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Question re: acid wash

mike_c70

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Hi all,

First time poster but long time reader. I'm finally going to tackle my own DIY epoxy flooring (haven't figured out which one, there really isn't a clear winner on it). But anyways, I have a question regarding acid washing. I know muriatic acid is pretty nasty stuff as is, so what's the recommended dilution rate?

More importantly, I'm concerning about mopping this stuff up. After using the acid wash on the concrete (scrubbing and let it bubble, etc), you're suppose to wash it off. But is it safe for that stuff to go into the yard (ie grass, sidewalk, etc)? Do you mop it up with towels? What do you guys do? BTW, where can I find muriatic acid? Home Depot/Lowes?

Any links to how to acid wash is much appreciated. Thanks!

Oh yeah, what degreasers do you recommend?

Regards,
Mike
 
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04 Navi

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Mike use the search button for all of the questions that you asked. There is a wealth of information about dilution ratio's, runoff etc. Not only that, you do need to pick a manufacturer because they will specify what you need to do for prep, and if you have a problem with the application it will be imperitive to follow their steps for preperation.
 

AlphaGarage

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Muriatic acid can be found at many hardware stores and also at pool supply stores.

It's difficult to tell you how much to use and at what dilution. It depends on several factors from the weather to the ingredients used when the concrete was mixed.

Before you use it be sure to read instructions and warnings and follow them to a "t".

If you're like me every now and then you open a new product and toss aside the instruction, you find it a challenge to figure out how to use it on your own. Muriatic acid is not one of those fly-it-by-the-seat-of-your-pants type of products.

Used improperly it can damage property beyond the surface you apply it to, it can destroy landscaping, it can negatively affect subsequent coatings, and it can cause permanent injuries and health problems.

Despite all that it's used all the time to etch concrete, you just need to be informed and careful when using it.
 
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mike_c70

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I did use the search, went through 11+ pages of this forum with no real answer to my question.

As far as dilution is concerned, some people use different mixes so that doesn't really help me.

What I want to know is how to clean it up? I know powerwashing is a must. But where does the water/acid mixture go? Do you wet vac it or do you just squeegee it out to the lawn? I heard also about using baking soda, is that to be used to neutralize the acid?
 

Dave88LX

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Invest in a good filtering mask, that gas that it gives off is NASTY. Maybe want to get some rubber booties too, you're sneakers are going to be soaking wet.
 

Fuller

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I did use the search, went through 11+ pages of this forum with no real answer to my question.

As far as dilution is concerned, some people use different mixes so that doesn't really help me.

What I want to know is how to clean it up? I know powerwashing is a must. But where does the water/acid mixture go? Do you wet vac it or do you just squeegee it out to the lawn? I heard also about using baking soda, is that to be used to neutralize the acid?

The removal problem is one of the reasons I don't acid wash anymore. I work on a lot of jobs with pavers so rinsing it down the driveway is out. I've ruined a number of wet vacs too but they're almost a throw away item if you do enough business (not so much if you're DYI).

My epoxy supplier swears by it but I hate the whole process. I'm interested in any solutions to the problem too.
 

Vicegrip

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First rule and one to never break. Always Add Acid. Don't put water in straight acid. Protect your eyes. Wear a respirator unless there is abundant flowing fresh air. Keep a garden hose at the ready to wash acid or acid mix of you or anything else it gets on that it shouldn't.

Add the acid to the clean water. You want to add a little acid to your mop/slop bucket 1/2 full of water and then test it on the cement. If it does nothing add some more acid to the water and test again. Keep adding small amounts and testing until you get light white foam with very little to no white smoke. Wash the floor with this strength solution. The acid will etch the floor and as it does it will chemically change from an acid to a salt. When it does this it will stop working and you will see no action. Keep adding more solution to the floor to keep the visible action going. don't push dead etch water around. A right strength mix will it do nothing after a couple of min at best. Keep adding more fresh solution as you go. I like to use a mop they work better than most brooms at low concentrations. I use a stiff broom during the final rinse clean phase.

