2x4s to block? Tapcon or some other fastener?

[JamesR219]

Need to secure some 2x4s as furring strips to block in order to put up some gear wall. I am likely over thinking this, but any suggestions on what fastener to secure it to the concrete block wall?

Some places say just adhesive and t-nailer? Others say tapcon? Others say sleeve anchors, redheads, etc? Some say that with PL200 on it, the screws are just really for decoration?

This will be supporting the gearwall and all the cabinets and junk on it. So it needs to hold. Gearwall will be screwed into the 2x4s..

I've never had much luck with tapcons they always tend to strip out with me, maybe I need to refine my technique. I use the drill bit in the box with hammer drill, but I wonder if drill bit or drill chuck slightly something creating larger hole then is needed. Or maybe not drilling deep enough or not blowout out dust and screw is bottoming out and stripping?

I don't have a t-nailer, so I would need to rent one. I need to put up maybe 50 or so 7' strips.

-jr

 

[shannonw]

I use tapcons and red heads on my block house. red heads are awesome on block and i've been using those for heavy stuff (soffits around garage permiter,etc). I've found tapcons are much easier if drill right size hole with hammer drill, then use an impact drill. Actually everything is easier with impact!

If you're using 2x4's redheads are fool proof..drill recommended hold, put it in, wrench with deep socket done...you'd have to counter sink the redheads because the nut and bolt will stick out. You want to pick a red head size that of course doesn't go through the block cavity =) you want it to expand and grip the sides.

That said, all my 4x8 slatwall sheets are hung on 1x4's with couple tapcons and probably bunch of dry wall screws i had laying around for the slatwall =) 10 years and i hang a **** load off of em (no cabinets though, just shelves, baskets,etc like you see in retail stores).

 

[ydna]

If you are going into hollow block wall with a tapcon, be sure to select a length that is suitable for the size of blocks you are dealing with. Hilti have a (overpriced) fastened called HLX if I remember right. Its a hollow wall fastener. You may be able to get a suitable size there too.
Or threaded rod and HY20 and screens would do it too.

 

[shannonw]

Here's what i'd do to be quick, get your furring all setup. use plain wood spade bit large enough for the redhead washer (put a mark on the spade for depth guidance or your drill may have a depth stop guide bar.) though you can get a boring type bit too which is a bit easier. Make your counter sink. hold the board up where you want it, use a pencil, sharpie, whatever to mark the block wall through the hole.

Next hammer drill the block hole. hold furing up, hammer redhead in (make sure the nut is on the end so you don't damage thread), tighten. done. if by some chance you end up with some of the redhead bolt sticking out you can angle grind it off.

Honestly if you're not hanging cabinets, 2x4's seem overkill to me. If i used a 1x4 i'd use a tapcon, but they can be irritating to novices like me. But i drilled a couple other day with my impact after predrilling and it went like butter...in the past i'd either round out the hole, or snap the tapcon...the impact made all the difference.

 

[BD1]

Would it be stronger just to build a 2x4 stud wall and anchor to floor and ceiling ?

 

[JamesR219]

Thanks. Good info. This forum is great!

 

[OccupantRJ]

Would it be stronger just to build a 2x4 stud wall and anchor to floor and ceiling ?

I agree with this, as the weight will be supported by the floor, with the upper part of the wall simply prevented from toppling by the upper support. You could also add insulation with this method.

 

[danski0224]

Need to secure some 2x4s as furring strips to block in order to put up some gear wall. I am likely over thinking this, but any suggestions on what fastener to secure it to the concrete block wall?

Some places say just adhesive and t-nailer? Others say tapcon? Others say sleeve anchors, redheads, etc? Some say that with PL200 on it, the screws are just really for decoration?

This will be supporting the gearwall and all the cabinets and junk on it. So it needs to hold. Gearwall will be screwed into the 2x4s..

I've never had much luck with tapcons they always tend to strip out with me, maybe I need to refine my technique. I use the drill bit in the box with hammer drill, but I wonder if drill bit or drill chuck slightly something creating larger hole then is needed. Or maybe not drilling deep enough or not blowout out dust and screw is bottoming out and stripping?

