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T-12 Lighting ........ my conspiracy theory

djjsr

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I guess it started about 10 years ago, I think. The Dept of Energy came up with some kind of an energy saving plan. Part of that plan was to eventually phase out much of the lighting we've been using for decades in favor of stuff that uses less power.

Seems like a good idea.

Now, about 10 years later, many of us are replacing light fixtures and bulbs because the T-12 ballasts haven't been manufactured since July of last year and are getting a little hard to find. And the bulb phase out begins in July of this year (now) so I guess we have to do something, ready or not.

I have about 35 T-12 fixtures. Almost all are 8 ft with 2 bulbs, the "single pin" type. Most of them are VERY old (40 or 50 years) but have worked well.

In one room I have 6 of these fixtures and recently one of them quit. No ballasts available, so I replace the fixture with an 8 ft T-8 that takes four of the 4 ft bulbs. Everything seems good.

The light seemed a little dimmer than the old lights. Thinking it might just be the color of the lights, I grab my light meter and compare the T-8 to the old T-12.

There's a difference. The old T-12 shows about 820 (lux) and the new T-8 is about 700. I try some bulbs of a different brand. The color is a little brighter but the actual amount of light is not significantly different, at least according to my meter.

Ok, this means I'll have to add more light fixtures to get the same amount of light.

Hmmmm ........... there goes my "energy savings".

This starts playing on my mind and I'm thinking that I can't be the only one that's going to be replacing a LOT of lights for an insignificant savings. I guess I really need to do a comparison of actual light for the amount of energy used. Lux per watt, or something like that.

I've got meters and I'm going to figure this out! ............ maybe.

As my mind is trying to make sense of this whole phase out plan, I wonder why are we REALLY doing this? Hmmmmm.

Ok, we'll probably be saving energy in the long run, but it's going to cost a LOT of money to replace millions of T-12 lights.

That last part echoed in my mind.

"it's going to cost a LOT of money to replace millions of T-12 lights."


The conspiracy ............

"Follow the money" as they say.

Just suppose that the lighting industry guys all get together and come up with a plan to convince everybody that we absolutely, positively MUST throw out all the old stuff and buy lots of new stuff.

WooooHoooooo !!!! $$$$$$$$$$$

So then I think it's not likely that guys from Sylvania, Osram, Philips, Cooper, Westinghouse, General Electric and a few others would all get together, right?

Wrong. There's a couple of lighting trade associations that all of these companies belong to and I'm betting they have a few lobbyists and those lobbyists have done their job in Washington.


I could be wrong.

:)
 
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jeff000

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I've never replaced a t12 and thought to myself that it was dimmer than before.
I've replaced T12HO with less footage of tube of T8 and never thought it was dimmer then before.
I wonder if you are using the wrong ballast or something?

Also you can get 8' T8 that will plug into your T12 fixture, just change the ballast out with the tubes, cuts the change out cost in half.
 

kartracer23

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I'm sure you're 100% right. I work with a number of 'trade associations' and they are really just lobbying groups that secure business for their constituents. If their constituents aren't making money, they can't pay dues, and the trade association ceases to exist, and they're out of a job!

And I'm not saying that they're all bad - a lot of them do things that improve our lives - but it's always, always, always for the benefit of their constituents.

You think things like ABS brakes & traction control were made mandatory (in at least part of your vehicle line-up) becasue some bureaucrat in Washington wanted more work and another program to manage? Hell no, it was lobbying from the companies that make the parts.
 

Falcon67

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That's all wrong, I'm sure. Just like it's wrong to think DuPont was somehow involved in the move from R-12 to R-134A. :lol:
 

skeletonizer

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...cash for clunkers?

...mandated health insurance?

Just two more off the top of my head. Government does things to us, not for us. Funny I'd rather they did neither.
 

Gregishome

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Back in the early 90's when I was the chief electrician at a large hospital I kept written documents of all my electrical PM programs. One of my PM documents was measuring the load on the hospitals 4000 main switchgear on the oldest wing of the hospital. They were always wanting to add new diagnostic equipment so I had to watch our loads on the gear...

Its been a while now, but I think my ammeter recorder with the printed graph paper was reading around 420 amps average weekly on A,B,C, phases of the 4000 amp main gear.... (varied some of course, but I always read it during the day when loads peaked)

The hospital had all of the old twin lamp 4 ft. T-12 (40 W) fixtures with the old magnetic ballasts. A energy survey company came in one week and threw a large sales pitch to the CEO and hospital board about how much the hospital would save if they went with a lighting retrofit and eliminated all of the old fluorescents/incandescents and replaced them with CFL's and 4 ft. T8's (32W) with electronic ballasts. (hundreds of them) ..