Too weak. No foaming action. No eching.
Just right. Light white foaming, the bubbles break and there are no blobs of thick foam remaining. Almost no stink. Wear a mask regardless unless there is lots of air flow.
Slightly too strong or for hard to etch spots. White foam with slight white smoke as the foam forms and bubbles.
Real strong. Thick white to yellow foam and white smoke.
Too strong for cleaning floors. Thick yellow foam abundant smoke and strong stink.
Straight up. Thick yellow foam yellow to white smoke, foam lingers. This will eat into the surface enough to weaken the surface layers and reduce coating adhesion.

How to keep the eching solution from eating stuff you don't want it to.

1. Wet other surfaces down before hand. Dry surfaces etch or get damaged more easily than wet.
2. Use only the lowest strength you need and no more. Take yer' time and give the acid time do the work. Weaker and longer is better than stronger and shorter.
3. Let the solution go fully inactive before rinsing. The acid will combine and as it turns into salts it will stop fizzing and etching. You can walk barefoot in combined out acid that would have stung your feet 10 min earlier.
4. Baking soda. If you have a surface you don't want touched but need to run spent etch water over after the etching is done you can shut the etch water down fully with baking soda. Do the floor with the weakest solution that gets results. Let the acid combine out and then for added safety sprinkle baking soda all over the floor and push it around with a push broom. Slop it in the puddles and then push the puddles around all over the entire surface. Get baking soda water on all treated surfaces. Now you can rinse the solution away without etching anything else. For plants that are down stream flood with lots of water. LOTS OF WATER. Let the water run to dilute the salts.

Muratic acid will not eat you like in the movies unless you are made from rotten cement.
 
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AlphaGarage

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We do offer a non-toxic, environmentally green, etching solution that contains no toxic or hazardous air pollutants. It's water based, non flammable, low odor, and easy to clean with soap and water or denatured alcohol. It's also a gel, so it's easier to apply and control than liquids.

Those are its upsides. The downside? Its price.

OrganiPrep 921 is called for in places like animal labs, patient care facilities, zoos, spaces where there is a lot of of metal (aircraft hangers, car collections, machine shops, electronic assembly plants, other manufacturing facilities), or homes & businesses where someone doesn't deal well with the strong acid odor of muriatic acid and other harsh chemicals.
 
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Jaguar Fan

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First rule and one to never break. Always Add Acid. Don't put water in straight acid. Protect your eyes. Wear a respirator unless there is abundant flowing fresh air. Keep a garden hose at the ready to wash acid or acid mix of you or anything else it gets on that it shouldn't.

Add the acid to the clean water. You want to add a little acid to your mop/slop bucket 1/2 full of water and then test it on the cement. If it does nothing add some more acid to the water and test again. Keep adding small amounts and testing until you get light white foam with very little to no white smoke. Wash the floor with this strength solution. The acid will etch the floor and as it does it will chemically change from an acid to a salt. When it does this it will stop working and you will see no action. Keep adding more solution to the floor to keep the visible action going. don't push dead etch water around. A right strength mix will it do nothing after a couple of min at best. Keep adding more fresh solution as you go. I like to use a mop they work better than most brooms at low concentrations. I use a stiff broom during the final rinse clean phase.

Too weak. No foaming action. No eching.
Just right. Light white foaming, the bubbles break and there are no blobs of thick foam remaining. Almost no stink. Wear a mask regardless unless there is lots of air flow.
Slightly too strong or for hard to etch spots. White foam with slight white smoke as the foam forms and bubbles.
Real strong. Thick white to yellow foam and white smoke.
Too strong for cleaning floors. Thick yellow foam abundant smoke and strong stink.
Straight up. Thick yellow foam yellow to white smoke, foam lingers. This will eat into the surface enough to weaken the surface layers and reduce coating adhesion.

How to keep the eching solution from eating stuff you don't want it to.

