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BIG generator.

Stuart in MN

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We're always talking about standby generators here so I thought people would find this interesting - I was looking at information on Caterpillar gensets this morning and noticed they have a new model, the C175-20.


Cat_C175-20sm.jpg


It has a 6456ci, 20 cylinder, quad turbocharged diesel engine with an output of 4 megawatts.

Maybe a little bigger than the average homeowner needs, but it's still pretty cool. :)

More information on the unit here: http://www.cat.com/power-generation/C175
 
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FJ 432

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Cool. I work for a company that installs generators (up to 2meg) for data centers. I have heard that oil platforms use these larger gens.
 

jeff000

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That's a big mofo. Gotta be LOUD!
I was around for the test fire of a pair of 2MW Cat's and it was like standing between a pair of locomotives.

That has to be what? a half million bucks?
 

tdkkart

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In the corner of our company parking lot stands a generator station that holds 10 1.6 megawatt Cat generators. Cooperative project with the power company, serves as backup emergency power for us, and the power company uses it to supplement their power on really hot days, or when they have any issues with their grid.
 

hammlm

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Holy smokes! That is Big! It uses 274 gallons of diesel per hour running full tilt.
 

rlitman

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That's a big mofo. Gotta be LOUD!
I was around for the test fire of a pair of 2MW Cat's and it was like standing between a pair of locomotives.

That has to be what? a half million bucks?

The mechanical noise has got to be awful, but it can be quieted well, and they do make "critical" mufflers for these.
When I open the sound enclosure on the generator at my work, I can't hear myself think, but when it's sealed up, it is quieter than the electric trains that go by.

It's got to be well over that pricetag.

I had done a little digging after Amazon's outage last week. Their data centers are 8MW a piece, and they probably have two of those in parallel to run each.
 

jeff000

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The mechanical noise has got to be awful, but it can be quieted well, and they do make "critical" mufflers for these.
When I open the sound enclosure on the generator at my work, I can't hear myself think, but when it's sealed up, it is quieter than the electric trains that go by.

It's got to be well over that pricetag.

I had done a little digging after Amazon's outage last week. Their data centers are 8MW a piece, and they probably have two of those in parallel to run each.

Any of the big gen sets I have been around have been for EM backup, no mufflers that I could see. Outside the concrete room they are in they are much quieter yes.

I called for pricing on this one, but the lady asked me if I was serious as it would take her some real work to get pricing on it, but said the 2MW CAT one she had on file was $199,380.** USD
 
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Stuart in MN

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Here's an standby setup for a power plant that one of the other guys in my office designed recently. Five Cat 3516's, 12.5MW total output. In this case the customer opted to have the generators custom painted black instead of Cat yellow, which came out pretty cool. The local Cat distributor included this photo in their 2012 calendar.

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rlitman

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Yeah, but that's 300000kWh per day, or just 8cents/kWh. Not bad really, when I'm paying more like 21cents/kWh here on Long Island for commercial rates.

Edit:
Whoops, got my numbers wrong. It is 300,000kWh per day for 12.5MW (I saw that number from the really sweet black painted setup above). The 8cents/kWh number seemed WAY too low for diesel.

The 274.6 gallons/hour is for the single 4MW Cat generator at the top of this thread.
That's 96,000 kWh per day, or 25cents/kWh. Ok, that sounds better for a turbo diesel at full load (depending on the fuel cost, it is at least in the ballpark).
 
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Highbeam

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Also got to remember that they aren't paying highway tax for their diesel fuel. I filled my off-road diesel barrel two weeks ago. Road diesel in my pickup was 3.85 and off-road (no raod tax but 6.5% sales tax) was 2.98 per gallon.

The gensets are most efficient when loaded heavily and constantly. The normal fluctuations in demand will do nothing but raise the cost per delivered kwH.

Still surprised how cheap the power is.
 

Gooch

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Also got to remember that they aren't paying highway tax for their diesel fuel. I filled my off-road diesel barrel two weeks ago. Road diesel in my pickup was 3.85 and off-road (no raod tax but 6.5% sales tax) was 2.98 per gallon.

The gensets are most efficient when loaded heavily and constantly. The normal fluctuations in demand will do nothing but raise the cost per delivered kwH.

Still surprised how cheap the power is.


I've done work at a large(10 story) data center, that had 2 Cat 16 Cyl Quad Turbo gen sets that would run on Fuel Oil aswell(building used to have large fuel oil boilers) IIRC the building had a 8,000 gal tank, we did the math for a buddy of mine that has a fuel oil furnace and that 8,000 gal would heat his home for over 10 years.
 

rlitman

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Yeah, all of these will run on #2 fuel oil too, but the lower lubricity reduces the lifetime of the engine.
Anyway, off-road diesel is only a few cents more than #2 fuel oil. The big drop in price from on-road diesel to #2 fuel heating oil, is almost entirely due to the road tax.
You're better off just filling your tanks with diesel, and taking the slight hit on your heating bill in that situation.
 

