SCH 40 PVC for Shop Air

[BarnFab]

Now before people start yes I have done a search and yes I am aware of some people opinion but I thought I would ask anyway. I am also well aware of internet knowledge and how many people portray to have a clue when in fact they just want to jump on the "Don't do that you will die boat"

You can get SCH 40 PVC which is rated to 400 PSI which is well in excess of what shop air is run at. I have seen people saying it shatters blah blah blah and I have seen many real shops who run it and have done for many many years without issues. Air is inert and at 150 PSI isn't going to store enough kinetic presure etc to go even close to 400 PSI.

So to the question, does anyone have any first hand experience with issues ? I just can't see that in this day of litigation and product liability insurance any manufacturer would stamp their product with safe working presure of 400 PSI if it couldn't do it safely.

It seems like a clean and effective way to push air around the shop, doesn't rust, doesn't break down and doesn't seat.

Comments ?

 

[larry_g]

Sounds like your mind is made up, go for it.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Stuart in MN]

Besides the opinions, many of us have posted facts.

PVC is rated for liquids, which are noncompressible. On the other hand, air is compressible - so, if the PVC is damaged the air will blow out and expand greatly. The problem is PVC pipe isn't ductile, like steel or copper; it will shatter instead of simply bending. The end result is the rapidly expanding air will blow sharp shards of plastic all over the place.

Yes, I have personally seen it happen. Fortunately I was in the next room when the PVC pipe exploded, but it sounded like a bomb going off. Afterwards there were shards stuck in the walls.

If you go to any PVC manufacturer's website and look at their technical specifications, they will specifically say their product is not designed for use with compressed air.

 

[Stephenw]

That 400 psi stamp is for liquids.

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

 

[PT Doc]

Oh boy.

 

[sberry]

Air is inert and at 150 PSI isn't going to store enough kinetic presure etc to go even close to 400 PSI.

You are welcome to explain this further.

 

[BarnFab]

If my mind was made up then I wouldn't have posted.

Besides the opinions, many of us have posted facts.

PVC is rated for liquids, which are noncompressible. On the other hand, air is compressible - so, if the PVC is damaged the air will blow out and expand greatly. The problem is PVC pipe isn't ductile, like steel or copper; it will shatter instead of simply bending. The end result is the rapidly expanding air will blow sharp shards of plastic all over the place.

Yes, I have personally seen it happen. Fortunately I was in the next room when the PVC pipe exploded, but it sounded like a bomb going off. Afterwards there were shards stuck in the walls.

If you go to any PVC manufacturer's website and look at their technical specifications, they will specifically say their product is not designed for use with compressed air.

Thanks, that is what i was after

That 400 psi stamp is for liquids.

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

Good link makes it pretty clear.

Off to buy copper I go.

Thanks

 

[clcartwr]

I have personally seen it explode also. We had a shop where I used to work that was not heated and during one of the coldest days of winter someone shut the roll up door harder than usual and the PVC piping on that wall exploded. Seems to get really brittle at cold temperatures. I personally would not use PVC but I have also known shops that have used it for years without incident.

 

[BarnFab]

You are welcome to explain this further.

Lol yeah it was an awesome use of a wrong word but at the time I was in hgome depot looking at the cost of that stuff and was thinking how cheap and easy it would be to use but that I knew I shouldn't

 

[samert111]

I have an idea. For $10 or less you can probably build a 10' section of 3/4" PVC pipe to test what's going to happen when the pipe ruptures under pressure. Whack it with a hammer and see what happens when it ruptures. Just make sure you use the appropriate PPE and also please video it so we can finally put this issue to rest.

If you're not willing to do this then I think you have your answer.

On edit:
Opps, sorry I see you were convinced otherwise since I started to compose my response. I still would like to see video of what happens.

 

[Jack Olsen]

Here's a simpler way to check the viability of this. The PVC manufacturer's association says not to use it with compressed gas. OSHA also says not to use it with compressed gas.

There is a type of PVC that is made for use with compressed gasses. But it's not the stuff you see for sale cheap at the big box stores.

I'm pretty sure PVC also releases hazardous fumes in a fire.

 

[allinon72]

Use the correct material and do it right the first time.

 

[Nighttrain]

Good choice to go with copper. Save the PVC for a potato gun.

 

[ratdoggy]

Where is that face-palm picture I saved for just this reason? Oh here it is........

 

[RVDan]

What about this guy who says you can't use copper?
http://garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2038021&postcount=33

 

[srmofo]

if you are dead set on going cheap, run a large main line into the ceiling with black pipe, then branch from it with PEX. At least it wont blow shrapnel all over the shop in the unlikely event of failure.