1. Wet other surfaces down before hand. Dry surfaces etch or get damaged more easily than wet.
2. Use only the lowest strength you need and no more. Take yer' time and give the acid time do the work. Weaker and longer is better than stronger and shorter.
3. Let the solution go fully inactive before rinsing. The acid will combine and as it turns into salts it will stop fizzing and etching. You can walk barefoot in combined out acid that would have stung your feet 10 min earlier.
4. Baking soda. If you have a surface you don't want touched but need to run spent etch water over after the etching is done you can shut the etch water down fully with baking soda. Do the floor with the weakest solution that gets results. Let the acid combine out and then for added safety sprinkle baking soda all over the floor and push it around with a push broom. Slop it in the puddles and then push the puddles around all over the entire surface. Get baking soda water on all treated surfaces. Now you can rinse the solution away without etching anything else. For plants that are down stream flood with lots of water. LOTS OF WATER. Let the water run to dilute the salts.

Muratic acid will not eat you like in the movies unless you are made from rotten cement.

These are great instructions...

In addition... I've found 2 different common muriatic acid strengths. The most widely available is for swimming pools. I've found stuff in the paint section of a hardware store (Orchard Supply Hardware) that is twice as strong. So... Vicegrip's advice about dilution works regardless of what strength you purchase.

In my case, with desert conditions (9% humidity), I had to work to keep slab wet with water/acid solution -- the slab would just dry after a couple minutes (even though I flooded the slab ahead of time to get it wet), and the directions I received said don't let the slab get dry.

Judging by Vicegrip's description, I probably used too strong a solution -- the fumes caused some paint on the drywall to "melt away", as I recall (although maybe it was small splashes of acid -- I was using an old fashioned plastic flower watering can to sprinkle the mixture on the slab).

In my case, just flooding / powerwashing with water was sufficient without neutralizing with baking soda. The "spent" solution from the slab went down the concrete driveway to the concrete gutter to a storm drain without leaving a mark .

I had some "spent" solution end up on some plants on either side of the driveway. I gave surrounding plants lots of water just in case - nothing died.

Oh - I used rubber boots during the process "just in case."

Afterwards, powerwash, powerwash, powerwash and powerwash some more .. anyway that's what I did.

Take some before & after pictures & let us know how it turns out!
 
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mike_c70

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Thanks everyone. So basically what I'm hearing is that once the muriatic acid does its thing, it neutralizes itself into a salt essentially. Is this along with the concrete the "dust" that everyone keeps talking about?

So baking soda is to ensure that the solution is neutral.

Oh yeah, when putting down the muriatic acid, I just let it sit right? No scrubbing?

BTW, do any of those citrus cleaners or simple green do anything?
 
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mike_c70

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We do offer a non-toxic, environmentally green, etching solution that contains no toxic or hazardous air pollutants. It's water based, non flammable, low odor, and easy to clean with soap and water or denatured alcohol. It's also a gel, so it's easier to apply and control than liquids.

Those are its upsides. The downside? Its price.

OrganiPrep 921 is called for in places like animal labs, patient care facilities, zoos, spaces where there is a lot of of metal (aircraft hangers, car collections, machine shops, electronic assembly plants, other manufacturing facilities), or homes & businesses where someone doesn't deal well with the strong acid odor of muriatic acid and other harsh chemicals.

How much of a difference in price are we talking about here?
 
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AlphaGarage

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OrganiPrep is $70/gallon.

"Oh yeah, when putting down the muriatic acid, I just let it sit right? No scrubbing?"

It will work better if you take a brush with stiff bristles and work the acid into the concrete. First, be sure the bristles don't react to the acid. Natural ones usually don't.

"BTW, do any of those citrus cleaners or simple green do anything?"

Not for etching purposes. The acid works by dissolving the calcium in the concrete mix, but it won't dissolve some of the other material, so it leaves little hills and valleys. That profile gives the epoxy something to mechanically grab onto. And for those epoxies that also chemically bond to the substrate (like Woverine's BondTite), the hills and valleys offer more exposed surface area for the chemical bonds to form.
 
