picts of your in-floor heat set ups.

[goneflyin2002]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Hey folks,
here's my setup. Quite a learning experience, and many thanks to all the posters on this board for insight and tips.
It's not a running system yet, as I didn't have time to work on it all summer pretty much.
Time now for installing boiler or tankless WH, not decided.
Thanks,
D

 

[jlckmj]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

OK,
I finally got my system in and running. I poured the garage slab about a year ago, never got around to closing it in before winter so it sat until the end of summer before we finished it.

My system is as simple as it gets, thanks to some great advice from fellow GB members ANTHONY666, and FASTBACK, to name a couple. I really appreciate their time going back and forth with PM's and or posts. Also, even though I did not realize it, just reading through these posts helps a great deal with the basic understanding of the systems.

I have 1 zone, 4 loops, about 200 to 220 foot each heating 864 sq. ft. I used a domestic tank water heater for a source, YEA I know, I'm gonna burn in hell, blow up the garage and it will never last. It was FREE, and only a year old so I am going to take my chances. Besides, I can buy a half dozen water heaters for what some of those boilers sell for. (I'm a cheap smack!)

Anyway, I fired it up tonight about 6PM, and played with it bleeding the air out, but once it was pretty much bled out, I started to get heat. Within 3 hours it had warmed the slab up by ten degrees and the water was cold to begin with.

I turned it off for the night just to make sure it has no air left in the system, I would hate to burn up a new pump. I will start it up again this weekend when I have time to be in the garage to monitor it for a few hours.

It is not fancy, but it seems like it will work just fine.

EDIT!
SINCE THIS PICTURE WAS TAKEN, I HAVE REPLACED THE WATER HEATER SHOWN WITH A POWER VENT WATER HEATER. I COULD NOT GET THE DRAFT STYLE TO EXHAUST THE SPENT GAS, THE CO DETECTOR WAS CONSTANTLY GOING OFF BECAUSE THE GARAGE IS INSULATED TOO TIGHTLY TO GET A DRAFT GOING. (AT LEAST THE FIRST ONE WAS FREE)

Jim

 

[wedge40]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

OK,

It is not fancy, but it seems like it will work just fine.

Jim

Thats the important thing, it seems to work. There are lots of people who have systems set up like yours and they work for years. I'm curious, what circulator pump are your using?

Wedge

 

[jlckmj]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Wedge,
It is a Bell&Gossett, it was recommended by one of the pex/equipment suppliers that I bought parts from. I don't have the model number right now, but it is a three speed pump so I will have a little flexibility dialing it all in.
Jim

 

[Highbeam]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

It is not fancy, but it seems like it will work just fine.

Jim

Thanks for the post. Many of us prefer the small and simple. So tell us about your parts and layout. I see the somehwat fancy manifolds for loop adjusting, did you adjust each loop for even temps? What temp does your water heater run at? Seems that full 120 degree water being poured into the floor, at least until the tank empties, would be too hot.

 

[Highbeam]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Hey folks,
here's my setup. [/IMG]

Awesome setup. What size conduit bends did you use?

 

[wedge40]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

I've read it before, and I'm pretty sure I'm right.
I've got 1/2" pex, I should buy 3/4" pvc conduit elbow?

Wedge

 

[jlckmj]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

WEDGE,
The pump is the Bell & Gossett NRF-25, it is a 1/15hp, 3 speed pump

HIGHBEAM,
I used 1 inch conduit el's coming though the floor, 3/4 would probably work as well.

The water heater is set on low, it looks to be putting out about 100* to 110*water.


The manifold was purchased from the pex tubing store. The following is a cut and paste of everything the manifold has.

Each radiant heat manifold package (set) has (1) supply manifold, (1) return manifold, all factory pre-assembled, pressure tested and includes other vital system components such as manual balancing valves and flow indicators for every circuit, automatic air vent on each manifold, drain valves, shut-off ball valves, temperature gauges and mounting brackets

After I started to add up all of what it had to offer, I decided that I would not save much by making my own system, so I bought the the pre-made one. The bleeders on the manifolds really helped bleeding the system.

