CFLs versus T8s

[Crazy68Dart]

Curious, has anyone installed an array of porcelain base screw in fixtures to use CLFs instead of the common/standard 4' T8 fixture?

I am not sure it would be cost effective, but it seemed like it might have some advantages in terms of lighting.

Big disadvantage that I see is the lack of a reflector. Might not be that big of a deal if the ceiling is finished, dunno.

Thanks.

 

[jeff000]

Wouldn't be cost effective, and would look terrible imo.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

GJ member veno did this very informative thread on large CFL's and his installation of them.

Charles

 

[Thruxton]

I did it in my 19 X 19 and love it. White ceiling, hipped white walls, 6 75W equivalent CFL's plus one on a separate switch, and task lighting gives me all the light I need.

 

[EOC_Jason]

What is nice are the double T8 fixtures. Instead of using the 8' lights these use 4 x 4' in the same configuration... Give off slightly more light too.

 

[jvitez]

I hate CFL's! They take way too long to reach full brightness, and last far shorter than nice reliable T8's. T8's also come in a bewildering array of choices, so you can get exactly the colour temperature, lamp longevity, and colour rendering index you want for exactly what you do in your garage.

Cheap plastic medium screw base lampholders and CFL's are the cheapest in installation cost, but your operating costs will be higher. Lumen for lumen CFL's use more electricity too.

 

[eljefino]

IMO it has its place if your utility subsidizes CFLs. Sometimes I can get them 6 for $1.

You could do perimeter or task lighting with them, like over your workbench, and put them on their own switch. If you just have to run out for something, flick them on instead of your more expensive T8 overheads; the cold start wear will be on the cheapies.

I went with a pair of CFLs near opposite walls on a roofing truss in my woodshed. Keeps one light from casting a black-hole shadow, is enough lighting for the purpose, and is something that will almost always be a quick on-off.

Also if your wife/mom/kids are intimidated by changing 4 foot tubes, there's nothing simpler than an edison base bulb.

 

[Highbeam]

Not so convinced that initial cost would be lower than t8 fixtures.

If you plan to use the 6 for 1$ size CFL then you will need many many fixtures, lots of wire, wire nuts, ceiling boxes, and time. Certainly, operating and maintenance costs for the CFLs will be higher since they are so inefficient and need frequent replacement.

Shadows will be reduced since you will have 100 points of light spread out all over the ceiling. I do believe that bulbs are available in as much variety as t8 tubes, you just have to mail order them.

 

[jeff000]

I did it in my 19 X 19 and love it. White ceiling, hipped white walls, 6 75W equivalent CFL's plus one on a separate switch, and task lighting gives me all the light I need.

450 watts to get what 384 watts of T8 would do way better. 256 watts of T8 would be better lighting then the 450 watts of CFL.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Boy, some folks get really wound tight over the CFL's. CFL's, like any technology, has come a long ways since its introduction. Current lights, those made in the past two years or so, seem to last a very long time, as they are supposed to, and don't seem to burn up or overheat as the ones of several years ago did. I had a couple nearly catch fire, fried themselves right up, but haven't had that happen in a long time. While not a fan of CFL's, they can be made to work and do it efficiently. You will spend money doing it however, as the large ones are not cheap.

Again, I suggest looking at the thread by veno that I linked to above, its a good example of CFL's that work in a shop, and I was one of the original naysayers when the thread first started.

450 watts to get what 384 watts of T8 would do way better. 256 watts of T8 would be better lighting then the 450 watts of CFL.

I would be curious to see all the numbers and where you derived this information from. Doesn't do much good to spout numbers like this without giving further info, such as bulb types, sizes, color, and lumen output.

I think you need to reconsider the statement. Thruxton stated that he used 6 ea 75 watt EQUIVALENT CFL's, at 23 watts each, that is only 138 watts. Granted, CFL's have some horrible power factors, but all you did was take 75 watts (incandescent) and multiply by 6 each, and that isn't how it works...........


Charles

 

[jeff000]

I would be curious to see all the numbers and where you derived this information from. Doesn't do much good to spout numbers like this without giving further info, such as bulb types, sizes, color, and lumen output.

I think you need to reconsider the statement. Thruxton stated that he used 6 ea 75 watt EQUIVALENT CFL's, at 23 watts each, that is only 138 watts. Granted, CFL's have some horrible power factors, but all you did was take 75 watts (incandescent) and multiply by 6 each, and that isn't how it works...........


Charles

No number needed, have you ever seen a CFL compared to a T8?
Sorry math was off yes, was a long night.

My old mans garage, 32'L and 26'W, 9'8" ceiling. He had 12 100w incandescent lights. Gave a good amount of light. Changed those out about 6 years ago to 100w equivalent CFL, there was less light, but it was whiter light.
Last summer, changed it out to 6 4' 2 tube T8 fixtures. 4200k tubes. Even with only 3 of the fixtures lamped there was oddles more light then the CFLs ever had. With all 6 fixtures it's like an operating room.

In those 5 years of CFL almost all the CFLs had to be changed at least once.