I don't have a t-nailer, so I would need to rent one. I need to put up maybe 50 or so 7' strips.

-jr

Cinder block ***** for any reliable fastening methods.

Tapcon type fasteners hold, as long as the hole doesn't strip out. Cinder block isn't what I would call a consistent material. I would not rely on Tapcon type fasteners into cinder block for your project, unless the block is solid or the fastener is driven into the solid part of the block.

You do NOT need a hammer drill to make holes in cinder block. The hammer action actually breaks out the backside of the hole and can also break apart the pieces that make up the block. Plain old carbide tipped drills in a regular drill will work just fine, or turn off the hammer mode.


I checked out a video on a T nailer, and I wouldn't use that on block, either. Not much holding power in concrete: http://thefastenercompany.com/concrete_t_nailer.htm

Now, if the wood is used with an adhesive, maybe.



If you are set to fasten something to the block, I would use expansion type anchors. Adding adhesive to the wood to block joint would not hurt.

The common variety lead sleeve anchor works well.

http://fasteners.nova-anchor.com/category/lag-shields-lead-wood-screw-shields



These are harder to find, but work much better:

http://fasteners.nova-anchor.com/viewitems/single-double-expansion-shields/double-expansion-shields?

You will not be able to pull those puppies out. They also work if you drill in the hollow part of the block if the wall thickness is enough. As the screw is tightened and a washer covers the face opening, the wedges push the anchor body out. Your 2 x 4 would act as the washer.



This type of expansion anchor needs a closed hole. If you hit the open part of the cinder block, you can't use this:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/STRONGTIE-Expansion-Screw-Anchor-4XGE1



Things like drop-ins or other anchors that require hammering to set would not be advisable, unless the block is solid or filled with concrete/grout... and I still wouldn't use them in block.

Drop-in type anchors: http://www.itwredhead.com/product.php?Multi-Set-II-Drop-In-Anchors-12

I would also avoid wedge anchors in cinder block: http://www.homedepot.com/buy/buildi...e-anchor-for-solid-concrete-25pack-64087.html

Hollow concrete block typically doesn't have enough anchor embedment to use these sleeve anchors: http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=50305&ucst=t


Yes, I have set lots and lots of all anchor types mentioned above (except the T nails).

 

[rlitman]

Cinder block ***** for any reliable fastening methods.

EVERYTHING he said is spot on!

Glue won't hurt.

Tapcons can and do strip out. I'd say that hammering into block with a cordless drill won't chip out the backside of the hole too badly, but my SDS will easily blow out big holes.
They do make "lag bolt" sized tapcon like bolts that may work better for you, but it's not really something ideal for block. My local Ace has them.

Wedge type RedHeads are certainly not suitable for block at all.

The double expansion anchors are by far the best choice. Again, Ace has them.

Lead shields are ok, and I like them for stuff that's softer than block (brick), but that would be my second choice.

 

[danski0224]

Those "lag bolt Tapcons" don't work too well in cinder block.

Not a fault of the fastener, which should be used in concrete.

 

[markf4e]

Ive done pl premium to put strips on unpainted block, works very well

 

[FakeName]

Is the block filled or hollow?

 

[bp460]

Mcmaster Carr has an anchor that works great on hollow block
as well as solid concrete.

www.mcmaster.com

Search for part # 97016A972

They have a standard threaded hole. I also agree
that using a non-hammer drill on block is best.

-Brad

 

[May Pop]

My favorite are lead anchors for something I want to hold like electricial panels ect. A hollow wall set is mandatory for best results. I have done thousands in the last 25 years.I also second the construction adheasive also.
Ron

 

[JamesR219]

The wall is likely a combination of hollow and filled block. I want to say that they fill the voids every so often.

I'd say that more hollow then filled block.

Thanks,

-jr

 

[JamesR219]

Cinder block ***** for any reliable fastening methods.

Tapcon type fasteners hold, as long as the hole doesn't strip out. Cinder block isn't what I would call a consistent material. I would not rely on Tapcon type fasteners into cinder block for your project, unless the block is solid or the fastener is driven into the solid part of the block.