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Mlynch

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First rule and one to never break. Always Add Acid.

I am going to have to disagree... You should avoid acid wash/etching at all cost! It is much better, as well as highly recommended, to use a mechanical means in preparing the concretes surface for coating. Acid will not removes paints and sealers and it also creates several other problems (i.e. moisture and -ph in slab). If a DIY guy must do it himself he is much better renting the proper grinding equipment(sometimes hard to find) or just subbing that part of the job out (less aggrevating sometimes comperable in price to renting). There are also many advantages to manualy grinding vs acid etching... for example you can acheive a better profile for adhesion and also fix many sins in beat up concrete...

Lets no forget the no matter how great of a coating you are using its longevity lies in the prep work... PREP IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE JOB!!!
 
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Vicegrip

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Disagree with what? I made no comment on which surface prep method was best. The question presented by the original poster was about dilution rates for acid etching. I responded with some general info on acid handling and methods of obtaining reasonable dilution rates. The Always Add Acid rule is regarding mixing acid not what you are using it on. You do not want to add water or anything else to full strength acid as the water might have a reactive contaminant in it. My post had nothing to do with which method is best as this was outside the original question.

I will agree that prep is key.
 

Mlynch

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I am sorry I read your post as always acid wash... no disrespect meant.

It is my belief, however, that we should not promote acid etching in any way shape or form.
 

04 Navi

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I am sorry I read your post as always acid wash... no disrespect meant.

It is my belief, however, that we should not promote acid etching in any way shape or form.

I am curious about your agenda. Is it for enviromental reasons or for the best metheod available or for safety?

Also you mentioned the moisture of the slab after etching. For water based epoxies that is not a problem as they are not moisture sensitive nor is the Wolverine primer. As it is, I betcha most people will pressure wash even after they do a mechanical prep.

Hey I am not trying to bust your chops, but acid etching is a very cost effective way of preparing a floor for epoxy. For people on a budget that is very important.
 

Mlynch

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I am curious about your agenda. Is it for enviromental reasons or for the best metheod available or for safety?

Also you mentioned the moisture of the slab after etching. For water based epoxies that is not a problem as they are not moisture sensitive nor is the Wolverine primer. As it is, I betcha most people will pressure wash even after they do a mechanical prep.

Hey I am not trying to bust your chops, but acid etching is a very cost effective way of preparing a floor for epoxy. For people on a budget that is very important.

No specific agenda other than the best way to do this... I dont want to step on any toes but waterbased products are about useless when compared to 100 percent solids technology but i wont get into that right now. I will say if you are taking the time to do it and research this then do it right for gods sakes and use the best... this is assuming you are using professional grade products (not water base)

First, chemically most polyurethan/ polyurea products will have microscopic bubbles, milking, or just plain foam with improper moisture exposure. solvent based and 100 percent solids epoxy does not like water either. outgasing, lifting and whatnot.

Second, if there is too much moisture (any really) in the slab you are not going to get the absorption of the product (resin) into the slab. The best bond is a mechanical bond... with open pours the resin absorbes into the slab then cures giving a mechanical bond so you will literally rip up chunks of concrete before the product peels. This is why profesional installed floors have warranties from 5-15 years. If the pours are full of moisture then it is not full of product/resin and you are getting less surface area for adhesion. It just sits on the surface.

Third, proper grinding absolutely does not require pressure washing... you will just make more of a mess then dry vacuum and a blower.

Four, when has budget had anything to do with the RIGHT way... its a small expense in the long run and it get rid of loads of potential problems. Most suppliers (of 100 percent solid epoxy and polyurea technology) if you read the fine print in their warranty will only warranty the product if it is dry ground and prepped in this way. That being said you can get away with using improper methods and you may not see any issues... some people do NO prep at all and dont see problems! However, if you use water i highly recommen letting your slab dry out completly.

I am not busting any chops either but i do this for a living and there are no (true) professional installers out there using pressure washing as prep. All franchises and a majority of manufacterers require dry mechanical grinding. No shot blast and no water if you want a warrantied instalation.