Here is what I have invested (in round numbers) in plumbing above the floor.

water heater $0
Bell and Gossett EASB-JR air eliminator $80
Bell and Gossett WRF-25 pump $75
Air pressure tank $25
4-branch manifold $150
Pressure gauge (Ace hdw) $15
Line voltage thermostat (Ace Hdw) $17
I had most of the pipe and fittings $50-$75


So far, I have not dialed anything in as far as adjusting the flow valves etc. I have it all wide open, and they are flowing very close to the same. I will have to wait for the cold weather to settle in before I start fine tuning anything.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Nice looking work.

Those are short loops?

I can't see the mixing valve or by-pass?

120°F? Did you carpet the garage?

Tying tube to wire quadruples installation time and using an uncoiler can cut it in half.

Wire on the bottom of any slab serves no purpose.

Just some thought for the curious.

 

[tdkkart]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

I can't see the mixing valve or by-pass?

Can you explain what the purpose of a mixing valve or bypass would be in system pictured?? It's a closed system, what needs mixing or bypassing??
I have a very similar system, has no mixing going on, works very well.

Yes, 120* might be a bit warm, but I bet it won't maintain 120* input temp for long unless that water heater has a big burner under it.

 

[tdkkart]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Works well for now. Plan on a new water heater every 5 years or so............

Well not that I care, mine is on a 7KW instant electric heater.

So back to the mixing valve question.............not arguing, just don't see the purpose of a mixing or bypass in this type system. Please educate.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

It looks like you stapled the pex directly to the foam board, I don't like that idea as individual studies have shown that suspending the pex higher up in the slab improves heat distribution.

The margin is very small in a 4" slab and not worth the extra effort.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

OK,
I finally got my system in and running. I poured the garage slab about a year ago, never got around to closing it in before winter so it sat until the end of summer before we finished it.

My system is as simple as it gets, thanks to some great advice from fellow GB members ANTHONY666, and FASTBACK, to name a couple. I really appreciate their time going back and forth with PM's and or posts. Also, even though I did not realize it, just reading through these posts helps a great deal with the basic understanding of the systems.

I have 1 zone, 4 loops, about 200 to 220 foot each heating 864 sq. ft. I used a domestic tank water heater for a source, YEA I know, I'm gonna burn in hell, blow up the garage and it will never last. It was FREE, and only a year old so I am going to take my chances. Besides, I can buy a half dozen water heaters for what some of those boilers sell for. (I'm a cheap smack!)

Anyway, I fired it up tonight about 6PM, and played with it bleeding the air out, but once it was pretty much bled out, I started to get heat. Within 3 hours it had warmed the slab up by ten degrees and the water was cold to begin with.

I turned it off for the night just to make sure it has no air left in the system, I would hate to burn up a new pump. I will start it up again this weekend when I have time to be in the garage to monitor it for a few hours.

It is not fancy, but it seems like it will work just fine.

Jim

Works well for now. Plan on a new water heater every 5 years or so. Water heaters are not made for sustained flue gas condensation. I am sure there will be the noted exception but we have replaced many.

If the design temperature is as low as it should be on the typical in-slab radiant floor, the water heater is going to condense and eat itself alive. This can be a serious safety/health issue as the flue rusts shut and the gas/air mix is compromised. More especially true of the ultra-type construction typical in pole and steel building with few windows seldom meeting indoor air quality standards or the standard requirement for combustion air from outside the building.

If you are going to DIY gas-fired appliances, you will want to no more than your average heating contractor, since you naturally lack the experience that saves most of us when we make the occasional mistake.

I wouldn't like you to get hurt.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Well not that I care, mine is on a 7KW instant electric heater.

So back to the mixing valve question.............not arguing, just don't see the purpose of a mixing or bypass in this type system. Please educate.

Sorry, T. Mixed up with the other system. No need for a by-pass on electric boilers unless you are using it to control minimum flow, such as with mult-zone systems. We do however use outdoor reset on all of our radiant floors over 1000 sq.ft. or so. More comfort. lower fuel consumption.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Really, I don't think so, that pump is pushing into the sprirovent, they even point out how that is not the ideal design.

