by the title company or such.

But I'd tend to err on the side of caution and even if the farmer has no claim to the land I'd be inclined to let him harvest the crop free of rent or anything as a gesture of goodwill between neighbors. Hard to say how he might be able to help you out in the future in return.

I wholehearted agree with this approach. The farmer is probably just as much in the dark about this are you were, be nice to him, and realize that in the big scheme of things, a good working friendship with him is probably in your's (and his) best interest.

If it turns out that someone else, the title company, Fannie Mae or whatever, has to buy him out, so be it, but I'd leave the crop. Have a simple agreement drawn up to allow him to farm it for this season thru the harvest. Invite him over for BBQ when its all over, no long term harm has been done, its not like he built a million dollar building on the land.

Charles

 

[Jaguar Fan]

Invite him over for BBQ when its all over, no long term harm has been done, its not like he built a million dollar building on the land.

Charles

Another reason to understand the farmer is that while he didn't build a million dollar building, it is possible that he invested in more or larger farm equipment than he otherwise would have if he never had the lease in the first place... or he took out a loan from a realtive to prepay the 30 year lease and is now on the hook to repay HIS loan without any profit from your land... etc... ... my point being someone somewhere needs to listen to & hear & understand the farmer's position as part of getting to the ultimate solution with a minimum of pissed-off feelings.

 

[BrianAltenhofel]

Are 30 year leases normally "prepaid in one lump sum"? I do not think so!

On farms? Its not uncommon. Its often more economical to lease an acreage for a long term by paying one lump sum than having your lease payment be adjusted with inflation.

The same goes for damage payments by drilling companies. Once they decide they want to rig up at a certain location, they can pay the damages any time they want to prior to rigging up. Its not uncommon around here for them to pay 3-5 years prior to rigging up.

There was an auction down the road from where I live that involved 283 acres (10 acres for the residence, 9 acres for the pond, 40 acres currently leased for wheat, and the 224 acres whatever your heart desired). However, a drilling company had already paid damages for 13 acres to rig up and use water from the creek-fed pond. Guess what? The buyer has no legal right to those funds and has no legal right to tell the driller a couple of years from now that they can't drill on their land. The buyer also has no mineral rights as those were retained by the seller (very common practice for many years... my great grandmother had mineral rights to a large amount of acreage that had been sold 60-70 years ago).

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

I know the farmer and family had no need to borrow against this 2 acres, they farm 3000+ and if they had to possition this 2 acres to keep in business, the whole family would not work the farm.

He is in the understanding that the lease is 100% legal and I can not fault him for that.

However I was sold the property free and clear so I am not going to settle with the way it is right now.

Until I hear back from the Title company one way or another I'm not going to spend a cent out of my pocket to challenge the lease, the sale or the farmer.

They are good people, as the son plowed my driveway all winter and took nothing in return for it. I want it to be civil and once it's worked out I'm sure I'll have them over for a few barley pops and a dip in the pool.

My original post and probably my second post were when I was very upset with the situation, calmer heads have settled in since.

 

[jay50]

Here is the email exchange with the Title Company yesterday, hope to have an answer today.

---------------------

Hello Shanda and Keith,
Well, our title exam dept has asked me to let you know that if you feel you have a title claim regarding this issue to please write out the summary of the situation in your own words with all the info and details that you have and send that to our office and then they will investigate it further from there. The contact info for our office is below, you can put it to my attention if you like and I will make sure it goes to the correct people.
Thank you,
Tiffany

-------------------------------
My Response:

Below is the description of the situation we have on the property we purchased on July 31st 2007, 7630 Seneca Hwy Morenci, Michigan 49256

When the property was purchased it was free and clear of any recorded lien or right to lien, easements or claims.

Last weekend we approached the farmer that farms the acreage around our property about 2 acres that he has planted that is on our 6.669 acres of land. This was after discussing with them multiple times that our property extends into their field, and we wanted to utilize part of that space to plant a garden and some trees. Not until after they had this 2 acres planted did they present the document, that we faxed over Monday, that shows that they had a lease agreement with a previous owner on that 2 acres. The lease was filed in February 1999 and was for a 30 year lease based on a one lump sum payment. (Making the agreement end in 2029)

Up until this point no one, including the realtor, title company, farmer, or seller (Fannie May) disclosed any of this information to us.

We were sold the property free and clear of any legal claims and thus we own and have access to 100% of the land. We need to rectify this as I am not happy that almost a third of my property is at this point believe to be under a lease contract that we had no knowledge of or benefit from.