Here is a analogy for you... painting a car. Just because you might be able to get away with $4 a can spray paint doesnt make it right just because it is more economical. or just because you could paint it without sanding and priming first doesnt make it the right way... i am sure you see where i am going
 

Vicegrip

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I used a water based over the counter system, followed the directions and it has held up well for 5 years so far in a working shop. Total cost was a single digit % of a pro installed system and took me about 10 easy pace hours over two days. I also manage a 150 service bay dealership that has a 2 story service shop in one area. The upper story has 45 service bays and has a pro installed 100% solids coating. It too has held up. Both have some chip outs from tools or in my case sections of cage pipe falling and digging up chunks of the base material. My doomed worthless thin water based system holds up better against welding slag and plasma cutter discharge than the thicker systems for sure. I was at another home shop and his thick pro installed floor was cratered with slag pits from the same process that I also use while cage building. With my floor the spray out from my plasma cutter just bounces a time or two and cools leaving no noted marks and does not stick at all. With his it sticks and burns leaving a rough surface that dirt sticks to. I noted this with the dealership system as well. I think the thin system transfers the heat to the concrete faster and this keeps it from scorching.

Painting the "Farm Use" truck with a $6000 base coat clear coat hand rubbed Imron paint job is not smart just because you can afford it. In fact it just might prevent you from using it to its fullest potential as you will be worried about the paint and treat it with undue care and reserve. I on the other hand can work unencumbered with worrying about the floor and focus just a little bit more on the job at hand. ;)
 
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Mlynch

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I used a water based over the counter system, followed the directions and it has held up well for 5 years so far in a working shop. Total cost was a single digit % of a pro installed system and took me about 10 easy pace hours over two days. I also manage a 150 service bay dealership that has a 2 story service shop in one area. The upper story has 45 service bays and has a pro installed 100% solids coating. It too has held up. Both have some chip outs from tools or in my case sections of cage pipe falling and digging up chunks of the base material. My doomed worthless thin water based system holds up better against welding slag and plasma cutter discharge than the thicker systems for sure. I was at another home shop and his thick pro installed floor was cratered with slag pits from the same process that I also use while cage building. With my floor the spray out from my plasma cutter just bounces a time or two and cools leaving no noted marks and does not stick at all. With his it sticks and burns leaving a rough surface that dirt sticks to. I noted this with the dealership system as well. I think the thin system transfers the heat to the concrete faster and this keeps it from scorching.

Painting the "Farm Use" truck with a $6000 base coat clear coat hand rubbed Imron paint job is not smart just because you can afford it. In fact it just might prevent you from using it to its fullest potential as you will be worried about the paint and treat it with undue care and reserve. I on the other hand can work unencumbered with worrying about the floor and focus just a little bit more on the job at hand. ;)


well you know what they say about opinions (kidding)... i will say a couple things and then digress from the subject. Not all polymers are created equal and while i have never had direct experience in a welding situation i can put a lighter (and hold it) to my standard polyurea and epoxy coatings and not have any issues whatsoever. Further if it was spec'ed out on a job they have high heat resistant epoxy and polyurea formulations. Something to keep in mind if you guys ever redoe any of it...

As far as the water based vs whatever argument... i have been using this stuff for years and its no secret that the water based stuff (while coming a long way in recent years) just doesnt compare... its pure numbers. Compresive strength, Tensile Strength, abrasion resistance, elongation its all on paper for everysingle product... just ask for the spec sheets. If that doesnt convince you real world samples half and half shootouts... its all been done.

As to the farm truck... why paint it at all? why coat the concrete at all? it may just stop you from using the floor to its full potential. if you are going to do it why do a half assed job.

You bring up some good thought provoking issues though Vice... i welcome these opinions it helps us all grow
 
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mike_c70

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Thanks for all the input.

It looks like the general consensus is prepartion is absolutely critical, by whatever method that may be.

For me, obviously I'm worried about the environment (hence my question) so I will try and go about the dry way first if possible. Does Home Depot or Lowes rent these things out?
 