Personally I dont see the point it running air lines in a shop that is less than 50' any direction, or is not segregated with walls. To each their own though, its not my problem

 

[Jack90210]

Good link makes it pretty clear.

Off to buy copper I go.

Thanks

I predict 500 posts easy, most of whose authors will not have read the above.

 

[BD1]

RIP ! You can throw rocks at glass houses too.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Here's a simpler way to check the viability of this. The PVC manufacturer's association says not to use it with compressed gas. OSHA also says not to use it with compressed gas.

There is a type of PVC that is made for use with compressed gasses. But it's not the stuff you see for sale cheap at the big box stores.

I'm pretty sure PVC also releases hazardous fumes in a fire.

Actually the stuff that is approved for compressed air is not PVC but rather it is ABS based. ABS is a much softer stuff that simply ruptures and splits and does not shatter. Nibco made Chemair for a while, but ceased, and now a company called IPEX makes a stiff or rigid pipe that is either a pex or ABS based material that is OSHA approved for air, plus all the fittings. It cuts and glues like PVC but is metric sized to keep it from being interchanged with other pipes. Also is the correct OSHA color (blue?) for air.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

What about this guy who says you can't use copper?
http://garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2038021&postcount=33

Basically the post you link to is full of BS. The guy does not know what he is talking about. He says Stainless is used for compressed air in control and instrument, and where I work, there is a fair amount of small copper used for such purposes. His claim that copper is "fragile and thinwall" is also BS, one only needs to look at the specs in the Copper Tube Handbook by the Copper Development Association to get the real facts on Copper tube and pipe.

http://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf

Charles

 

[RECox286]

Just thought I would add my initials to the 'read-it-list'.

Uncle Bob

 

[jwith68]

 

[buzz4041]

Okay here you go first hand experience. I installed SCH 40 PVC in my shop. It was put together and supported correctly. About 2 years after install I had a blow out and yes shrapnel flying over my shop. Luckily for me my hot rod was out of the shop at the time. I know guy's that have had it in their shop for 25 years but never again for me all it took was 1 blowout for me to learn.

 

[TheShrine]

I predict 500 posts easy, most of whose authors will not have read the above.

Agreed. Add OSB to the discussion and the count doubles!!:

 

[Rodhotz]

No BS just real world. I have had PVC air lines for the past 30 years and have put it through just about anything you could imagine and have NEVER had it shatter or break from fatigue, temp or anything but my stupidity. I just did my new shops with it and after figuring out the cost with black pipe, copper and gal pipe it won out again. I also run mine at 175 psi. We get down to single digit temps in the winter and over 115 in the summer. I had a friend do his in copper and he was always blowing it apart, he pulled it and went with PVC and has had it for the past 10 years with no problems. I have had air lines get caught on bumpers and pull the line off the wall and break the pipe and still no shatter. Maybe luck maybe not you decide. Also i know at least a dozen or more guys that run it with no problems. OK flame away!!

 

[StaggeringGoat]

No BS just real world. I have had PVC air lines for the past 30 years and have put it through just about anything you could imagine and have NEVER had it shatter or break from fatigue, temp or anything but my stupidity. I just did my new shops with it and after figuring out the cost with black pipe, copper and gal pipe it won out again. I also run mine at 175 psi. We get down to single digit temps in the winter and over 115 in the summer. I had a friend do his in copper and he was always blowing it apart, he pulled it and went with PVC and has had it for the past 10 years with no problems. I have had air lines get caught on bumpers and pull the line off the wall and break the pipe and still no shatter. Maybe luck maybe not you decide. Also i know at least a dozen or more guys that run it with no problems. OK flame away!!

You're kidding, right?

I smoke and I don't have cancer - I guess we can conclude that smoking is indeed safe after all, right?

 

[nehog]

You are welcome to explain this further.

Probably a lack of engineering abilities or a brain fart!

 

[NUTTSGT]

I have PVC airlines in my garage. They have been in there going on close to ten years. I put the airline together way before I was a member here and everybody was doing it (must be safe right ). I have to reglue about 3-4 fitting as they started to leak.


That being said, just being honest, I'm planning on replacing those airlines this winter. I have been gathering my fittings a few at a time. Yesterday I picked up 4- 45° fitting, 5- 90° fittings and 2 ball valves. I have a few more ball valves to buy and then a couple of unions. I'll purchase the black pipe all in one shot.


Now, this reminds me. . .. a question.

 

[EOC_Jason]

There was one guy in the same business park as me that ran PVC for his air lines... After maybe a year (or less) I think he gave up because the line kept breaking. I think it might still be hanging on the back wall, I'll have to go look this week and if it's still there with a blowout I'll snap some pics...