The hospital allowed the retrofit because of the announced payback, and the first thing I noticed the hospital just wasnt as bright. (dropped from 40W to 32W per lamp) As the days went by though, the staff stopped mentioning the lower light intensity. Gradually our eyes got used to the lower light output and then before we knew it, we had nothing to compare it too, so the dimmer light wasnt a issue..

After the fixture retrofit, my recording ammeter showed the load on the 4000 amp main switchgear dropped by almost 50%. The current reading on the service neutral really picked up though.
 

eljefino

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This is interesting b/c of the non subjective light meter reading. Bulbs do (are supposed to? Are rumored to?) get brighter as they burn in over time. Get us a third data point after 24 hours of use!

Did you dust the grime off the old T12s? They could have been even brighter!
 

jkeyser14

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Lowes and Home Depot both still stock T12 fixtures, bulbs, and ballasts. I was in looking at fixtures last week and was surprised to see them.
 

OccupantRJ

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There is an electrical supply across the street from work, and so far, I have had no problem buying ballasts for the T12HO fixtures at work, which are aging out regularly after 47 years of use. They were out of stock last week, and had 2 ballasts for me the next day. They have never mentioned any difficulty in acquiring them.
 

Gregishome

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Could you please expand on this data point? :headscrat

Teken . . .

My simplistic understanding is that electronic ballasts have a higher total harmonic distortion level due to the solid state control components, which puts back more current on the neutral conductor. THD is not supposed to be a big factor in the old coil ballasts....

A electronics guru could do a better job of explaining this topic than I.
I just know the current on the main switchgear neutral conductor went up substanially, when the hospital went to all electronic ballasts.
 

FluxCore

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The federal Governent has been regulating lighting ballasts since 1990....22 years

In 1992, we adopted the Energy Policy Act, (Public Law 102-486)...20 years ago

Public Law 102-486 regulates ALL lighting products, including building efficiency standards, and mandated all states update their commercial building codes to meet or exceed(at the time)ASHRAE/IES standard 90.1-1989 specifying lighting power density limits for certain types of buildings and/or tasks...limits...caps....This same law also set lighting energy standards for all federal buildings.

Here is a quote for you from the Center for Building Science, Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory published way back in 1995.

"In the U.S., market forces have not succeeded in sufficiently stimulating economically
beneficial investments in efficient lighting technologies and practices. Even a
major free-market economy like the United States has seen the need to direct significant
government involvement towards promoting energy efficient lighting. The
methods range from simple information to sophisticated research and development.

Russia is another country with substantial lighting energy use, and considerable
potential for improved energy efficiency (Aizenberg 1993). In light of the U.S. experience,
it is unfortunate to see the former Soviet Union’s commitment to R&D
decline so rapidly in recent years.

In the U.S., we have found that government can lead the way by example—by making
its own buildings efficient—and help industries open new markets by providing
the high-risk R&D."

So sorry, T12/T8 ain't no greed driven conspiracy....It's a much needed and long delayed necessity

Official responsibility for basic research and development on energy-efficient lighting
in the United States is the responsibility of the U.S. Department of Energy.
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory (LBL) is the primary DOE site at which this
research is carried out. Following are highlights of DOE’s R&D program.

Electronic Ballast—The electronic ballast is a technology that improves the efficiency
of fluorescent lighting systems by up to 30% and enhances quality and flexibility.
During the incubation of the electronic ballast industry in the late 1970s,
LBL contracted with three small companies to produce early commercial models.
The intent of this early effort was to accelerate the availability of electronic ballasts
by demonstrating their energy efficiency and reliability in typical building
environments (Verderber et al., 1979 and 1982). After delivery to LBL for testing
to assure compliance with specifications, the ballasts were installed at a demonstration
site in a local utility office (PG&E) in San Francisco. The results of these
early demonstrations were widely publicized at technical and trade conferences.
Later work at LBL helped to improve the quality of the ballasts and validate the
potential for energy savings from dimming.

