Neckties and table saws are ok in California

[trainer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PzzaEsgzcWY#!


Some legislator in California wants Table saws to come with more safety built in.

He demonstrates the features he wants added to table saws while wearing a necktie and no eye protection.....

 

[A_Pmech]

Looks like the Stephen Gass aka "Saw Stop" is at it again...

He has been lobbying OSHA and various other government entities for years to get laws passed requiring his product be installed on table saws. Naturally, there is no competing technology that is not covered by the Gass' patents, so he would essentially have a government-mandated monopoly.

The mere fact that Gass is doing everything in his power to force his product down people's throats, especially business owners, has ensured that I will NEVER purchase the product.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/03/business/la-fi-sawstop-bill-20120703

 

[rslaback]

He's wearing a ring as well if you want to get picky.

I think the technology present in saw stop is legitimate and reasonable. I would even go so far as to say that I would favor a law requiring it. I look at it a lot like whoever first invented the seat belt or air bag. I don't blame the entrepreneur because no one else created the same thing to compete with them.

Of course my view might be a bit different than most since I teach kids age 13 to 18 to use it.

 

[BWS]

Its funny.....think its OWWM that has implimented a Sawstop program in its forum.It basically automatically kills any thread that discusses them.

I think the guy is an ambulance chasin POS.......just sayin.And theres other,WAY less intrusive ways of accomplishing this task.So even getting past the guys motives/character traits........his engineering is pretty much chit.

 

[Kevin54]

I'm all for safety, but somewhere the line has to be drawn. And I'm in total agreement with A_P, that Gass is forcing his product down peoples throats. I'm waiting on one of those saw stops to fail, then see how big the recall is and how large the lawsuit will be.

People need to use common sense, which they won't, but even in our shop, they have pushed safety to the point that the safety devices in themselves are dangerous. Guards for drill presses that now inhibit the sight of what you are doing. Guards and shields on lathes that if and when something goes wrong the guard itself becomes dangerous.

When there is sharp, high speed equipment, it is a given that somewhere stupidity will come into play and someone will get hurt. If you work around sheetmetal all day and use sharp cutters or rotating cutters, someone will get hurt eventually. If you put guards on machines that hinder the operation of the machine and the operator, the guards will be removed. Our shop along with 5S, along with HS&E (health safety & environmental) has put more stickers, warning, guards, bolted things down, to the point that it is just ridiculous. Yet every quarter they post how many free days from accidents we have had. Zero days because a temporary employee does not get counted if he gets hurt.

Getting off of my rant before I really get started.

 

[wedge40]

I have to agree with A_Pmech. This guy has been trying to make this mandatory for years. And with the monopoly he has he'd become a very rich man. Not sure when his patent runs out, but let see what saw manufactures come up with in a few years. Table saws like anything need to be treated with respect other wise accidents happen.

Wedge

 

[kert]

Looks like the Stephen Gass aka "Saw Stop" is at it again...

He has been lobbying OSHA and various other government entities for years to get laws passed requiring his product be installed on table saws. Naturally, there is no competing technology that is not covered by the Gass' patents, so he would essentially have a government-mandated monopoly.

The mere fact that Gass is doing everything in his power to force his product down people's throats, especially business owners, has ensured that I will NEVER purchase the product.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/03/business/la-fi-sawstop-bill-20120703

Might want to look into some other products you buy. I work for an automotive supplier and I can tell you we lobby the government for our technology, some of which seems a little silly. Corporations are in business to maximize profits BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.

While I don't agree with a mandate for Saw-Stop-like technology, my next table-saw will have it. If the only thing out there is the Saw-Stop, I'll buy one, but if somebody else offers equivalent technology, I'll weigh my options. In the end it is pretty cheap insurance considering the risks.

I guess I am like many motorcyclists who wear helmets but oppose helmet laws.

 

[Dan in Pasadena]

If you're typing a response to this thread and you still have all ten fingers, I suspect your opinion may be quite different than the person who no longer has them.

I'm not much in favor of being FORCED to use much of anything but there are plenty of responsible machine operators that have lost digits. Though; of course, this is in addition to idiots that operate equipment in many unsafe ways. But to call the inventor of this technology a piece of schit, ambulance chaser, yada, yada, to me says more about the name caller than the individual he's talking about.

