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Store bought scenario

premierguy

Well-known member
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
92
I’ve just been approached by a diy’er job in which a 20 % w/b product was applied to an interior kitchen floor being used for business. (I love w/b for various projects and have never seen delaminating of a 2-coated w/b floor in my brother’s work shed after 5 years use).


Thus far, the top sheen of the wb is stripping off with the abrasive part of the mop…. (Water and ammonia) is being used to clean.

It is already understood that I will not warranty any failure of delamination from the substrate… but he is confident to move forward with my warranty on the next coat or coats.

The positive side is that he filled in the existing pinholes in the flooring with the w/b. The down side is that I tested my $160.00 per gallon Iron Coat and burned the base coat a little.


Based on the scenario given…. What would you suggest for a proud diy’er that is giving me the reigns to move forward? :headscrat
 
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Ranger1227

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May 5, 2008
Messages
50
You have raised an interesting scenario. I don't see how you can gurantee anything given the problems underneath. We had problems with paint/stain peeling off the trim of our house. After having it all sandblasated off, we hired another painter to redo the house. He agree, but would not gurantee at all, given the problems we had. I couldn't blame him. We have not had any problems.

Its' great to offer the warranty, but what are you really guaranteeing if there are already delamination problems and your product will burn the previous product?
 

Floorguy

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Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
132
Location
Austin, Texas
I would not offer a warranty unless I could get down to bare concrete. If the existing coating fails and your coat is sticking to that, then yours fails also.

Just my $.02
 

SC-Eric

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Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
833
Location
Spartanburg, SC
It doesn't make sense to me to give ANY warranty at all... whatsoever!

The positive side is that he filled in the existing pinholes in the flooring with the w/b.
This might not be positive. Basically, they have filled in a weak material with another weak material. Since the cohesive strength of waterborne coatings is generally low, the odds are usually better if the coat is thinner if you are applying a non-pervious (non pourous) coating over the top. It's kind of like those flaky biscuits. The taller it is the more likely that it is beginning to split in the middle. You'll notice that the buscuit is pretty well together up to a certain height... it kinda works the same way for strength... but not exactly. Basically, if you have a material with low cohesive strength then the thicker it is the greater the odds (an opportunities) that it will fail cohesively. Did I explain that in a way that makes sense to you?
gallery_6080_205_49808.jpg


Ummmm... I LOVE biscuits!!!

The down side is that I tested my $160.00 per gallon Iron Coat and burned the base coat a little.
There are a BUNCH of products called Iron Coat from many manufacturers. Which exact product are you talking about. When you say you 'burned the basecoat a little' what exactly did you see? I'm guessing that you are using a solvented product?

Last, here is what I think could happen:
You've got a porous coating that has been applied. As the water made it's way out of the coating (coat #1) during the evaporation phase it left (at best) a microporous substrate. Then, if coat # 2 was also a waterborne (especially a low solids one) then the same thing happened. While some of the original pours may have been sealed, it is likely that not all of them were sealed. Then, depending on the molecular weight of the polymer, it is unlikely that any of the smaller pours were filled because (in general) those products have a surface tension that is too high to fill something small. At best, if all the stars line up in the sky just right, you've got one microporous coat with pours traveling from the top of the coat through the coating to the concrete; then, you've got a second coat with a microporous network traveling from the top of that coat at least through the coating to the first coat. Whhhewww... that's a mouthful to write... just digest that for a moment before continuing... sorry this is so long...

Sooo.... If you are going to then put an impervious coating over the top of that, this floor will get sealed. IF there is hydrostatic pressure under that coating, it is likely escaping without putting a whole lot of pressure on the 2 coats of waterborne with weak adhesion and cohesive strength. Those products don't need much adhesion since pressure is relieved through the porous network. Now, when you seal this, the pressure has no where to go.

Presto%2001755%20Pressure%20Cooker%20Canner.jpg


If you've ever seen a pressure cooker then you could (kinda) equate the impervious coating to the pressure regulator that is placed on top of the vent pipe (pours). The pressure regulator is a heavy cap that fits over the vent pipe of the pressure cooker. The weight of the pressure regulator determines how much pressure the pot can have in it before it blows the pressure regulator off so that steam can escape. As long as the pressure in the pot is low the regulator will stay put. So, once you block those pours with an impervious coating the pressure underneath is going to build.

So, the big questions are: Does coat # 1 or #2 have high enough adhesion and cohesive strength to hold in the pressure? Will coat #2 delaminate from coat #1 and will it be obvious or will it look like your material delaminated from the old material????? Unless the colors are the difference of night and day it may be very difficult to tell.

So, my advice is... don't mess with this job. Even if you don't give a warranty there is always a bad taste when projects don't go as planned. Many times customers forget that 'you told them so' and will hold you accountable even if you have things in writing. While you would win in court if you had things in writing, there is no way to win when the customer is 'bad mouthing' you to someone when you aren't around to defend yourself!