Conversion to T8 AND CFL's was NOT driven by the lighting industry, but instead our federal government
 
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Executive

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Electronic ballasts do not "have" harmonic distortion per se. What they do is add a current in the neutral conductor which is a multiple of the fundamental frequency, 60 hz. Electronic office equipment and variable speed drives also contribute to this problem. It is the result of a switching power supply changing AC to DC. Harmonics are a big problem in commercial and industrial electrical installations today. The typical solution is to install oversized neutral conductors and oversized "K" rated transformers. This just pushes the problem back to the utility. Eventually they will catch on and start back charging the customer just like they do now with low power factor.

The whole T12/T8/T5 debate will be short lived. LED lamps are already displacing CFLs and as the cost continues to drop, eventually fluorescent and HID lamps will follow the old incandescent lamp into history.

Chris
 

FluxCore

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The whole T12/T8/T5 debate will be short lived. LED lamps are already displacing CFLs and as the cost continues to drop, eventually fluorescent and HID lamps will follow the old incandescent lamp into history.

Chris
That's most likely true......Makes you wonder how this will impact the multi billion $$ drug industry.....Does pot grow well under LED lighting?
 
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Steevo

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Aren't you all the same guys that rant about how you HATE buying stuff from China and wish you could support the USA, to stimulate JOBS in THIS COUNTRY?

WTF? If you have to replace T12's with new T8 ballasts and bulbs AND those are all made in the USA, who loses?
Job stimulus, purchasing at home, boosting the American economy . . .

Isn't that what the majority here are begging for?
 

ddawg16

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Conspiracy? Here's your tin hat.

Sorry...I have issues with your light measurements....maybe the spectrum of the new lights is different and more narrow than your old T12's....but the measurements your getting are not in line with posted measurements.

A few things to consider.....the T12 bulbs have a 120hz flash cycle....whereas the T8's operate at a much higher frequency. This could create problems with your meter. It's possible it displays peak values....kind of like the comparison of AC peak vs RMS.

People want to think conspiracy....especially with the new regulations on incandescent bulbs...(what some people want to call a ban)....funny thing....the US is several years behind most other countries when it comes to phasing out incandescents....

Do you really think it would be possible to have a world wide conspiracy?
 
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jeff000

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That's most likely true......Makes you wonder how this will impact the multi billion $$ drug industry.....Does pot grow well under LED lighting?

Plant grow lights have been led for a while, they can be designed to provide the exact light spectrum and that spectrum doesn't shift like fluorescent or mh




oday. The typical solution is to install oversized neutral conductors and oversized "K" rated transformers. This just pushes the problem back to the utility. Eventually they will catch on and start back charging the customer just like they do now with low power factor.

The whole T12/T8/T5 debate will be short lived. LED lamps are already displacing CFLs and as the cost continues to drop, eventually fluorescent and HID lamps will follow the old incandescent lamp into history.

Chris

The neutral does not go back to the power company. It goes to the ground grid.
It just means old buildings with bad grounds sometimes have issues.

Led and laser is the future.
 

Executive

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The neutral does not go back to the power company. It goes to the ground grid.
It just means old buildings with bad grounds sometimes have issues.

Led and laser is the future.

Absolutely wrong.

On every single phase and three phase wye service, the utility makes the neutral at the transformer. The utility owns this and is responsible for keeping it running. Heavy harmonic currents can and do destroy utility owned equipment.

The neutral connection to the "ground grid" is just a reference for the transformer so that transformer and premises grounded and grounding conductors will be the same.

Chris
 

eljefino

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Conspiracy? Here's your tin hat.

Sorry...I have issues with your light measurements....maybe the spectrum of the new lights is different and more narrow than your old T12's....but the measurements your getting are not in line with posted measurements.

A few things to consider.....the T12 bulbs have a 120hz flash cycle....whereas the T8's operate at a much higher frequency. This could create problems with your meter. It's possible it displays peak values....kind of like the comparison of AC peak vs RMS.

People want to think conspiracy....especially with the new regulations on incandescent bulbs...(what some people want to call a ban)....funny thing....the US is several years behind most other countries when it comes to phasing out incandescents....

Do you really think it would be possible to have a world wide conspiracy?

May be better to take a one-second photo with a DSLR in Raw mode of an 18% grey card in a room lit by well-burned T12s and T8s with the shades drawn. Then feed the raw file through exactly the same processing and get a histogram. The one second exposure will average any peakiness of the light.
 

jeff000

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Absolutely wrong.