Mlynch

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sometimes rentals are hard to find... home depot has machines but for removing paint and the like they are about worthless. If there is no paint or anything on the concrete then a janitorial low speed machine with a sanding disk will work fine to scuff the surface. It might be wise to check w/ some local contractors (everyone is slow w/ the economy) and see if you can get a decent deal on the prep it may just be worth it to let someone else deal with it... Good luck
 

Floorguy

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Mlynch,

I agree with the majority of your post but must disagree with the no shotblast comment. No busting chops intended. I also do this for a living and in my opinion shot blasting is the best prep inthe hands of a skilled user. It leaves the best profile and that is what mechanical bond is all about.
 

Mlynch

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Mlynch,

I agree with the majority of your post but must disagree with the no shotblast comment. No busting chops intended. I also do this for a living and in my opinion shot blasting is the best prep inthe hands of a skilled user. It leaves the best profile and that is what mechanical bond is all about.

You are right about the profile, however the industry is moving away from shotblasting because of the vertical impact of the beads. This supposedly weakens the top layer of concrete (lowers tensile strength)that is left because of micro cracks/fractures. It is like hitting the concrete with thousands of small hamers whereas grinding is a horizontal process... This all theoretically makes it so the coating can fail prematurely because of the concrete degredation.

I personally dont have an opinion on shotblasting but i do know that the majority (my guess is over half)of the epoxy/poly manufacters are requireing grinding and not shot blast for them to warranty the installation. I am sure some will still use shotblasting though for years and years to come. Some say this is just propaganda from the influx of grinder manufacters in the past 4 or 5 years but the logic seams sound on paper.

Trends change... shot blasting has worked decent for years(a lot of them). Everyone is just starting to beleive that it is not the best way. A little food for thought... blasttrack one of the big names in shotblast technology has came out with their own line of diamond grinders. If their shot blast technology was supperior then why?

As far as best profile... Well you can acheive some very aggressive texture/profile through grinding with a planetary especially w/ 24 grit or pcd diamonds. I would say this is a toss up between the two. But for thin mill coatings a lot of times shotblasting will be TOO aggressive in profile. A grinder is much easier to control and change profile in my experience.
 

Vicegrip

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What opinion? I relayed my real world experience, not my opinions. Opinions are like a$$ho!es everyone has one and all but yours stink. ;)

I did not say that that the thin water based is better equal or worse than 100% solids systems. I am saying that for 8% or less of the pro installed cost I got 100% of what I was looking for and it has met my expectations in every measure. I needed a floor that was easy to clean up spills from and did not shed concrete dust all over.

Now some opinions. You are right, it is in the number$ $ome time$. Don't get oversold by salesmen or the opinions of others as to what you need. I paint the Farm Use truck so it will not rust out. I don't need the paint to last 200 years or win awards in the local show and bare metal will rust out before I am done with the truck. I measure the needs and costs of things and act accordingly. If I want to make the floor look new again I can clean it and lay another coat down every ten years or so as or if needed. The added coats will be more than free as the money I did not spend the very first time around earned interest. In the mean time the pro floor is only getting more worn looking if it is in a working shop. If it was not in a working shop was it overkill? Saying the costs can be spread out over time to make them look less expensive is false in a way. The cost of money needs to be calculated as well. That money is no longer yours the day you paid the bill and not working on your behalf earning interest for you any longer.

I selected the coating for my floor based on need not image or what someone told me I needed. I don't get all warm inside for a mirror like shop floor. I see floor that is ether slippery or will show every action you make. I like to see real shops in "motion" and not a static display of sorts.
Now that the latest home design kick is garages there are many that are so carefully put together and polished that you are reluctant to actually use it. Colorful tools on hooks with no regard to their use there just because they look right. My shop is for making and fixing things not posing for pix. Your garage is for what ever you like it to be for. to each there own. All I was saying is don't discount out of hand a method or system as useless unless you know all the variables in the intended use.
 
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