The pump is pulling away from the Spirovent (and more importantly the point of no-pressure-change) and into the low-mass condensing boiler, which is in fact "ideal".

 

[tdkkart]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Really??????

Yes, really. Notice the recommended orientation in section 4 of the instructions.

http://www.us.grundfos.com/Web/Download.nsf/Pages/6B8E29A2188C353E0825694C00675E13/$File/L-UP-TL-042.pdf


While you can mount the pump horizontally, it is not the recommeneded method, and I have heard of them causing issues. All one has to do is to look at the impeller portion of the pump body to realize that it would be quite easy to have an air pocket in a pump mounted horizontally.

Not everything comes out of a book, some things take common sense.

 

[long handles]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Works well for now. Plan on a new water heater every 5 years or so. Water heaters are not made for sustained flue gas condensation. I am sure there will be the noted exception but we have replaced many.

If the design temperature is as low as it should be on the typical in-slab radiant floor, the water heater is going to condense and eat itself alive. This can be a serious safety/health issue as the flue rusts shut and the gas/air mix is compromised. More especially true of the ultra-type construction typical in pole and steel building with few windows seldom meeting indoor air quality standards or the standard requirement for combustion air from outside the building.

If you are going to DIY gas-fired appliances, you will want to no more than your average heating contractor, since you naturally lack the experience that saves most of us when we make the occasional mistake.

I wouldn't like you to get hurt.

Malarkey.

I'm on my second year of using a water heater as a boiler in an open system.

My gas water heater cycles no more in a day than it would if it were used to provide household domestic hot water.

The system I copied from the guy down road, has been in service for 8 years.

I might add that my house had an Apollo heating system from 1994-2011. What's an Apollo? A water heater with a side loop that provides hot water to an air exchanger to household heating.

 

[long handles]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

OK,

I have 1 zone, 4 loops, about 200 to 220 foot each heating 864 sq. ft. I used a domestic tank water heater for a source, YEA I know, I'm gonna burn in hell, blow up the garage and it will never last. It was FREE, and only a year old so I am going to take my chances. Besides, I can buy a half dozen water heaters for what some of those boilers sell for. (I'm a cheap smack!)

I'm on the second year of similar setup.

Mine is an open system that supplies hot water to the floor radiant and to the shop bathroom / deep sink. I kill the pump / thermostat circuit in the summer @ the panel.

My water heater stays on the low setting and has kept the shop @ 55 degrees down to -50.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Yes, really.

While you can mount the pump horizontally, it is not the recommended method, and I have heard of them causing issues. All one has to do is to look at the impeller portion of the pump body to realize that it would be quite easy to have an air pocket in a pump mounted horizontally.

Not everything comes out of a book, some things take common sense.

Experience, science and common sense should not be confused. Hydronics is not common nor do many have experience with its various aspects. "Books" are really one of the only ways most will be able to understand the basics of this specialty.

Before we debate basic pump installation you may want to bone-up before confusing others and embarrassing yourself. I would start with Boyles Law and perhaps Henry's Law and than go on to the more specific applications of the basic physics to the proper application and installation of small hydronic wet-rotor circulators.

Here are a couple of good references from which you should note the vertical orientation of a the shaft - and the horizontal orientation of the impeller on the commercial dry rotor pumps pictured. See attachment.

It is the orientation of the pumps shaft that is important and then mostly in low pressure hydronic systems since cavitation (air pockets?) is not an issue in the typical potable water system of 50psi or more. In such case the shaft may very well be vertical and is an accepted practice for DHW recirculation for example.

It is generally good idea to install a wet rotor circulator in the supply side of a hydronic system if the pump is installed on the vertical (shaft still horizontal), as air will like to go up through the pump rather than finding its way to the suction side and causing mischief.

In short, as long as the shaft of a small wet-rotor pump is in a horizontal orientation, all will function as designed.

chrome://newtabhttp//www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnet.grundfos.com%2FAppl%2FWebCAPS%2FGrundfosliterature-3835337.pdf&ei=c-2CUMHTMoSnigL7o4CACQ&usg=AFQjCNHh9FYnBuEW8Luhm0xnKevtyGQKlw&sig2=Oemg4tPCcGCT9wdsp0SV4w


chrome://newtabhttp//www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wilo-usa.com%2Ffileadmin%2Fus%2FBrochures%2Fbro_ECORFC_1111.pdf&ei=1weDUOeoJcmpiQKVs4HgBg&usg=AFQjCNG3NkbbWL51kDIDuH8h06nGJ72XsQ&sig2=ke79OyDBHddxYb9P3EF__Q

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Malarkey.