An acceptable resolution to this would come from two outcomes; A) Show that the lease is null and void due to some previous transaction or B) the parties that sold us the property settle with the farmer and buy out the lease.

Either of these resolutions would provide us with what we purchased. At this point it has been almost 10 months and we are without our purchase being fullfilled. And now with the farmer having crops planted on this acreage we are looking at fall of this year prior to having a civil resolution with a new neighbor that we inted to live next to for the forseable future.

Something doesn't smell right about this deal. Owner of property in 1999 make the lease, and this same piece of land has changed hands several times since then? Makes you wonder if the previous owners sold because they could not break the lease...

 

[Charles (in GA)]

All of this illustrates why on my last two purchases, I have done my own "title searches" to see if the lawyers have missed anything. On one piece of property, I asked the closing attorney about something I had found, which it turns out, they had not discovered. It was irrelevant in the end, but should have been noted and was not.

Charles

 

[kbs2244]

Welcome to the world of foreclosures.
I did it once.
May do it again.
But I will assume at least 10 percent in unexpected costs after the sale.
Is Fannie Mae considered a Government Agency?
Are they sueable?
How clean are their titles?
In light of what has been posted, I retract my opinion on the title co.
They may be the ones that pay in the end.
The question is who do they pay?
If the farmer is plowing your drive for free I suspect an hidden motive.
Why is he trying to get on your good side?
Two acres out of 3000 isn’t much, but it can get to be a principle sort of thing just as much with him as it is with you.
And that is when reason goes out the window.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

If the farmer is plowing 3000 acre, he has some large equipment. If there is a 2 acre bump in his plowing, it probably causes him some grief to go around, probably why he did the lease to start with.

Charles

 

[Will67]

A guy i know has 1.98 acres and has 4 horses, someone calls code enforcement and they come out and give him a fine for several code violations. One is that he can only have two horses per acre; he always rounded up his acreage when someone asked and it got to be second nature. To get around this particular violation, He wound up leasing 2.5 feet along his property line from his neighbor for 30-years.

What I am getting at is maybe this Farmer needs your 2.0 acres to qualify for some kind of a Farm Subsidy from the State or Federal Government????

 

[toxicz28]

Makes you wonder if the previous owners sold because they could not break the lease...

My thoughts exactly!

 

[Brad54]

Who is paying the taxes on these two acres?

It probably wouldn't affect the contract one way or the other, but if I bought two acres of land, and then not only couldn't use it for almost three decades AND was paying the taxes on it? Then, just to add insult to injury, take into account how much the taxes on the land are going to increase each year? I believe I'd have to plant salt all winter long.

-Brad

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

History is history, I'm dealing in the present with who I bought the property from.

And I'm not going to settle with where we are at currently. Reguardless of if the title company comes back favorably or not, I'll take my next step after I hear back from them.

And yes I'm paying the taxes on the property and have NO income from the lease for 22 years!

 

[bluesman2a]

OK, I gotta ask here to get some perspective/scale on this:

What kind of money are we talking on the "lump sum 30 year lease"? I'm not familiar with the scale here. Are we talking a couple hundred, a couple thousand, more/less?

If it's not unreasonable, I'd just talk with the farmer, see if you can pro-rate it and buy the lease out, then once you have a number you can work with the title company/closing lawyer for your compensation. Either way, I would specify he can finish this crop rotation/harvest and arrange the transaction after that.

 

[BrianAltenhofel]

If the farmer is plowing your drive for free I suspect an hidden motive.

That's being a good neighbor. The other day when I was out mowing, the neighbor who was mowing the ditches (that the county is really responsible for...) pulled his tractor up and got the strip next to one of the wheat fields. I'm thankful that he did, because I had spent three weeks trying to get my mower to run and ended up borrowing a mower with a 30" cut instead of my 54". The grass had grown up to the same level as the wheat and the wheat was still green, so I had been saving that area for last because I didn't want to hit the wheat field. His big *** blade (not sure how wide... 12 feet maybe?) knocked off a little over a half mile of me going back and forth on the mower in about 30 seconds.

They also know that if they ever need computer help of any kind, all they have to do is ask. Do I have a hidden motive by doing something I normally charge $50 per hour for free? Nope. Why should I (or them, in the OP's case) not help out my neighbors freely, especially if I am new to the area?

 

[rburke65]

I'll bet a solution to this problem is not going to be comming 'next week'. My wife is an attorney and it just seems that no one is going to say "I screwed up", they just point fingers, and drag it out.