 

[Kevin C]

My friend who is a pro woodworker nicked his thumb trimming some molding.... Three months later he's still having issues. Compared to the medical bills and lost work time, I'm pretty sure the saws price is looking a lot more attractive. It's a numbers game... Get enough people using a tool and some of them are going to make a mistake.

Local trade schools has one. I think it should be mandatory for all schools. Pro's should get a medical insurance / workers comp insurance break or discount for owning one.

 

[Norcal]

The nanny's are at it again! What is the problem with using a little common sense? I am not giving up my 1973 model Unisaw, which is used w/o a guard. One thing I did notice is how excessively proud they had the blade above the stock being cut, that alone is stupid, but when your trying to make your case the only way is to to use the NBC "news" playbook & embellish things.

 

[tymbo]

I work for a large millwork shop that has about a dozen table saws- ALL of which are Sawstops.(except those that use power feeders.) From a business owners perspective, it is a no-brainer. The cost of one lost finger is WAY more expensive than the investment in these saws!
As for the people bad mouthing the inventor- Grow up! He is simply playing the required game that is "dealing with the government". He offered the technology to the manufacturers first- and was turned down cold. The reason- if we installed this technology on ours saws, we would be admitting that they are dangerous, and that would open us up to liability!

As for the monopoly issue: He couldn't sell his technology to other manuf. so he designs from scratch, manuf. and sells a brand new saw with his safety features(plus many others). He has proven in the marketplace that his design works, and that people will PAY for safety. In my opinion he has put his money where his mouth is, and it has shaken up the industry and gotten people to take notice.

Tim

 

[A_Pmech]

I'm all for the technology. I actually think it's a great invention and a very smart one.

I'm 100% against him using the government to shove it down our throats. It's un-American to the very core. He's greedy, plain and simple. It's not enough for him to have a 20% market share. He wants ALL of the market and the only way he can do that is to make the government pass laws favorable to his invention. I have a problem with that because it is greed like his that is destroying the American economy.

 

[signcrafter]

If I owned a business with employees I would probably buy sawstop just because if I hire someone and they don't use common sense it will cost a lot more in workman's comp. As a DIY homeowner I would be pissed if my state made me buy a sawstop saw. I use common sense and am safe. I realise an accident could happen at any second but an accident can happen anywhere.

In the video linked to by the OP they say there is 37 or so patents on saw stop like devices and that manufacturers won't have to use the sawstop on their saw. It also says that the technology will only add 75 dollars to a saw. From what I know sawstop is the only saw on the market that has this technology and it costs a lot more than 75 dollars more than a normal saw. For the homeowner a sawstop isn't practical. Yes a set of ten digits is worth the price of the sawstop but the average guy can't afford a 1500 dollar saw. I have a 600 dollar bosch 4100 and it's a high end portable saw and I had a hard time buying that, it helped it was on sale for 420 bucks. But if a table saw cost a minimum of 1500 dollars I would be using a circular saw for all my cuts or buying a used saw. IF and I see this as a huge IF manufacturers could offer that technology for an extra 75 bucks I would pay for it. But I guess I don't see the technology being that cheap like they claim. I'm not sure if I agree with it being shoved down my throat but on the other hand if the technology will save on disability claims that the state is paying for due to injuries it might not be a bad thing. This puts the cost on the consumer and us tax payers won't have to pay disability on an injury that this prevents when someone doesn't use common sense and safety by themselves.

 

[green.bubbly]

I would imagine there are more, almost as serious potential injuries from razor blade knives than from table saws. Are we going to see automatically retracting razor blade knives in the near future?

Most decent table saws are also made to last a lifetime. There are probably millions of Jet, Grizzly and other branded tables saws in garages right now. How are we going to address them?

It is cool technology but there is a lot of cool safety tech out there and I do not hink we should all be forced to buy.

 

[KU_MechE]

Seatbelts, airbags, tire pressure monitors, blinkers, brake lights, headlights, etc are all safety related components on a car that are mandated by govt. You all accept this without complaint. just FYI.

I'd also point out that most codes and standards are written by those who stand to benefit the most from them.