On every single phase and three phase wye service, the utility makes the neutral at the transformer. The utility owns this and is responsible for keeping it running. Heavy harmonic currents can and do destroy utility owned equipment.

The neutral connection to the "ground grid" is just a reference for the transformer so that transformer and premises grounded and grounding conductors will be the same.

Chris

Can I roll my eyes at myself? After reading your reply and then mine again I have a hard time thinking that I actually wrote it.
That's what I get for replying pre-redbull on night shift I guess.

The last 3 large distros I was a part of (4000A+ at 25kv) they used phase shifting transformers to negate some harmonics, 4th through 7th I think, or was it 11 through 14th? I'm no engineer. I just bolt the spec'ed equipment down and join the bus bars. The GE engineer explained that the ground grid is more important when they are using phase shifting for harmonic cancellation, I can't recall why now though, he was spewing more technical info then I could handle.

Old *** buildings with bad grounds, or non at all seem to have issues when harmonics get bad.

LED and laser light is still the future.
 
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djjsr

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May be better to take a one-second photo with a DSLR in Raw mode of an 18% grey card in a room lit by well-burned T12s and T8s with the shades drawn. Then feed the raw file through exactly the same processing and get a histogram. The one second exposure will average any peakiness of the light.


You're making my head spin (and my tinfoil hat flew off) ! :D

Actually, I looked at the specs for my meter and the sample time is 2/10ths of a second, so I don't think the peaks are an issue.

I went back and rechecked the 6 fixtures in that room. 5 are old T12 and one somewhat new T8. There is some variation among the T12 lights, about 50 or 60 lux, maybe age related, but they are ALL reading higher than the T8. Next step is to try different brand tubes in the T8 with a color temperature up in the 6000k range. Theoretically, it shouldn't make much difference but I just want to see what happens.
 

jeff000

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You're making my head spin (and my tinfoil hat flew off) ! :D

Actually, I looked at the specs for my meter and the sample time is 2/10ths of a second, so I don't think the peaks are an issue.

I went back and rechecked the 6 fixtures in that room. 5 are old T12 and one somewhat new T8. There is some variation among the T12 lights, about 50 or 60 lux, maybe age related, but they are ALL reading higher than the T8. Next step is to try different brand tubes in the T8 with a color temperature up in the 6000k range. Theoretically, it shouldn't make much difference but I just want to see what happens.

Why are you going up into the 6000k range? Those tubes have to be getting expensive, 4500k is the "cool white" and available everywhere. 6000k is turning a blue tint, and around here tough to find.

Also a lux meter doesn't have much use outside testing the start and end life of the same tube.
If you want to cross compare go and get yourself a PAR meter.
 

Alchymist

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So then I think it's not likely that guys from Sylvania, Osram, Philips, Cooper, Westinghouse, General Electric and a few others would all get together, right?
Just an FYI - Osram owns Sylvania.
The federal Governent has been regulating lighting ballasts since 1990....32 years

In 1992, we adopted the Energy Policy Act, (Public Law 102-486)...30 years ago
?? :evil:
 
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djjsr

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Do you really think it would be possible to have a world wide conspiracy?


I never said worldwide, I never even said it was a government conspiracy.

What I think is that the D.O.E. was looking for ways to save energy on a large scale. Good idea, that's part of their job. Then the lighting industry group(s) lobbyists step forward and say, "Hey, if we get rid of all these lights and replace them with these lights, you'll save a zillion dollars."

After looking at some technical mumbo jumbo, the DOE tells congress about this great idea for everyone to BUY the new stuff. Being technically (and apparently economically) illiterate, all congress hears is a zillion dollars and/or a zillion megawatts savings. They decide to pass the laws and Joe Blow (that's me) has to buy all new light fixtures.

Realistically, I don't think it's a bad thing. I just don't like the idea of removing something that works just fine and spending a lot of money on something else that works just fine. I think it should have been market driven. If the T8's are better, then over time the market for the T12's will stop their production.

Lots of taxpayer dollars are being spent to remove working lights in govt buildings and schools. I guess our wealthy government can afford it.

I can't.

As my ballasts go bad, I'll replace the T12's with T8's, no problem, as long as there's a supply of tubes (I'm stocking up). Good idea, it makes sense and maybe I'll save a few bucks on the electric bill.


One more thing I was thinking about .......... I recently saw an ad on TV for tires that save gas. Great idea! How about if we all throw away the tires we have now and install these new ones? Don't wait until they wear out, we could be saving gas now!
 
