Geothermal vs Propane

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

I have a 40x64x16 pole building that is currently being erected. I am stuck between these 2 options for heat. Will have radiant in floor for heating.

With Geothermal...I'm looking at just over double the cost for install, mostly because I have to drill vertical wells due to space constraints. I have talked to many people regarding this, end everyone says go Geo as it pays for itself over time.

With the propane, I can install everything myself, which greatly reduces cost. I can even get a propane bioler at an extremely discounted price due to family in the business.

I am concerned about monthly heating costs with propane compared to the astronomical up front costs with Geo. Can anyone persuade me one way or another? Wood boiler not an option as I need something I can set it and forget it for taking off on snowmobile trips etc...

I will also add that barn will be very well insulated with R-21 in the walls and blown in R-38 in ceiling. Thanks.

 

[R7237]

I think you will find that Propane will be very reasonable as time goes on. It is a by product of the recent "Fracking" that is being done so often for crude production. The market is actually flooded with "wet gas" because of this new processing for crude and hopefully will keep it reasonably priced for a long time. Nothing against geothermal, but think the cost is a little crazy for the savings.

 

[thammel]

Do you have to drill wells for the geo? You can also do a closed buried loop system but you'll need a lot of ground space and need to bring a backhoe in to dig a long deep hole. With all you connections, it seems that this might be a cheaper way to go.

I have propane. It is expensive. We needed to replace the AC unit so I opted for an (air - not geothermal) heat pump and now have a hybrid system where the propane furnace only kicks in when the outside temp gets below 35F. This setup is saving me a lot of money.

For a new install and if you plan to stay put for a bunch of years, geothermal makes sense.

Tom

 

[EdT]

I looked into Geo several years ago when faced with replacing my HVAC. Unlike you, I'm in an area where cooling is more an issue than heating. The quote I got for geo was more than 4 times the cost of an ordinary AC/ propane heating system much of which was about a quarter of a mile of either wells or trenches. Around $10K vs. $40K+ for the geo. For me the payback with the geo would be far longer than was meaningful to me. It costs me <$3 a day for around 4 months of cooling so the payback sucked. So I went with a very ordinary system and it's fine. Don't forget that the equipment won't last forever either. Also, geo systems are not very commonplace so parts and service are more expensive and more difficult. Unless you plan to keep it warm all winter you may find that the radiant floor heat is slow to respond especially with the large building. Also a problem if you need to bolt something to the floor.

 

[jkeyser14]

I looked into Geo several years ago when faced with replacing my HVAC. Unlike you, I'm in an area where cooling is more an issue than heating. The quote I got for geo was more than 4 times the cost of an ordinary AC/ propane heating system much of which was about a quarter of a mile of either wells or trenches. Around $10K vs. $40K+ for the geo. For me the payback with the geo would be far longer than was meaningful to me. It costs me <$3 a day for around 4 months of cooling so the payback sucked. So I went with a very ordinary system and it's fine. Don't forget that the equipment won't last forever either. Also, geo systems are not very commonplace so parts and service are more expensive and more difficult. Unless you plan to keep it warm all winter you may find that the radiant floor heat is slow to respond especially with the large building. Also a problem if you need to bolt something to the floor.

There is a 30% federal tax credit along with state and utility rebates which often drop the price significantly. The loops are the expensive part and they generally have a 50 year warranty. Also, a system with a desuperheater will generate some of your hot water for you and lower the payback period even further.

We are extremely happy with our system, payback will be 7 years (4.5 more years from now).

One more added benefit most people don't think about is getting rid of your ugly and loud AC condensor that sits outside and makes the landscaping look bad. I wish all of my neighbors would make the switch to geo so I didn't have to hear their systems kicking in when I am outside enjoying the weather.

 

[50cal]

If cooling is not an issue, Look into solar. There may be some tax benefits there also. We used to have propane at our old home. Propane suppliers can be very fickle if you are not a big enough user. We now have geo and love it.
When going geo I think it would be a good idea to plan your instalation for sound proofing as some of the equipment moves the noise from the outside to the inside. We did sound proof.

 

[hidollartoys]

Where I live you can get a locked in price for your propane with an annual contract. You only pay for what you use and you are not subject to price fluctuations.