 

[Hephaestus29]

I'm not quite sure why this thread hasn't been locked or deleted but after my post it may be or my post might be.

BECAUSE there are a lot of politics involved with this story ! and did anyone notice that the guy wearing the tie is a DEMOCRAT and probably a liberal too. They are the ones that are trying to force laws and other things down peoples throats. It's not enough that something might be good enough for them but they must force everyone else to do it too & not let the people choose on their own.

It is a good product but introducing a law to force it upon people is not.

 

[rslaback]

I would imagine there are more, almost as serious potential injuries from razor blade knives than from table saws. Are we going to see automatically retracting razor blade knives in the near future?

Most decent table saws are also made to last a lifetime. There are probably millions of Jet, Grizzly and other branded tables saws in garages right now. How are we going to address them?

It is cool technology but there is a lot of cool safety tech out there and I do not hink we should all be forced to buy.

When was the last time someone cut their finger off with a razor blade?

 

[signcrafter]

I'm not quite sure why this thread hasn't been locked or deleted but after my post it may be or my post might be.

BECAUSE there are a lot of politics involved with this story ! and did anyone notice that the guy wearing the tie is a DEMOCRAT and probably a liberal too. They are the ones that are trying to force laws and other things down peoples throats. It's not enough that something might be good enough for them but they must force everyone else to do it too & not let the people choose on their own.

It is a good product but introducing a law to force it upon people is not.

The bill passed the assembly 64-4, according to wikipedia there are 28 republicans in the california assembly. So I would say it was a bipartisain support. But you can start throwing stones to get this thread locked on purpose instead of contributing something of worth to the thread.

 

[draglink]

Why not just let the market dictate if the safety saws are any good? why does it have to be directed by the gov't?

This country is changing for the worse slowly, law by law

 

[Drunken Yak inc]

Seatbelts, airbags, tire pressure monitors, blinkers, brake lights, headlights, etc are all safety related components on a car that are mandated by govt. You all accept this without complaint. just FYI.

Wrong, I don't believe any of those should be mandated, yet I'm a fan of all of those technologies. It's not the government's job to protect us from our own stupidity.

 

[snorky18]

If you're typing a response to this thread and you still have all ten fingers, I suspect your opinion may be quite different than the person who no longer has them.

I still have all 10, but one has a nasty scar, minor long-term nerve damage, and a bit of missing mass, courtesy of the combination of a lapse of attention for just a second combined with a table saw.

I very much like the idea of the sawstop. And the product itself, at least the cabinet saw, is a really nice saw. And if I were in the market for such a thing, and could afford it, I would probably buy a cabinet model sawstop.

But, that being said, I am completely against the man trying to force his product onto anyone. Let the market (and cabinet owners) determine if it is a worthwhile feature.

You can mitigate risk, but you can't child proof a wood or machine shop completely, and I think to do so would foster a lack of personal responsibility; a responsibility that I think is needed but missing in so many aspects of society.

 

[dlenkewich]

Seatbelts, airbags, tire pressure monitors, blinkers, brake lights, headlights, etc are all safety related components on a car that are mandated by govt. You all accept this without complaint. just FYI.

I'd also point out that most codes and standards are written by those who stand to benefit the most from them.

Very few people didn't complain about these. Airbags can also cause serious injury to occupants.

And lights? Come on. You're grasping at straws now.

Apparantly no one uses push sticks anymore. Personally, I've never had a problem keeping my fingers away from the blades, I've always up held a very healthy respect for dangerous power tools... If you've gotten you finger cut off the problem is you were being careless. It's really just as simple as that.

 

[ihredo4]

To me this guy Das Williams belongs in the same group of people led by Sarah Brady. The blind leading the blind. If he was an authority on this subject he would know better than to wear the dangling tie while at the table saw. Just like you only have the blade up enough to clear the stock and you don't wear jewelry while operating it also.

Not a surprise that Uncle Sam is trying to eliminate natural selection

 

[Dan in Pasadena]

The nanny's are at it again! What is the problem with using a little common sense?