You do NOT need a hammer drill to make holes in cinder block. The hammer action actually breaks out the backside of the hole and can also break apart the pieces that make up the block. Plain old carbide tipped drills in a regular drill will work just fine, or turn off the hammer mode.


I checked out a video on a T nailer, and I wouldn't use that on block, either. Not much holding power in concrete: http://thefastenercompany.com/concrete_t_nailer.htm

Now, if the wood is used with an adhesive, maybe.



If you are set to fasten something to the block, I would use expansion type anchors. Adding adhesive to the wood to block joint would not hurt.

The common variety lead sleeve anchor works well.

http://fasteners.nova-anchor.com/category/lag-shields-lead-wood-screw-shields



These are harder to find, but work much better:

http://fasteners.nova-anchor.com/viewitems/single-double-expansion-shields/double-expansion-shields?

You will not be able to pull those puppies out. They also work if you drill in the hollow part of the block if the wall thickness is enough. As the screw is tightened and a washer covers the face opening, the wedges push the anchor body out. Your 2 x 4 would act as the washer.



This type of expansion anchor needs a closed hole. If you hit the open part of the cinder block, you can't use this:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/STRONGTIE-Expansion-Screw-Anchor-4XGE1



Things like drop-ins or other anchors that require hammering to set would not be advisable, unless the block is solid or filled with concrete/grout... and I still wouldn't use them in block.

Drop-in type anchors: http://www.itwredhead.com/product.php?Multi-Set-II-Drop-In-Anchors-12

I would also avoid wedge anchors in cinder block: http://www.homedepot.com/buy/buildi...e-anchor-for-solid-concrete-25pack-64087.html

Hollow concrete block typically doesn't have enough anchor embedment to use these sleeve anchors: http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=50305&ucst=t


Yes, I have set lots and lots of all anchor types mentioned above (except the T nails).

Thanks for the great information! Seems like the lead sleeve or double expansion one is the way to go and I'll be able to use it everywhere (hollow or filled block).

I'll research that. Thanks!

-jr

 

[Rtw5150]

Lead expanding anchors (we call them AJ's the original ones were made by Ackerman & Johnson)
and a hollow wall set, I use the hollow wall set even if it hits a solid block, they are very strong.

http://m.grainger.com/mobile/details/?R=4XGE1

http://www.diamondtool.net/p/large-diameter-screw-anchors/greenlee/868/calk-hollow-wall-setting-tool

 

[VANAMAL]

We attach furring stips on block for drywall and plaster with hat rack. Its a metal channel with flanges on the sides. Its pretty cheap like wood. You would neen to borrow a hilti type gun and shoot it on with the 1" pins. Easy if you can find a tool. Ramset is the same. Strong attachment

 

[NUTTSGT]

If you're trying to use Tapcons and they start to strip out, my advice is to throw the drill bit away and buy a new one.

Once they start to bend, they will wallow the hole out and allow the tapcon to strip out.

 

[May Pop]

Once a tapcon hole is stripped you can save it by putting a ty-wrap or 2 into the hole and a new tapcon and it will hold real well. Ive had to do this were others have ruined a hole were an item had no other place to go.

Ron

 

[NUTTSGT]

Once a tapcon hole is stripped you can save it by putting a ty-wrap or 2 into the hole and a new tapcon and it will hold real well. Ive had to do this were others have ruined a hole were an item had no other place to go.

Ron

I'll try that one day, I know a wood splitter will do the samething in wood but never knew that about a ziptie.

 

[JamesR219]

If you're trying to use Tapcons and they start to strip out, my advice is to throw the drill bit away and buy a new one.

Once they start to bend, they will wallow the hole out and allow the tapcon to strip out.

Yes, I honestly think that might be my problem. I also think the bits they put in the tapcon packs aren't the best quality.

Still think I'm going to go with some anchors on these though..

-jr

 

[theoldwizard1]

Cinder block ***** for any reliable fastening methods. Not a fault of the fastener, which should be used in concrete.

I concur. What I found was that Tapcon or any metal expanding anchor just caused the block to crumble.