If you want to waist time looking up lumen values then go for it. I'd put 2 2 tube 4' T8 fixures against 6 75w equivalent CFL any day. In a 19x19.
That's 128w's of T8 to 138w's of CFL

 

[Crazy68Dart]

Wow, touchy topic... haha.

There were a few 8' tube fixtures (appear to be HD commercial grade) in the attached garage when we moved in. They put off a lot of light, but are also mounted against the ceiling which is nearly 12' off the ground.

Atheistically, I have never considered any light fixture of this type to be "nice looking" so that never really crossed my mind.

I think I need to spend some time sourcing some quality tube fixtures. What is available at the big box stores just seem cheap to me.

 

[Thruxton]

Of course it all boils down to what works for you. My setup works for me, that's all. I would point out one thing: I got some CFL's for the kitchen and got a real shock when I turned them on: they were "daylight" color temp, and gave off much less usable (my subjective reaction of course) light than the "warm white" I use in my shop. If you want to evaluate CFL's, I would keep the color temp effect in mind.

 

[Highbeam]

Boy, some folks get really wound tight over the CFL's.
Charles

That was a fantastic pun.

You don't need to choose between CFLs and T8s, you can use both. Tubes for general light and CFL for task light as an example.

When you walk into the walmart, you don't see 5000 cfl bulbs threaded into the ceiling. You see tubes, lots of them. They are the cheaper way to go.

 

[rlitman]

When you walk into the walmart, you don't see 5000 cfl bulbs threaded into the ceiling. You see tubes, lots of them. They are the cheaper way to go.

Yeah, but they're using T5-HO bulbs. Not something that's realistic in most settings outside of a warehouse/store.

 

[Steevo]

I considered Veno's idea before I decided on how to light my shop.
I don't have the high-bay open beam to work with like he did, I have a flat 12' ceiling. I didn't want the (very long) high-wattage CFL's hanging down from the ceiling full-length, to get broken off by my carelessness, so I designed a layout that used recessed fixtures with reflectors inside, and the last three inches of the bulb protruding below the ceiling for the best light dispersion possible. This would have put them as low as flush mounted T8 tube fixtures, so no more or less of an obstruction for my space.
Then I calculated the number and placement for both T8 fixtures and the can/CFL combo's needed to get the same lumens and foot candles at work surface height, and would have needed something like 44 recessed fixtures. That is a LOT more wiring, a LOT more up front expense, a LOT more labor to hang and adjust all those can fixtures, and a LOT more hassle when sheet-rocking the ceiling.
I think the purchase cost alone for the cans/CFL's was three or four times the cost the T8 fixtures I ended up using and the power consumption calculations showed the CFL's using more power.

 

[jeff000]

Yeah, but they're using T5-HO bulbs. Not something that's realistic in most settings outside of a warehouse/store.

They use t8 here. T5 is really nice, but little pricy still.

 

[Dan in Pasadena]

Boy, some folks get really wound tight over the CFL's. CFL's,..........
Charles

An Observation: Some people really get wound tight about ANY eff'ing thing.
Have we not all noticed that yet?

I'm a proponent of the axiom, "Don't sweat the small stuff.... and it's ALL small stuff" - which of course will get SOMEONE all tightly wound up, ha ha.

 

[FluxCore]

Curious, has anyone installed an array of porcelain base screw in fixtures to use CLFs instead of the common/standard 4' T8 fixture?

I am not sure it would be cost effective, but it seemed like it might have some advantages in terms of lighting.

Big disadvantage that I see is the lack of a reflector. Might not be that big of a deal if the ceiling is finished, dunno.

Thanks.

First of all, I only read the very first post by the original poster, then I answered, so forgive me if my reply has already been stated by others.

Friend, I had six 4x4 junction boxes in my shop ceiling that begged to be used for more than lighting junction boxes...I work rotating shifts so I ended up in Walmart late one night recently and noticed they had ceramic edison screw base GE bulb bases on clearance at a buck each...plus their Ecko branded 200 watt equivelant CFLS were also on sale...So I bought 6 of each.

I got home and quickly installed all right down center of my shop....GAWD, did they make a difference!

The junction boxes were on 4' centers and had a switch leg that was separately switched, so I tapped into it with each fixture...yeah, seeing as how I have an 8' ceiling I might bust one if I swing a sheet of plywood wrong, but I don't care...me happy

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Yeah, but they're using T5-HO bulbs. Not something that's realistic in most settings outside of a warehouse/store.

All the Wal-Marts and Sams Club in the Atlanta area converted from 400 watt MH fixtures to two bulb strips of T8 lamps several years ago. I haven't seen a T5HO in any of them. They have the lights on light sensors and have added a bunch of skylights to each store I've been in. If the sun is shining bright, most of the lights are out. I watched them cycle on and off and on again several times one day as clouds passed over then moved away, changing the amount of sunlight coming thru the skylights.

Charles

 

[Highbeam]

t8s are superior for instalation, maintenance, safety, and operating cost. Still failing to see the benefit of CFL.