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djjsr

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Also a lux meter doesn't have much use outside testing the start and end life of the same tube.
If you want to cross compare go and get yourself a PAR meter.


I'm really not that interested. I'm just using it as a relative number. 800 lux is more light than 600 lux, right?


Btw, I discovered that direct sunlight is a steady 203,000 lux today. That's the equivalent of about 250 of my T-12 fixtures!

:D
 

FluxCore

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Speaking of market driven.....lets mention the HUGE commercial real estate market, and WHY they oppose the forced changeover to efficient buildings.

They OWN whole skyscrapers and lease out space. The building owners are responsible for the utility systems, but the tenants pay for utility consumption, so WHY would the building owner CARE or be motivated to invest in lighting upgrades?

Even homeowners have historicly resisted replacing wornout appliances with more efficient ones due to higher initial cost, even when SHOWN the fast payback via lower utility bills.

So in both cases, the feds step in and offer tax rebates and deductions, along with the power companys.

If anyone lobbies for more efficient products, it's the power companies who most want to see it happen....Nationide we are approaching max capacity where the cost to increase capacity is enormous....publicly owned utilities don't want to invest billions, they want to pay shareholder's profits.
 

jeff000

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If anyone lobbies for more efficient products, it's the power companies who most want to see it happen....Nationide we are approaching max capacity where the cost to increase capacity is enormous....publicly owned utilities don't want to invest billions, they want to pay shareholder's profits.

This,
The power grid is overloaded. Just look at the blackouts and rolling brownouts this week. Sure it's mostly AC that's overloading it, but that's harder to reduce the usage compared to lighting.
 
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djjsr

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This,
The power grid is overloaded. Just look at the blackouts and rolling brownouts this week. Sure it's mostly AC that's overloading it, but that's harder to reduce the usage compared to lighting.


Ok, now you're making me feel guilty. I guess having to use an ice scraper to look out the window is wrong?
 

jeff000

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Ok, now you're making me feel guilty. I guess having to use an ice scraper to look out the window is wrong?

lol. I can not comment as my ac is running right now. But Around here I would say only 10-15% of houses have ac.
 

FluxCore

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This,
The power grid is overloaded. Just look at the blackouts and rolling brownouts this week. Sure it's mostly AC that's overloading it, but that's harder to reduce the usage compared to lighting.
Yup......

...And to think some folks REALLY believe lighting manufacturers ganged up and begged Congress to make their products obsolete and require them to tool up, and R&D, and INVEST million or billions in new product lines...nope, it didn't happen.

Instead, what happened was back in late 80's-early 90's the DOE hired Livermore Labs to study the problem, then they contracted 3 ballast manufactures to build prototype electronic ballast to test....DOE and Livermore along with another contract university lab then fine tuned their findings and worked with several manufacturers to help develop what we have today.
 

eljefino

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If it were a conspiracy why do they make electronic ballasts that will run either T12 or T8? Why are the bulb pinouts/ tombstones physically compatible and some "wrong" combos will kinda work?

Now for a moral hazard:

My closet light went out; it's only 8 years old, though it's a HD cheapie. 8" circle flourescent. Building code says a closet needs a cool running flourescent if it's within several feet of combustibles. Now I need another pricy 8" bulb.

My utility subsidizes 13 watt edison base CFLs, six for a dollar. If I put in an illegal socket that could theoretically hold a fire-starting incandescent, I get to use these cheap bulbs. But I'm a goody-two-shoes and am paying for it.
 

FluxCore

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If it were a conspiracy why do they make electronic ballasts that will run either T12 or T8? Why are the bulb pinouts/ tombstones physically compatible and some "wrong" combos will kinda work?

Now for a moral hazard:

My closet light went out; it's only 8 years old, though it's a HD cheapie. 8" circle flourescent. Building code says a closet needs a cool running flourescent if it's within several feet of combustibles. Now I need another pricy 8" bulb.

My utility subsidizes 13 watt edison base CFLs, six for a dollar. If I put in an illegal socket that could theoretically hold a fire-starting incandescent, I get to use these cheap bulbs. But I'm a goody-two-shoes and am paying for it.

I've been in this house 20 years...it's 40 years old...It has two circline fixtures in closets(often left on by mistake for days)..I have never had to replace either bulb....Make sure to buy a USA made top quality bulb and odds are it will last 20-30 years.
 
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