If the load is not too high I would use Red Head Poly-Set Plastic Anchors. Buy them without the screws because the ones they will give you won't be long enough (Good luck find #12x5 screws). They do hold a lot of weight, but you would probably need 6 of them on a 8' 2x4. Construction adhesive is a good addition, but make certain the surface is clean.

Would it be stronger just to build a 2x4 stud wall and anchor to floor and ceiling ?

Probably.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Once a tapcon hole is stripped you can save it by putting a ty-wrap or 2 into the hole and a new tapcon and it will hold real well. Ive had to do this were others have ruined a hole were an item had no other place to go.

Ron

So you have effective turned a Tapcon into a plastic wall anchor.

 

[rvr6000]

I have always had very good luck with Drive-Pins (Nail-Ins) with cement block. Use a piece of 1/4" pipe to set the head of the pin against the wood then nail in the center like you would a typical nail. I have a cupboard mounted to the basement wall loaded with books and booze and it doesn't even remotely budge.

 

[shannonw]

Lots of experience on here, so i'll just reiterate what works for me. 10+ years in a block house in florida it isn't a big deal. If you want to get it done tomorrow go down to hd and get the smallest redhead sleeve anchors they work fine in concrete block. That is more work as you have to counter sink into your 2bys, but anyone could do it. (i still think the 2bys is overkill but if you're planning on hanging cabinets probably a good idea). You don't need to crank it down, just snug it really well nothing is going to explode.

If it was me, i'd get an impact driver and some 3/16 tapcons, sheer strength on one is couple hundred lbs. It's literally this easy with the impact:

I just did new downspouts all around the house with those, and the impact was effortless.

if you don't have an impact and do wood ,etc projects you'll wonder how you lived without it.

Otherwise you'll have to pay attention to the experienced types on here about how to drive them.

The poly anchors i'd think would work too, if i was mounting cabinets or something i wouldn't use those.

I got a whole garage covered in slatwall, bike racks, soffits, shelves, and god knows what else and how much weight and i've never had any concrete block crumble crack apart,etc, anything pull out. If i was mounting some serious weight or looking for direct pull out strength that's another story, but for some slatwall type stuff it doesn't take much.

Keep in mind in your corners, the concrete block will be poured solid.

 

[camarotoolman]

I like Hilti the best. Never had problem. Used 1000s of them on commerial jobs.

 

[3PedalMINI]

I would just build a 2x4 wall, makes everything so much easier and more secure. JMO

 

[JamesR219]

I like Hilti the best. Never had problem. Used 1000s of them on commerial jobs.

Hilti what? The hilti brand tap cons?

-jr

 

[JamesR219]

Would it be stronger just to build a 2x4 stud wall and anchor to floor and ceiling ?

but won't work since I'm not mounting it all the way up to the ceiling. 7' of gear wall on a 10' wall. (2' from bottom and 1' from top) more or less.

-jr

 

[zporta]

I would use tapcons if it's a furring strip. And use a impact driver rather then drill driver to save some bits and screw heads.

I use redheads when attaching something that required any sort of wind sheer rating

 

[jbax]

Very old thread but I found it extremely helpful and wanted to add my experience for anyone else passing by.

I had the same issue: attaching 1x4 to cinder block garage wall. In my case the walls are below grade and prone to a little moisture (the previous owner had a french drain installed although I've never heard the sump pump run).

Due to the moisture, I went with Copper Azole treated 1x4's, 2 1/4" stainless steel deck screws, screwed into lead shields inserted into the cinder block. The stainless steel screws serve double-duty: they should not be affected by the treated wood and won't rust in the block. It's worth noting that some Tapcons I put in 3 years ago for a shelving system were already rusted and sheared off when I tried to remove them.

I was concerned that drilling a lot of holes in the block might exacerbate the moisture problem, so before inserting the lead shields I squirted a blob of polyurethane sealer into the hole drilled in the block (sikaflex concrete fix). Not too much or you can't hammer the lead shield anchor in without bending it. With the right amount of sealant and gentle tapping on the lead shield anchors, the sealant will be forced back through the hole in the anchor and will be visible once the anchor is fully inserted. The screw then forces the lead and sealant into all the pores of the block, hopefully creating a strong watertight bond.