CFLs are for in the house in fixture locations where a 4' tube is too long.

 

[ddawg16]

Wouldn't be cost effective, and would look terrible imo.

I would suspect you have not done it so you wouldn't know.....

I hate CFL's! They take way too long to reach full brightness, and last far shorter than nice reliable T8's. T8's also come in a bewildering array of choices, so you can get exactly the colour temperature, lamp longevity, and colour rendering index you want for exactly what you do in your garage.

Cheap plastic medium screw base lampholders and CFL's are the cheapest in installation cost, but your operating costs will be higher. Lumen for lumen CFL's use more electricity too.

We know you hate them.....more comments below....

t8s are superior for instalation, maintenance, safety, and operating cost. Still failing to see the benefit of CFL.

CFLs are for in the house in fixture locations where a 4' tube is too long.

What degree of 'superior'?

Instead of 'opinions', how about some real #'s.

One of the better ways to measure how good a light is, is to use 'Efficacy', or lums/watt.

So....

Incandescent.......7-14
LED....................100 (big variation among products)
CFL....................69-78 (typical pin style, ballast is in the fixture)
CFL....................65-69 (typical CFL with the ballast in the bulb)
T8......................80

So....a T8 is maybe 15% more effecient than a CFL?

Based on that...t8 is the obvious choice......

Except.....

T8's take up more space.....only come in one wattage for the tube length....don't fit too well in certain spots....

CFL...more color choices...more wattage choices....more position choices.....

I have 16 6" recessed cans in the lower level of my garage....I currently have 23w CFL's in them....lights come on quickly....I've had them in there for about 4 years and have yet to change a bulb....some of the bulbs are about 8 years old.....

With T8 or T5....not a lot of flexibilty with the lamps.....but with recessed cans with either the Edison base or GU24 base....lots of options...including LED....

Long term...recessed cans are the most flexible choice.

 

[Highbeam]

With T8 or T5....not a lot of flexibilty with the lamps.....but with recessed cans with either the Edison base or GU24 base....lots of options...including LED....

Long term...recessed cans are the most flexible choice.

You got that right. Absolutely correct that you can change wattages as needed instead of just adding more fixtures.

For fixture size, well sure the CFL fixture is not a long tube taking up ceiling space but it does hang down in harms way which is way worse.

Installing the CFLs in a zillion can fixtures is not reasonable for a decently sized shop. It would require very high cost cans and labor. Plus efficiency would **** even more since the can causes a loss vs. an exposed bulb of any type. All of the ceiling penetrations make it very difficult to seal the living space as well so you'll have heating/coling expenses increased unless you have a two story garage.

So back to high install cost and more than 15% efficiency hit to use the failure prone CFLs.

 

[FluxCore]

CFL's have their place in shops, in homes, and even on the exterior.

We don't design shops around lighting, we adapt lighting to existing structures, or we "consider" all lighting choices when building or remodeling, then we select what is often a mix.

In my shop and inside/outside my home I use a little of everything.

One of the nice features of CFL's is they can be had in MANY wattages and color choices, and don't usually require I replace a fixture.

 

[Zengineer]

8 CFLs in medium base ceramic fixtures in my 16*24 shop... Total cost about $50. Not going to get close to that with T8's...

 

[Highbeam]

8 CFLs in medium base ceramic fixtures in my 16*24 shop... Total cost about $50. Not going to get close to that with T8's...

So that includes the ceiling boxes, extra wire, edison bases, and bulbs? Good deal and you're right, it would have taken a few t8 fixtures, probably triple the install cost for that small area.

Is that like a one car garage? Probably really bright.

 

[jeff000]

You can get t8 or T5 tubes in more color temps than cfl. Or in the least just as many. So that's a dead argument.

Running pot lights in a garage... Well it looks good, but lots of work, and very directional light, you don't get the all over scattering of light that you get from t8 or even exposed cfl.

Some of the prices being listed here are unrealistic, 50 bucks for 8 cfl, bases, wire, boxes, etc is too cheap, sure you might have had parts kicking around from before, but you still have to bill for it. And one off luck sale of whatever source doesn't count either.

Yes you can light your garage with cfl, but t8 will give a more even lighting option, and with reflectors get more light into where you want it.
Cfl and fluorescent lights are really the same thing, so comparing them isn't as easy.

You can get led tubes for t8, you can get par30 mogul base leds too, I wouldn't used either in a garage yet though. But they have there place.

 

[Zengineer]

So that includes the ceiling boxes, extra wire, edison bases, and bulbs? Good deal and you're right, it would have taken a few t8 fixtures, probably triple the install cost for that small area.

Is that like a one car garage? Probably really bright.

It's a 1.5 car. Sitting at about 33ft-candles, not super bright but decent. 8 fixtures is 8 fixtures, I was planning on running 8 T8 4' strips off the start, so I don't really factor the boxes/wiring into the total cost. Would have spend that part either way.

I will go to T8's eventually, but for a cheap and easy solution, this works well for my space. Its been 3 years now and I haven't changed a bulb.