 

[[email protected]]

I'm installing radiant floors in my home right now and have been looking into geo and right now geo doesn't seem worth it. I have an existing well in my front yard I am not using, but will need a duplicate one to have enough loop. The well is about $20k. I have to burn a lot of propane to make that up.

 

[KinzeMech]

One more added benefit most people don't think about is getting rid of your ugly and loud AC condensor that sits outside and makes the landscaping look bad. I wish all of my neighbors would make the switch to geo so I didn't have to hear their systems kicking in when I am outside enjoying the weather.

Why on earth would you want to do that? Getting rid of the loud condenser assembly by bringing the noisy compressor INSIDE is not a win. I rented a house with a geothermal heat pump in the basement. It was awful to listen to. So much so that I got a window unit to use at night because it was quieter.


That said, noise is generally less of a concern for a shop application.

 

[jkeyser14]

Why on earth would you want to do that? Getting rid of the loud condenser assembly by bringing the noisy compressor INSIDE is not a win. I rented a house with a geothermal heat pump in the basement. It was awful to listen to. So much so that I got a window unit to use at night because it was quieter.


That said, noise is generally less of a concern for a shop application.

You can't hear our compressor unless you are sitting in the utility closet with the furnace. It's on an isolation pad and all of the duct work is insulated and decoupled from the furnace itself via a small rubber bellow section at the furnace.

Also, our system has multiple stages so the fan, pump, and compressor run only at the speed needed. The newer inverter systems are supposed to be even better because they are continuously variable instead of making step changes in speed.

 

[KinzeMech]

That could make a substantial difference. The unit in the house I rented was 20 years old, at least...

 

[Jackfre]

The first rule for building about anything, especially in the northern climes, is to put your first $ in the envelope. Make it tight and reduce the load.

Personally, I can't go geo. I think there are better more cost effective ways. I cannot dispute the folks who have it, but I sold/installed them back in the late 70's. Yes, the heat pump technology has changed, but you have discovered the Key problem with geo, which is the ground portion. I did a few systems with a glazed solar system heating a swimming pool and used the pool for the heat sink. Those worked well, but that was in the Napa Valley and I'll wager your climate to be a tad more...well, more!

The way to make propane cost effective is to maximize your storage and own it. If you go to the lp company and ask for a tank they will provide that tank. Given that they own the steel they will put in the "correct" for them size to be cost effective and they will gladly run out and fill you every two, three, four or five weeks throughout the season. You are then at the mercy of the market at the peak of the season. Not where you want to be. Check your local codes, buy a 1000, or 2 and bury them where you want them and fill when the price is low. When you need gas you call everyone in the neighborhood and get your best price. You mention that you can get a great mod con lp boiler right. I'd do that. I would also look at dividing up the space so you can manage the load. Some of the space may be happy at 50 while some may require 70. Manage your temps and you save there too. The solar suggestion is correct too. Put a good solar system on a radiant system and you get the very best solar system efficiency as you are running very low system temps to drive your slab. I think I used to use the 1.68gal/sq ft of flat plate collector.

Dinners on! Gotta run!

 

[jkeyser14]

The first rule for building about anything, especially in the northern climes, is to put your first $ in the envelope. Make it tight and reduce the load.

I agree and disagree with you. We replaced an oil furnace with geothermal for an instant 50% savings (heating oil was $4.65 a gallon at the time). No matter how much we addressed the envelope we wouldn't have seen the same return. Now that fuel prices are down 36% it makes more sense to put money into the envelope. However, the question is whether or not the prices will stay down. Especially considering the fact that he has to make a decision now, which will lock him into the furnace choice for the next 15+ years until it dies.

 

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

I cannot run horizontal loops as I simply would have to clearcut ALOT more of my property which I'm not real excited about. Plus my water table is realitivly high (90') and I've been told by everyone I talked to that it will work to my advantage with the vertical loops.

I had propane in my home, but have converted to a pellet stove as I was spending $500-$600/ month heating 2100sqft with forced air. That is something I simply cannot afford with this barn. I still have a 500G propane tank for my water heater that obviously doesn't put a dent in consumption compared to the furnace. I know the in floor radiant heat will be better that forced air as far as efficency goes. The up front Geo is just so much to swallow! I am aware of the 30% kickback Obama bucks, and that is conisdered in my qoutes and still little more than double the cost of propane.