SuperSocket

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I have a 1mw unit and this one seems HUGE. I have not seen the 4mw yet, looks like it just came out.


Would love a pair of those 4's!
 

geotek

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I dont mean to hijack the thread, BUT....
I hear there is a place in Upstate NY that is referbing military surplus generators. Anyone now who they are?
 

Aceman

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We are doing a project right now with three of those big V-20 Cat's that run on methane taken from cow poop.

I'm told they are a million apiece. The radiators they use for these things are huge.

They're definitely in a league of their own.
 
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kald

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We are doing a project right now with three of those big V-20 Cat's that run on methane taken from cow poop.

I'm told they are a million apiece. The radiators they use for these things are huge.

They're definitely in a league of their own.

I'm surprised they are that cheap.
 
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Stuart in MN

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What are all these things powering? It seems like an enormous amount of power and money.

Aceman gave one good example. A similar application I've worked on before is running the generator off the methane generated from a landfill - the methane has to go someplace, so you may as well put it to use generating electricity.
 

Mongo68

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how about this http://www.turbinemarine.com/generators.html 1.1MW you can tow behind your pickup truck. Around half a mil if i remember correctly. Oil change only every 2000h - i like that.... 126GPH for 1.1MW load

I worked on a communications facility at a race track and we tested a similar one of those made by a different vendor. It was pretty cool to hear the turbines spool up like a chopper was going to take off when the load increased from the HVACs kicking on...
 

nehog

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I dont mean to hijack the thread, BUT....
I hear there is a place in Upstate NY that is referbing military surplus generators. Anyone now who they are?

Get on SteelSoldiers.com and in the Auxiliary Equipment forum post this request. Those guys will know instantly who can do that type of rebuild. Include as much information about the generator such as NSN and model info too. Most of us rebuild our own equipment--farming it out is expensive.

Just a heads up--military generators are not the most optimal way of creating electricity. They are very complex, under rated, and big/heavy. They require maintenance, and care, perhaps more than a commercial set would require. Spare parts can be a bit of a problem too, lots of parts, but most are very expensive when bought on the open market. Many buy two (identical) generators and use one for parts.

SmokStak.com also has a military generator forum, but everyone there is also on steelsoldiers.
 

rlitman

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how about this http://www.turbinemarine.com/generators.html 1.1MW you can tow behind your pickup truck. Around half a mil if i remember correctly. Oil change only every 2000h - i like that.... 126GPH for 1.1MW load

178 gallons of lube oil. $12*178 gallons of 15w40= $2136 just for the lube oil.

The turbo diesel oil change interval is usually around 600 hours, so that lubricating oil bill is for a month, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the fuel bill.

2000 hours is nice for the turbine, but the fuel efficiency of these small turbine generators is awful. The money saved from oil changes will quickly be spent 10 times over on fuel.
They're marketed for more harsh (drop from a plane, run on a rocking boat, etc.) environments than the diesel competition, and have an interesting niche.
 

rlitman

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not Amazon during a storm :/

Yeah, tell me about it. I've got a customer who was hit by that. I think the biggest issue was the fact that Amazon wasn't forthcoming about what happened until they released the post-mortem.
The lack of up to date information about the cloud status probably increased their time to recovery by several hours. That was a big "fall on your face" kind of failure. Perhaps worse than the actual power failure.

Amazon seems to be striving for a Tier 1 level infrastructure. It has batteries and generators, but no true redundancy. They expect the customer to handle failover by using the multiple availability zones provided by Amazon.
They give you a cloud, but if you want to me more than one raindrop in the cloud that eventually falls to the ground, you've got to do that part yourself.

Anyway, their particular issue was with generator paralleling. This is a much more difficult operation than just getting a generator running, and runs proportionality more risk.
 

Teken

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Yeah, tell me about it. I've got a customer who was hit by that. I think the biggest issue was the fact that Amazon wasn't forthcoming about what happened until they released the post-mortem.
The lack of up to date information about the cloud status probably increased their time to recovery by several hours. That was a big "fall on your face" kind of failure. Perhaps worse than the actual power failure.

Amazon seems to be striving for a Tier 1 level infrastructure. It has batteries and generators, but no true redundancy. They expect the customer to handle failover by using the multiple availability zones provided by Amazon.
They give you a cloud, but if you want to me more than one raindrop in the cloud that eventually falls to the ground, you've got to do that part yourself.

Anyway, their particular issue was with generator paralleling. This is a much more difficult operation than just getting a generator running, and runs proportionality more risk.