See and I was going to post, "The flat Earth-ers" or the "Head-in-theSand-ers" are at it again. Your comment presupposes that if you've ever been injured by a power tool you weren't using "common" sense. Thereby saying its your own fault, you got what you deserved, etc. does anyone DESERVE to lose fingers? (Well, besides pedophiles I mean!). I'm NEVER going to say someone who suffered a maiming injury "deserved" it, c'mon!

Anyway, I know these comments are borderline political but my point is why NOT use a technology that will prevent gross maiming injuries, and ESPECIALLY in an educational environment? I don't get that mentality AT ALL.

PS: I'm not supporting that this technology be mandatory, but I'm saying there are situations where it oughta be (education) and I'm not on border with the idea of the government protecting me fron myself. But I AM on board with the government attempting to protect from some other dumb SOB - read, mandatory headlights, turn indicators, etc. and I AM on board with attempting to keep me from having to should the burden when someone else does something STUPID like riding a motorcycle w/o a helmet and becoming brain injured.

 

[Drunken Yak inc]

See and I was going to post, "The flat Earth-ers" or the "Head-in-theSand-ers" are at it again. Your comment presupposes that if you've ever been injured by a power tool you weren't using "common" sense. Thereby saying its your own fault, your get what you deserve, etc. does anyone DESERVE to lose fingers? (Well, besides pedophiles I mean!)

Anyway, I know these comments are borderline political but my point is why NOT use a technology that will prevent gross maiming injuries, and ESPECIALLY in an educational environment? I don't get that mentality AT ALL.

Yes, it would be your fault for getting a finger cut off. You and you alone are responsible for your safety. You will NEVER make a saw (or even a screwdriver lol) completely safe regardless of how many safety devises you use.

 

[draglink]

Anyway, I know these comments are borderline political but my point is why NOT use a technology that will prevent gross maiming injuries, and ESPECIALLY in an educational environment? I don't get that mentality AT ALL.

Use it fine, DONT MANDATE IT

 

[flht1997]

The saw manufacturers opened themselves up for litigation when they turned Gass down on his technology.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/25130/man-wins-big-money-in-tablesaw-lawsuit
Laws need to be in place to protect people who cannot protect themselves, which in this case would be educational programs where minors are present. I teach in a high school and half our table saws are Sawstop and the others will be relaced by the end of next year. For personal use I feel you should have a choice, but for manufacturing or industrial use, some sort of flesh-sensing technology should be mandated.

 

[signcrafter]

Anyway, I know these comments are borderline political but my point is why NOT use a technology that will prevent gross maiming injuries, and ESPECIALLY in an educational environment? I don't get that mentality AT ALL.

I am not against this technology and I think it's a great idea for business' and schools(if that's what you mean by educational environment). The problem I have is that from what I have seen the saw stop is 1500 dollars and up. This makes it unaffordable for most homeowners, it's kind of like saying everyone in the state of California has to have a snap on tool box, just unreal thinking. Meaning this Gass guy has gotten the California Government to make owning a table saw unaffordable for most homeowners. IF they can make a sawstop feature for all saws that ONLY adds 75 dollars like they claimed in the video then it won't be so bad. BUT the cheapest saw I could find with the sawstop feature is around 1500 dollars! That's a lot of money for the guy that just wants to rip a few boards to improve his house.

 

[Souljer]

Hi,

What's the big deal with a politician wearing a tie, standing next to a saw that is not running? Who cares? He was not operating the saw. AND that is the least important issue brought up. Did you completely miss the point of the video?

I recall being taught years ago by a person with ten fingers to use another high tech safety device as a way to keep you fingers attached to your hands and prevent injuries, a Push-Stick. About .05¢

I don't usually use a table saw but I do often use a band saw and have no problem setting things up so my fingers are not near or in-line with the blade and I'm pushing things through using something else besides my fingers, in case of who-knows-what.

The government mandating a law like this is bad because it is just one more excuse for people to be more lazy and not think for themselves. I'm sure every instruction manual for these saws says something like, do not push with your finger in-line with or near the spinning blade. Always use a push stick, etc.

Thousands of injuries? How many saws? How many perfectly safe and sensible operations? The saws did not attack these poor people, they used the machine in an unsafe way. Sometimes you get away with it, sometimes you don't.

The thing that should be mandated is EDUCATION! Mandate READING THE INSTRUCTIONS!