The floor/shop will be kept at constant temps all winter long. There will be 2 zones as well (a 16x32 engine/trans build room).

Thanks so much for the ideas, keep them comming!!

 

[50cal]

Zone, you will need a serious thermal break between Zones, Because the higher temp zone will bleed into the lower.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have a 40x64x16 pole building that is currently being erected. I am stuck between these 2 options for heat. Will have radiant in floor for heating.

The real question you are asking is where, or maybe should say when will I break even. This is a complex question and very difficult to answers as the cost of electricity and propane will change in the future.

I can only tell you that my FIL had regular (non-geothermal) heat pump/forced air installed and his neighbor had propane and A/C installed. The neighbors winter bills are 3-4 time higher.

I am concerned about monthly heating costs with propane compared to the astronomical up front costs with Geo. Can anyone persuade me one way or another? Wood boiler not an option as I need something I can set it and forget it for taking off on snowmobile trips etc...

Personally, I would not even consider propane. Living "up north" and having a radiant heat floor negates one of heat pumps biggest advantage, "free" A/C.

You might want to look into a wood pellet boiler. Some of these have large automatic hoppers that don't have to be refilled for a week or more. Do some research in your area. If there is a factory making the pellets close by, and you have the dry storage space, you might be able to buy several months supply very cheaply.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Why on earth would you want to do that? Getting rid of the loud condenser assembly by bringing the noisy compressor INSIDE is not a win. I rented a house with a geothermal heat pump in the basement. It was awful to listen to.

My FIL's unit is no louder than a typical forced air furnace.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I looked into Geo several years ago when faced with replacing my HVAC. Unlike you, I'm in an area where cooling is more an issue than heating. The quote I got for geo was more than 4 times the cost of an ordinary AC/ propane heating system much of which was about a quarter of a mile of either wells or trenches. Around $10K vs. $40K+ for the geo. For me the payback with the geo would be far longer than was meaningful to me. It costs me <$3 a day for around 4 months of cooling so the payback sucked. So I went with a very ordinary system and it's fine.

That is an amazing low cost for cooling ! I think I pay more than that for A/C and I live in MI !

What are your propane costs for a year.

My FIL in in NC so he has a bit more heat and less cooling requirements than you do. He has a non-geothermal heat pump. There is a huge difference in his yearly electric bill versus his neighbor's electric/propane bill.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You might want to look into a wood pellet boiler.

The Pros and Cons of Wood Pellet Boilers

 

[EdT]

Oldwizard: Off the top of my head, I probably use about 1000 gallons of propane a year which covers heat, hot water (probably most of it) and cooking. As to cost, the last fillup I got was $1.96 a gallon. That should keep things going 'til well after Xmas. The price varies a lot during the year so I try to fill up during off peak times when I can.
WRT the AC cost, that's just looking at my power costs during the no AC months and comparing it to my summer power bills. The spread is, generally, < $100 a month so $3 a day or less. I like AC and generally keep things at a politically incorrect 72-74 especially if I'm working outside. We are on a peak rate billing schedule in the summer months which discourages us from using the AC late in the afternoon. We just get the house good and cool and let it coast through the expensive time. Generally not a problem. The house is 2700 sq. ft., 2 new AC units, 25 years old, and is well insulated, but not super insulated. Probably R-20 everywhere. Fairly tight, but I can see light around some of the door corners. When I was looking at GEO I figured that the most I could save on AC would be 50% so $1.50 a day for 120 days is $180 per year which didn't go a long way toward paying off the huge difference in up front costs. I don't know what the impact on the heat bill would have been since that would have been more related to how fancy the system was. Some I'm sure, but I still decided to go conventional. Another issue I had with the higher tech systems, GEO or not, is that they are relatively complex with lots of circuit boards and other components which can fail expensively. Reliability is related to how many things are there that can fail. Also harder to find someone to fix it unless you are inclined that way yourself.