I would appreciate more insight on this if you don't mind. As I was just getting into reading about this whole ordeal with Amazon.

Teken . . .
 

ishiboo

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I would appreciate more insight on this if you don't mind. As I was just getting into reading about this whole ordeal with Amazon.

Teken . . .

My understanding was it was a basic failure of the generators to start and transfer load over in response to line power being lost. The UPSes took over and signaled but the generators never started.

Paralleling is pretty simple and something they don't even have to think about - it's handled easily by the controllers. Basically, the controller starts the generator and regulates the speed/etc. to produce a matching waveform (three actually, but they're tied together in time)... once everything matches it closes the contacts and continues to regulate speed to keep things matched.

My infrastructure is all on EC2, with redundant backups in two different locations besides Amazon.
 

Tscott

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My understanding was it was a basic failure of the generators to start and transfer load over in response to line power being lost. The UPSes took over and signaled but the generators never started.

Paralleling is pretty simple and something they don't even have to think about - it's handled easily by the controllers. Basically, the controller starts the generator and regulates the speed/etc. to produce a matching waveform (three actually, but they're tied together in time)... once everything matches it closes the contacts and continues to regulate speed to keep things matched.

My infrastructure is all on EC2, with redundant backups in two different locations besides Amazon.

Mot sure about the Amazon specific failure, but Ish is correct that paralleling is simple these days. We have a number of customers who do this. A third party vendor that specializes in such installs worked with the power company I work for to install about 10 units for this very purpose. I was in charge of the projects and it is pretty cool tech. As Ish stated, the gensets spool up to speed disconnected from the utility, they sync up and then close a switch once they are in phase. It only takes a few seconds if I recall (maybe 30?). So far we have had only miner issues with 1 unit, but it was a bit of an non-standard install so some issues were to be expected. As I recall, the stores using the generators were not charged a dime. The third party vendor uses the generators to lower the stores peak load under a special rate we have and they split the total power savings with the customer. As a bonus each store also can use the gensets as a backup in case of power outage or expected utility maintenance. I believe they pay per hour run in these instances, but that cost should easily be offset by power cost savings. It's a really neat deal, I tried to convince them to go small scale and do residential but they didn't go for it.

Tom
 

Teken

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Thank you both for the insight and clarification. I guess what surprised me is the fact someone as big as Amazon don't perform a monthly power transfer to confirm all is good? I know on our site(s) these power transfers and being on emergency back up are routine.

As much as I despise them (this includes the elevator lock out) it is something we must have on line 24/7/365 given our huge capacity along with global support structure.

For me, things like this just affirms the most basic things a person should do in their own homes (assuming) you can afford to do so.

Teken . . .
 

rlitman

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My understanding was it was a basic failure of the generators to start and transfer load over in response to line power being lost. The UPSes took over and signaled but the generators never started.

Paralleling is pretty simple and something they don't even have to think about - it's handled easily by the controllers. Basically, the controller starts the generator and regulates the speed/etc. to produce a matching waveform (three actually, but they're tied together in time)... once everything matches it closes the contacts and continues to regulate speed to keep things matched.

Amazon's report said that an "instability" in the generators kept two generators from paralleling and going online, and that the vendor (unnamed, but I have good reason to believe it is Cat) made a software change to the engine computers to allow for a wider range of operation.

Now, there's a bit you can read into that. At the data center I work at, we have two generators, and they parallel every time. It takes 14-16 seconds from power outage to full transfer. 5 of those seconds are the dead time mid-transfer, about 2-3 of those seconds are taken in paralleling, and the rest is in engine startup to a stable RPM. The engine startup is so fast, because we have battery warming pads and dual block heaters to keep the oil and coolant at the same elevated temperature, year round.

In my install, the paralleling is not necessary, as each generator is large enough to handle the entire critical load. This is Tier III/IV.
It sounds like (although they have not gone on the record on this matter) that Amazon is going for Tier I (zero redundancy). In that scenario, they would only have enough power to handle the critical load IF BOTH generators were paralleled. So there would be an enabling relay output from the computer to disable transfer until both generators are online.

Now, here's the thing about paralleling. It is real simple when the computer handles it, until it doesn't work. It may work 100 times in a row, and fail when you need it. And that's assuming they actually test it, and not just run engine exercises weekly.

I run a full transfer to generator, twice annually. But I also have hours of battery capacity. It also sounds like Amazon didn't have enough battery to leave time for hands on-site to react to the issue.

As for how to parallel. You aren't synchronizing three waveforms. The three waveforms will already be 120 degrees from each other, because of the windings. The first generator to reach RPM and have output voltage within the nominal range will close it's connection with the output bus.
The next generator will closely (but not exactly) match RPMs with the first. Because the RPM's are different, the phase angle between the two will rotate. As the angle crosses zero SLOWLY, the second generator will close it's connection to the output bus.