I'm on my second year of using a water heater as a boiler in an open system.

My gas water heater cycles no more in a day than it would if it were used to provide household domestic hot water.

The system I copied from the guy down road, has been in service for 8 years.

I might add that my house had an Apollo heating system from 1994-2011. What's an Apollo? A water heater with a side loop that provides hot water to an air exchanger to household heating.

We use many water heaters for "boilers" but with some care. Most frankly, are condensing water heaters, but we have a few very small systems running off a dual purpose or existing water heater (never open) and find them adequate as long as they are not allowed to condense for extended periods.

As for cycling; I don't think I addressed the issue but the output of the water heater and the load attached thereto would dictate the cycling rate.

 

[tdkkart]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

We use many water heaters for "boilers" but with some care. Most frankly, are condensing water heaters, but we have a few very small systems running off a dual purpose or existing water heater (never open) and find them adequate as long as they are not allowed to condense for extended periods.

Ah geez!! Flip-Flop-Flip-Flop, we need to start calling you Mitt.

"Warning, that'll never work, but we do it all the time anyway."

You've done nothing but bad mouth using water heaters as "boilers" ever since you started on this forum, just told us that a water heater would destroy itself in short order using it as a heat source, and then you admit to using "many" of them??

Good Grief...........go back to polishing the licenses hanging on your wall.

 

[sublimate]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

1200 sqft 1200ft tubing, 80 gal. HWT. Love it.

I didn't know you could mount an expansion tank upside down like that?

 

[tdkkart]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

I didn't know you could mount an expansion tank upside down like that?

Well, you CAN do most anything you want, doesn't make it right though.......

 

[long handles]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

It's probably wrong, but it's way I did mine. About the only way I could incorporate one in my system.

But hey, I'm using a water heater for a boiler, have welded with a coat hanger, used a chewing gum wrapper on a blown car fuse in an emergency, so what do I know?

 

[wedge40]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

It's probably wrong, but it's way I did mine. About the only way I could incorporate one in my system.

But hey, I'm using a water heater for a boiler, have welded with a coat hanger, used a chewing gum wrapper on a blown car fuse in an emergency, so what do I know?

Got buddy who did the gum wrapper thing years ago. It worked fine for a month or two, then one day he's driving along and whole wiring harness burned up. He replaced the wiring harness and drove the car till the floor board rusted through.

Wedge

 

[goneflyin2002]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Awesome setup. What size conduit bends did you use?

I've read it before, and I'm pretty sure I'm right.
I've got 1/2" pex, I should buy 3/4" pvc conduit elbow?

Wedge

I used 3/4" PVC elbow conduit (I think it was about 6" radius elbows), it was easy to pull the 1/2" pex thru, then clamped the elbows to the plywood on the wall.
I ended up needing short extensions on the top ends of each elbow.

Don

 

[wedge40]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Done did you layout your pex on the fly or did you have someone create a "map" for you. I ended up using a 30 day free trial of loopCAD. Took a day or two to get it figured out, but now I'm satisfied. All loops are under 300ft and within 10% of each other. Now I just have to wait for my contractor so show up and we can get some cement in there. I'm like a little kid waiting for Christmas.

Wedge

 

[goneflyin2002]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Hey Wedge,
I did just like you, LoopCad trial. Nice program, made it easy for me.
I know what you mean by kid waiting for Christmas, me too!
Still waiting for a boiler-- and it's starting to get cold around here!

Don

 

[wedge40]

Oh I wont have heat hooked to it till next year at the earliest. . I'm building as I get money together. Next summer will be insulation and sealing the building, then maybe next fall I'll get water heater and rest of the system.

Wedge

 

[BIMMERBOYZ]

I am curious, at what size of garage does radiant heating lose it's benefits to forced air?