 

[jkeyser14]

Oldwizard: Off the top of my head, I probably use about 1000 gallons of propane a year which covers heat, hot water (probably most of it) and cooking. As to cost, the last fillup I got was $1.96 a gallon. That should keep things going 'til well after Xmas. The price varies a lot during the year so I try to fill up during off peak times when I can.
WRT the AC cost, that's just looking at my power costs during the no AC months and comparing it to my summer power bills. The spread is, generally, < $100 a month so $3 a day or less. I like AC and generally keep things at a politically incorrect 72-74 especially if I'm working outside. We are on a peak rate billing schedule in the summer months which discourages us from using the AC late in the afternoon. We just get the house good and cool and let it coast through the expensive time. Generally not a problem. The house is 2700 sq. ft., 2 new AC units, 25 years old, and is well insulated, but not super insulated. Probably R-20 everywhere. Fairly tight, but I can see light around some of the door corners. When I was looking at GEO I figured that the most I could save on AC would be 50% so $1.50 a day for 120 days is $180 per year which didn't go a long way toward paying off the huge difference in up front costs. I don't know what the impact on the heat bill would have been since that would have been more related to how fancy the system was. Some I'm sure, but I still decided to go conventional. Another issue I had with the higher tech systems, GEO or not, is that they are relatively complex with lots of circuit boards and other components which can fail expensively. Reliability is related to how many things are there that can fail. Also harder to find someone to fix it unless you are inclined that way yourself.

You have some misconceptions about geothermal. There are no extra circuit boards, the pump and fan is simply wired to come on when the compressor runs. You also no longer have a long pair of refrigerant lines running outside to a condenser which are notorious leak points. Yes, geothermal has the in ground lines but they are buried deep and arent as susceptible to damage. On most new installs the lines have grout pumped around them to increase conductivity and provide additional protection.

The furnace can be serviced just like any normal furnace with the exception of your coolant loop which requires tools that go into a petes port to read the refrigerant temps and pressure. Also, a large number of HVAC contractors in my area are now certified to do geothermal work.

I recommend anyone interested in geothermal to go read posts at forum.geoexchange.org to get real user feedback instead of listening to people who dont have and dont want geothermal.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I recommend anyone interested in geothermal to go read posts at forum.geoexchange.org to get real user feedback ...

Link added. Just click !

 

[KinzeMech]

. You also no longer have a long pair of refrigerant lines running outside to a condenser which are notorious leak points.

Every installation I have seen, the compressor, condenser, evaporator, and air handler are all in one unit, indoors. The liquid loop is then plumbed to the inside.

 

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

Anyone have experience with wood pellet biolers?

 

[Jackfre]

Hearth.com for the pellet question.

 

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

Well, the best quote I got on the Geothermal install with 10 ground loops and 2-5 ton units (all based on the area I want to heat) was $29,000!! I'd be looking at a 17 year payback over the cost of using traditional propane based on todays current price of $2.20/gal. So that being said, NO THANKS!

So propane bioler it is. Installed with Rinnai bioler for $6,200.

 

[dlenkewich]

I've heard "rumors" of people who chose geo-thermal never getting their investment back because of costly repairs to the system 10-15 years down the road.

Unfortunatley like everything else, it comes down to cost and reliability. If it was the ultimate system, every new house would have it.

 

[ODIS]

$2.20/gal? Wow! Just paid $1.45/gal. on a fill of just <800 gal. Only one vendor to deliver the LP to your location? Also, with buried tank(s) they can be filled to 90% over the recommended 85% for above ground....so says the fellow that delivered the LP.

Whichever heat source you choose, most everyone with radiant floor heat in their shops, simply love how good it feels.

 

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

Definately going with radiant in floor, with a propane bioler setup. $2.20 is actually a good buy around here...

 

[Dragster Racer]

I am not sure that fracking affects the price of propane. I thought that was only natural gas. I could be wrong, but I thought propane was a by product of other drilling.
We know a couple who did new construction geo, and it has been a disaster. Good think it was new construction, because the ENTIRE lawn was a construction site. It ended up being undersized, and their payback at this point is never. To add capacity is horribly expensive, and another lawn. They are pretty much stuck. This probably doesn't represent all installations, but this one didn't work out.

 

[danski0224]

Well, the best quote I got on the Geothermal install with 10 ground loops and 2-5 ton units (all based on the area I want to heat) was $29,000!! I'd be looking at a 17 year payback over the cost of using traditional propane based on todays current price of $2.20/gal. So that being said, NO THANKS!