Now if there is an issue with EITHER engine maintaining the exact speed (in the middle of a severe weather event), paralleling will fail. It isn't that paralleling is a complex or unreliable function (it is done easily by computers all the time), but there are still so many things that can go wrong, and the computer will always err on the side of caution by not paralleling, because should the connection be closed out of phase, the results would be catastrophic (head on collision of tractor trailer kind of energy involved, or more).

My switchgear has an insulated wrench stored inside the panels for a manual transfer. You couldn't pay me enough to touch that thing.
 
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Teken

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Amazon's report said that an "instability" in the generators kept two generators from paralleling and going online, and that the vendor (unnamed, but I have good reason to believe it is Cat) made a software change to the engine computers to allow for a wider range of operation.

Now, there's a bit you can read into that. At the data center I work at, we have two generators, and they parallel every time. It takes 14-16 seconds from power outage to full transfer. 5 of those seconds are the dead time mid-transfer, about 2-3 of those seconds are taken in paralleling, and the rest is in engine startup to a stable RPM. The engine startup is so fast, because we have battery warming pads and dual block heaters to keep the oil and coolant at the same elevated temperature, year round.

In my install, the paralleling is not necessary, as each generator is large enough to handle the entire critical load. This is Tier III/IV.
It sounds like (although they have not gone on the record on this matter) that Amazon is going for Tier I (zero redundancy). In that scenario, they would only have enough power to handle the critical load IF BOTH generators were paralleled. So there would be an enabling relay output from the computer to disable transfer until both generators are online.

Now, here's the thing about paralleling. It is real simple when the computer handles it, until it doesn't work. It may work 100 times in a row, and fail when you need it. And that's assuming they actually test it, and not just run engine exercises weekly.

I run a full transfer to generator, twice annually. But I also have hours of battery capacity. It also sounds like Amazon didn't have enough battery to leave time for hands on-site to react to the issue.

As for how to parallel. You aren't synchronizing three waveforms. The three waveforms will already be 120 degrees from each other, because of the windings. The first generator to reach RPM and have output voltage within the nominal range will close it's connection with the output bus.
The next generator will closely (but not exactly) match RPMs with the first. Because the RPM's are different, the phase angle between the two will rotate. As the angle crosses zero SLOWLY, the second generator will close it's connection to the output bus.

Now if there is an issue with EITHER engine maintaining the exact speed (in the middle of a severe weather event), paralleling will fail. It isn't that paralleling is a complex or unreliable function (it is done easily by computers all the time), but there are still so many things that can go wrong, and the computer will always err on the side of caution by not paralleling, because should the connection be closed out of phase, the results would be catastrophic (head on collision of tractor trailer kind of energy involved, or more).

My switchgear has an insulated wrench stored inside the panels for a manual transfer. You couldn't pay me enough to touch that thing.

That is great insight, again thank you for your contributions. :beer:

Teken . . .
 

nehog

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...
Paralleling is pretty simple and something they don't even have to think about - it's handled easily by the controllers. Basically, the controller starts the generator and regulates the speed/etc. to produce a matching waveform (three actually, but they're tied together in time)... once everything matches it closes the contacts and continues to regulate speed to keep things matched.
...

My diesel generator is configured for parallel operation (but I only have one generator however...) Once they are 'locked' to each other, they will stay locked until there is a significant difference in engine throttle parameters. Each generator contributes energy based on its available power. Things start to go bad however when one generator shuts down and it takes itself off-line, the other generator(s) must be sized to handle the load.

For my generator there is a paralleling cable, and a junction box (both are simple, the cable is a few conductors, and the junction box just connects all the outputs together.)

That all said, those are some big friggin' generator sets!
 

JakeKohl

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Also got to remember that they aren't paying highway tax for their diesel fuel. I filled my off-road diesel barrel two weeks ago. Road diesel in my pickup was 3.85 and off-road (no raod tax but 6.5% sales tax) was 2.98 per gallon.

The gensets are most efficient when loaded heavily and constantly. The normal fluctuations in demand will do nothing but raise the cost per delivered kwH.

Still surprised how cheap the power is.

OK, but those numbers aren't amortizing the initial investment cost though....
 

geotek

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I was reading rlitman's discussion on parallleling generators and it reminded me of a recent visit to a hydroelectric plant. The plant manager was showing me the old switchgear that's going to be replaced and upgraded to new controls. He mentioned that back in the 30's when the plants were first built that was done by hand. They had a giant riostat and dials that they would syncronize before connecting to the grid and then someone's job was to watch and adjust the syncronization all day.
 
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