People should be taught how to use power tools in a safe way. Right now the focus is on the sale and people are sent home with potentially lethal tools that they really don't know how to use. Who reads all the fine print in the instructions? Bigger and clearer instructions would be a useful start.

Now if someone wants to get a saw with this technology I'd say that's sensible. Personally I would not mind having that on a saw and be very happy when it is never called on to function. Just like the airbags in my truck -(so far, knock on wood).

I also want to point out that the video states that the manufacturers are free to come up with their own version of this, they are not forced to use the Gass' SawStop brake. I also thought is was amusing that it's only going to be $75. more. Really, for how long? Now that they want to sell it, sure, it's almost free. If it's a law and you can't buy a saw without it, why should the price stay $75. extra?

Just some thoughts over lunch.

 

[56rpm]

So why is it this lieyer from Oregon is pushing his saw to be law in California (the land of fruits and nuts) instead of in his home state? Hmm..couldn't be the money.

 

[Zeke]

ibtl

I use a table saw in my work. I have a portable one and a shop model. No injuries other than getting kickback now and then and I mean once every 5 years. It happens.

Ca law states that all table saws must use a guard. Try cutting a dado or a less than total thickness cut and the guards supplied won't work. It has to be on an overhead arm. Try fitting that to a portable saw.

IOW, people who make laws don't use the tools. Some safety aids are no brainers. No way can you put a guard on the exposed drill bit, but someone will try to legislate that someday.

Get off my lawn.

 

[Hmrhead]

I would imagine there are more, almost as serious potential injuries from razor blade knives than from table saws. Are we going to see automatically retracting razor blade knives in the near future?

Most decent table saws are also made to last a lifetime. There are probably millions of Jet, Grizzly and other branded tables saws in garages right now. How are we going to address them?

It is cool technology but there is a lot of cool safety tech out there and I do not hink we should all be forced to buy.

Funny you should say that about box cutters/razor balde knives. I now work for one of the big box home improvement stores. (I handle the installed sales prijects) We are only allowed to carry/use box cutters with automatically retracting blades. Pocket knives are weapons and thus banned. Can't even use the lock back folding razor knives even though we sell thousands of them. Hassle to use as the auto retracting ones we have are cheap plastic and break easily.

 

[ZRX61]

People need to use common sense, which they won't, but even in our shop, they have pushed safety to the point that the safety devices in themselves are dangerous. Guards for drill presses that now inhibit the sight of what you are doing. Guards and shields on lathes that if and when something goes wrong the guard itself becomes dangerous.

I worked at one place that make electronic stuff. One of the jobs was using a very small shear to remove the legs on resistors & capacitors etc ready for putting on circuit boards. It barely nipped my finger one day, literally 2 drops of blood but some safety freak saw it. She forced me to report it, go to the company nurse for a ******* band aid etc (it had stopped bleeding almost immediately), then there was a safety review, machine was taken away to have a safety guard fitted etc. big ******* production.. then it came back a day later & was impossible to use at all. The only way to ensure it wouldn't nip a finger was to block the machine from being loaded with parts... So the parts just piled up... & up... & up... & up... by 10am there was a MOUNTAIN of backlog. Finally someone with a bit of common sense asked me what the problem was. I told him to show me how it was possible to use the machine the way it was now set up. He asked for a screwdriver, removed the *safety guard* & threw it in the trashcan next to the bench..

 

[losttechnician]

I would imagine there are more, almost as serious potential injuries from razor blade knives than from table saws. Are we going to see automatically retracting razor blade knives in the near future?

A few years ago, my company mandated the use of autoretracting razor blade knives. Well, they were just plastic razor knives with a spring that retracted the blade if you let off tension on the "open" slide. Worst of all, was that the point was ROUNDED, which made the knife almost useless for anything other than opening boxes.

Much of the use for us, is stripping wire, cutting insulation, and cutting on gasket material. This knife is useless for all of that. They came to their senses and no allow us the lock back razor knives, but we are required to wear "cut resistant" gloves anytime we use one of them.

Notice "resistant"....

 

[92GreenYJ]

Yeah I've seen some local law firm advertising a class action suit against all table saw manufacturers around here. Claiming they refuse to ad flesh detecting devices to them due to cost issues or some **** like that.