So... Run Forest... Run Forest... Run!!!

forrest.jpg
 
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Jaguar Fan

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Park City for Ski Season; Las Vegas for Poker Seas
It doesn't make sense to me to give ANY warranty at all... whatsoever!


This might not be positive. Basically, they have filled in a weak material with another weak material. Since the cohesive strength of waterborne coatings is generally low, the odds are usually better if the coat is thinner if you are applying a non-pervious (non pourous) coating over the top. It's kind of like those flaky biscuits. The taller it is the more likely that it is beginning to split in the middle. You'll notice that the buscuit is pretty well together up to a certain height... it kinda works the same way for strength... but not exactly. Basically, if you have a material with low cohesive strength then the thicker it is the greater the odds (an opportunities) that it will fail cohesively. Did I explain that in a way that makes sense to you?
gallery_6080_205_49808.jpg


Ummmm... I LOVE biscuits!!!


There are a BUNCH of products called Iron Coat from many manufacturers. Which exact product are you talking about. When you say you 'burned the basecoat a little' what exactly did you see? I'm guessing that you are using a solvented product?

Last, here is what I think could happen:
You've got a porous coating that has been applied. As the water made it's way out of the coating (coat #1) during the evaporation phase it left (at best) a microporous substrate. Then, if coat # 2 was also a waterborne (especially a low solids one) then the same thing happened. While some of the original pours may have been sealed, it is likely that not all of them were sealed. Then, depending on the molecular weight of the polymer, it is unlikely that any of the smaller pours were filled because (in general) those products have a surface tension that is too high to fill something small. At best, if all the stars line up in the sky just right, you've got one microporous coat with pours traveling from the top of the coat through the coating to the concrete; then, you've got a second coat with a microporous network traveling from the top of that coat at least through the coating to the first coat. Whhhewww... that's a mouthful to write... just digest that for a moment before continuing... sorry this is so long...

Sooo.... If you are going to then put an impervious coating over the top of that, this floor will get sealed. IF there is hydrostatic pressure under that coating, it is likely escaping without putting a whole lot of pressure on the 2 coats of waterborne with weak adhesion and cohesive strength. Those products don't need much adhesion since pressure is relieved through the porous network. Now, when you seal this, the pressure has no where to go.

Presto%2001755%20Pressure%20Cooker%20Canner.jpg


If you've ever seen a pressure cooker then you could (kinda) equate the impervious coating to the pressure regulator that is placed on top of the vent pipe (pours). The pressure regulator is a heavy cap that fits over the vent pipe of the pressure cooker. The weight of the pressure regulator determines how much pressure the pot can have in it before it blows the pressure regulator off so that steam can escape. As long as the pressure in the pot is low the regulator will stay put. So, once you block those pours with an impervious coating the pressure underneath is going to build.

So, the big questions are: Does coat # 1 or #2 have high enough adhesion and cohesive strength to hold in the pressure? Will coat #2 delaminate from coat #1 and will it be obvious or will it look like your material delaminated from the old material????? Unless the colors are the difference of night and day it may be very difficult to tell.

So, my advice is... don't mess with this job. Even if you don't give a warranty there is always a bad taste when projects don't go as planned. Many times customers forget that 'you told them so' and will hold you accountable even if you have things in writing. While you would win in court if you had things in writing, there is no way to win when the customer is 'bad mouthing' you to someone when you aren't around to defend yourself!

So... Run Forest... Run Forest... Run!!!

forrest.jpg

I really enjoy your explanations (here and in all the other threads)... clearly there is some complex stuff going on, and you always seem to find a way to explain it so a non-chem guy like me can understand it. I just wanted to say "thanks". Maybe in retirement I'll go take a few chem/chem E classes for fun. (As opposed to my current plan of getting a PhD in "Leisure Studies.")
 
OP
P

premierguy

Well-known member
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
92
Life… is like a box of chocolates… “you never know watch yer gonna get”.

Firstly, congrats to Wolverine for recognizing the family my Iron Coat belongs too.
Secondly, there is no evidence that 2-coats were applied to the kitchen floor in this scenario… The floor has a 20% w/b product applied and my brother’s floor is a 2-coat high percentage w/b product with additional additives for bond and elasticity…. Which is totally killer for wb after 5 years on grade with no liner in the Midwest.

Never the less, I really don’t have any angles to bid this job correctly…nor can I expect the guy to pay for the removal fee due to the actions already taken.

The problem is... I can’t help but have a heart for the current situation.

That Truck is barreling down on me, isn’t it?
 
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premierguy

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Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
92
No chance to dance on this floor....

It was 5 days after first viewing this floor, and the top half has been scrubbed off at least 20% within 1 months use. This has only led me to give him one option (re-prep).

I really am disgusted about more **** going to the landfill when it is totally unnecessary!
 
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