So propane bioler it is. Installed with Rinnai bioler for $6,200.

The flaw in your logic is "todays price". I never imagined that gas would be over $4 a gallon 17 years ago, and I thought $4.50 was expensive for race gas.

I don't see energy costs going down, until the Mr. Fusion is a reality.

One way of bringing the number of loops down is to drill deeper if possible. Less set-up time for the equipment.

In my area, geo setups are averaging 30% less operational costs than conventional gas forced air.

That doesn't eliminate the higher initial costs, and the numbers don't work for everyone, but if your propane costs double, you just halved your "payback", and you are assuming that your equipment won't need replacement or other work.

Most importantly, it isn't always about payback.

 

[danski0224]

We know a couple who did new construction geo, and it has been a disaster. Good think it was new construction, because the ENTIRE lawn was a construction site. It ended up being undersized, and their payback at this point is never. To add capacity is horribly expensive, and another lawn. They are pretty much stuck. This probably doesn't represent all installations, but this one didn't work out.

Hmm, a hack install? There's plenty of regular hack traditional installs happening.

Worse, it was residential new construction, where the typical (but not all)builder is squeezing every sub for an extra dollar of profit.

You can't "add capacity" to a properly sized traditional system without replacing equipment.

 

[theoldwizard1]

In my area, geo setups are averaging 30% less operational costs than conventional gas forced air.

That sounds low, unless you are looking at heating only. (You obviously don't want to cool a cement floor.)

I have heard numbers of over 50% savings for total operational cost over Nat gas forced air and A/C. Higher payback for propane.

 

[theoldwizard1]

So propane bioler it is. Installed with Rinnai bioler for $6,200.

I would recommend a "freeze proof" (propylene glycol ?) fluid in the boiler/pipes. If for what ever reason, something quits, you won't freeze up. A 100% solution is good to below -50F !!

 

[danski0224]

I would recommend a "freeze proof" (propylene glycol ?) fluid in the boiler/pipes. If for what ever reason, something quits, you won't freeze up. A 100% solution is good to below -50F !!

Piping and pumps need to be sized accordingly, plus some type of fluid treatment and monitoring is needed.

 

[blackdogdm]

I have a 36' x 54' x 16' located in southwest Michigan and I use a small direct vent LP water heater to heat my radiant floor. I looked at large boilers, but was convinced to invest the money into insulation instead of the boiler. I worked with the Radiant Floor Company in Vermont for the pump,connections and fittings. I have R40 blown in the attic and spray foam in the walls. Under the concrete and around the outside I have vapor barrier and 2" high density foam. I keep my barn at 48-50 deg all the time and kick the heat up to 60-65 when I will be working on a project. You can go from a sweatshirt to a t-shirt in about 1 1/2 hours. The heater is 150,000 btu and doesn't seem to have to work hard to keep up. I went LP so I could set the system and not have to mess with it if I was gone. total cost for materials was approx. $6,000 for the entire system including the underfloor insulation. I did all the installation with some help from my dad and a few friends.

 

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

The flaw in your logic is "todays price". I never imagined that gas would be over $4 a gallon 17 years ago, and I thought $4.50 was expensive for race gas.

I don't see energy costs going down, until the Mr. Fusion is a reality.

One way of bringing the number of loops down is to drill deeper if possible. Less set-up time for the equipment.

In my area, geo setups are averaging 30% less operational costs than conventional gas forced air.

That doesn't eliminate the higher initial costs, and the numbers don't work for everyone, but if your propane costs double, you just halved your "payback", and you are assuming that your equipment won't need replacement or other work.

Most importantly, it isn't always about payback.

There is no flaw. As I said, "based on todays price." Obviously, there is a garuntee the price will go up, thus changing the ball game. I got prices as high as $34,000. So I AM DEFINATELY NOT going geothermal.

 

[Jackfre]

Which model Rinnai are you going with? Heat only or combi? If combi, what are your DHW requirements. The reason I ask is that whenever a combi is sold I always tell the contractor to lead with DHW outputs for that unit. If sufficient, then good. If not, then seek the right options. You will like that boiler.