 

[NUTTSGT]

They throw out the statistic about how many people are injuried using table saws. Let them show the real numbers, how many saws are in use x number of people using them x how many cuts they have made with them. I bet you'll find the actual number of those injuried is infinately small.

I'll make one prediction, if this passes and a cheap saw price goes from $250 to 1500 dollars, the sales of table saws will go up in Oregon, Arizona and Nevada.

 

[Souljer]

Hi,

That's what I was trying to say. I guess I was not clear.
There are probably millions of saws out there. Hundreds of thousands of people using them everyday over the course of a year.
How many injuries vs. How many safe and sensible operations everyday for the last year? I bet it's safer than driving a car.

Obviously some people know how to follow the directions and keep themselves safe while operating a power tool.
Some don't read the directions and think they will just figure it out.
Well, I guess one way or another, they figured it out...

Get off my lawn.

Love that.

 

[olytdi]

It's difficult to find numbers that illustrate the costs. Most searches cite the Beureau of Labor Statistics and discuss 40,000 table saw-related ER visits in the US annually with about 4,000 of those resulting in amputations. Also commonly cited is that medical costs and costs to productivity is two billion dollars annually.

If these numbers are at all in the ballpark, it's a phenomenon not easily equaled by other traumas. Probably motor vehicles are the only other machines that can produce a greater quantity of significant trauma.

As a medical provider, I can assure you that saw accidents are not particularly rare in the ER or in Urgent Care. Looking at the numbers from that perspective makes consideration of technology that prevents inury a no brainer.

Yes, the idea that dummies should be penalized by donating digits is a point of view, but ask anyone who has lost a digit whether or not they "knew what they were doing." There are many many very experienced, trained, and competent people out there sporting fewer than ten fingers.

I agree that those who think they're beyond being on the receiving end of an amputation should continue to use their old-school saws -- especially in defiance of big brother. But, I only support that now that I will no longer have to subsidize thier ER visits as a result of the Affordable Care Act.

 

[signcrafter]

It's difficult to find numbers that illustrate the costs. Most searches cite the Beureau of Labor Statistics and discuss 40,000 table saw-related ER visits in the US annually with about 4,000 of those resulting in amputations. Also commonly cited is that medical costs and costs to productivity is two billion dollars annually.

If these numbers are at all in the ballpark, it's a phenomenon not easily equaled by other traumas. Probably motor vehicles are the only other machines that can produce a greater quantity of significant trauma.

As a medical provider, I can assure you that saw accidents are not particularly rare in the ER or in Urgent Care. Looking at the numbers from that perspective makes consideration of technology that prevents inury a no brainer.

Yes, the idea that dummies should be penalized by donating digits is a point of view, but ask anyone who has lost a digit whether or not they "knew what they were doing." There are many many very experienced, trained, and competent people out there sporting fewer than ten fingers.

I agree that those who think they're beyond being on the receiving end of an amputation should continue to use their old-school saws -- especially in defiance of big brother. But, I only support that now that I will no longer have to subsidize thier ER visits as a result of the Affordable Care Act.

Ya ok, as long as you subsidize the extra cost of the sawstop feature the next time I need to buy a new saw. Yes I'm sure 1500 dollars is well worth the cost to those that have lost a finger or five. But to make the average home owner who wants to rip a few pieces of wood 1500 dollars to do so is just not right.

 

[rslaback]

Ya ok, as long as you subsidize the extra cost of the sawstop feature the next time I need to buy a new saw. Yes I'm sure 1500 dollars is well worth the cost to those that have lost a finger or five. But to make the average home owner who wants to rip a few pieces of wood 1500 dollars to do so is just not right.

The average homeowner who needs to rip a few pieces of wood probably isn't buying a new saw. Find a cheapy on craiglist or have them cut it at the big box or lumber yard.

The guy who is going to be using it day in and day out would be the guy who buys the new saw. Since many here are using the argument that so many cuts are made just fine etc. How about you think of it this way. If you use the saw properly you will never trip the mechanism. In that case the difference between a regular saw and a saw with sensing technology would be less than $.01 per cut.

P.S. For many of you I suspect it was a straw man argument but, the guy does have competition.