Use black pipe... Get it from a plumbing supply place (along with your fittings), the big box stores will overcharge the **** out of you for the same thing. Take a pipe cutter with you too as usually they sell them in long sections and you might have to cut it up some to fit it in your vehicle.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Use black pipe... Get it from a plumbing supply place (along with your fittings), the big box stores will overcharge the **** out of you for the same thing. Take a pipe cutter with you too as usually they sell them in long sections and you might have to cut it up some to fit it in your vehicle.

I'll be using black pipe this time. There's no plumbing supply places local, although I probably could have bought them from my neighbor. He's a plumbing/HVAC guy, I doubt I'd get a bill from him though and I don't want something for nothing. I've been picking picking up pieces as I make a trip to pick up other stuff for the garage, a few pieces at a time. Sometimes that 5-10 bucks at a time makes it alot more painless and easier to mentally go ahead with a project.

 

[EOC_Jason]

^^^ You know, if you are going to buy a bunch of material you *can* get a quote from Home Depot / Lowes. Sometimes you can get a price break / discount, sometimes you can't. Also they usually will honor competitor coupons (I get lowes % off coupons all the time, but I almost always shop at HD and they accept them without question).

 

[Will67]

We should Chevy vs ford discussion too. So the post count get real high. Can't rely on just OSB vs drywall discussion

 

[mechanic217]

To each his own , but I was standing about 40 feet away from a pvc airline when it let go, middle of summer no impact to the line, and even over the tablesaw I was running it sounded like a shotgun blast, I will never use it ,only copper or aluminum, the tubing is cheap compared to the cost of hospital bills.YMMV

 

[Rodhotz]

You're kidding, right?

I smoke and I don't have cancer - I guess we can conclude that smoking is indeed safe after all, right?

Does it sound like i am kidding? To each their own.

 

[Al Bundy]

No BS just real world. I have had PVC air lines for the past 30 years and have put it through just about anything you could imagine and have NEVER had it shatter or break from fatigue, temp or anything but my stupidity. I just did my new shops with it and after figuring out the cost with black pipe, copper and gal pipe it won out again. I also run mine at 175 psi. We get down to single digit temps in the winter and over 115 in the summer. I had a friend do his in copper and he was always blowing it apart, he pulled it and went with PVC and has had it for the past 10 years with no problems. I have had air lines get caught on bumpers and pull the line off the wall and break the pipe and still no shatter. Maybe luck maybe not you decide. Also i know at least a dozen or more guys that run it with no problems. OK flame away!!

I can see your point. My safety and the safety of others that might be in my shop sure as hell isn't worth a hundred extra dollars. I'm going to stop wasting my gas dropping off waste oil too and just dump it on the ground. I know guys that did that for 30 years and they never got poisoned. Come to think of it, those damn smoke detectors are just wasting electricity. I haven't had a fire in 20+ years might as well get rid of them.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

If my mind was made up then I wouldn't have posted.



Thanks, that is what i was after



Good link makes it pretty clear.

Off to buy copper I go.

Thanks

No. THANK YOU !

 

[2CRUZ]

Ya know I thought about for a long time when I built my new garage and I figured I don't have a pipe cuter or a pipe threader and the coast was cheaper so I went with PVC. Mabey later on I'll up grade to black pipe but for now it was just too hard to get done. I have my compressor only set at 100 lb. pressure. The only worry I have is that the main line goes over the furnace exhaust pipe, I figure if it is going to blow that is where it will happen.
May not be right Guys but you have to do what you have to do.

 

[Rodhotz]

I can see your point. My safety and the safety of others that might be in my shop sure as hell isn't worth a hundred extra dollars. I'm going to stop wasting my gas dropping off waste oil too and just dump it on the ground. I know guys that did that for 30 years and they never got poisoned. Come to think of it, those damn smoke detectors are just wasting electricity. I haven't had a fire in 20+ years might as well get rid of them.

Like i said you do what you want and believe and i will do as i will. I have have the proof as i am sure you do not have. yes we used to put oil on the dirt roads for years with no problems. and the sky is falling also.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

May not be right Guys but you have to do what you have to do.

Somebody held a gun to your head and made you plumb your garage with air? You couldn't go down to harbor freight and spend $9 on an air hose instead?

Just remember, OSHA says PVC air lines are illegal. They don't say that because they have something against PVC manufacturers. They say that because it's dangerous and stupid.

 

[914wilhelm]

PVC is rated for 400# at room temp. The rating decreases drastically with heat. When you compress air it gets hot. I had a small automotive air compressor with nylon airlines coming right off the compressor. The lines would get hot, melt and blow out. The following chart will show how fast the pressure rating degrades at temp.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermoplastic-pipes-temperature-strength-d_794.html