I am planning a 25x50 garage with a salon(for the wife) on top. I could force air the room above and radiant heat the garage. Just trying to figure out where everyone decided to go the radiant route vs forced air. The garage wont be detached it's an addition to the house.

 

[long handles]

I am curious, at what size of garage does radiant heating lose it's benefits to forced air?

I am planning a 25x50 garage with a salon(for the wife) on top. I could force air the room above and radiant heat the garage. Just trying to figure out where everyone decided to go the radiant route vs forced air. The garage wont be detached it's an addition to the house.

A friend that used to work at Caterpillar says the factory was floor radiant. So that's gotta be some sq footage.

As for radiant? It's nice laying on a warm floor opposed to a cold floor. Some people claim that humans get their sense of warmth (or cold) through our feet. I dunno.

You could do radiant in both floors of your shop.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Pumps can be mounted in any direction except for the motor pointing down, it makes no difference at all to the pump or how it works in the system

Point down or up. The axis has to be in the horizontal. Just look at the pictures fellas.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

Ah geez!! Flip-Flop-Flip-Flop, we need to start calling you Mitt.

"Warning, that'll never work, but we do it all the time anyway."

You've done nothing but bad mouth using water heaters as "boilers" ever since you started on this forum, just told us that a water heater would destroy itself in short order using it as a heat source, and then you admit to using "many" of them??

Good Grief...........go back to polishing the licenses hanging on your wall.

I had a feeling you haven't been paying attention.

First, it is the way you install dedicated water heaters for radiant floor heating systems that matters. Secondly, is not water heaters in general that I am against, it is their use as primary heating appliances that I frown upon (and must be in good company, since all the manufacturers and code officials feel the same way).

More specifically, I have often relayed my confusion over the great enthusiasm for "tank-less" water heaters as a dedicated heat source (no DHW) for radiant floors, since they lack comfort making and fuel saving weather sensitive controls, standard on all condensing boilers. If your shop (more accurately, your load) is big enough for a tankless water heater, you should buy condensing boiler. If you already misapplied a tankless water heater in your own building, you naturally have an emotional tie to your decision than no one can break.

You can call me Mitt.

Why should I pay someone to screw up my stuff when I can do it myself for free..........

So you try to help others screw up theirs for free also?

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

She will be jealous. She might want AC though, so a Mini-spit might be the answer. If designed right, you can get DHW, radiate both levels and save a lot on fuel and materials.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

This is a potable water expansion tank. The bigger ones are floor mounted and fed from the bottom. The orientation doesn't matter. You don't want to confuse this with a space heating expansion tank, which may rust if not placed bottom down as shown in most installation manuals.

 

[Highbeam]

Re: picts of your in floor heat set ups.

This is a potable water expansion tank. The bigger ones are floor mounted and fed from the bottom. The orientation doesn't matter. You don't want to confuse this with a space heating expansion tank, which may rust if not placed bottom down as shown in most installation manuals.

Is there any problem with using a potable water expansion tank in a closed radiant floor heating system?

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

No problem. Potable water expansion tanks, unlike convention diaphragm expansion tanks, will withstand all kinds of oxygen-rich water. They cost more and generally pre-charged to higher pressures, but if you match tank pressure to heating system design static pressure, you would, in theory, have a better tank.

And hey, thanks for asking.

 

[Fastback]

Does anyone here remember asking badger for his guidance? This sub-forum and the floor sub-forum have been overrun with so called experts that have really taken away from what we have all built here. I for one like my $200 tankless electric water heater for my 720sf floor, and anyone that thinks its "better" to spend hundreds or even thousands more just to get a unit with the word "boiler" on it may not be the best person to shill out advice.

 

[Wastedwagesracing]

As for one who is planning on in floor heat I do appreciate his comments and incite.

 

[Fastback]

But that's not what this thread is for, he can start his own thread where he critics everyone's stuff and how he would have don't it differently. If everyone listened to him they would spend three times as much as they need, and he has posted sketchy info in the past, so feel free to use his advice. Many haven already discounted him completely.


Who wants to post pics of there system in this thread if someone calls everything wrong? He's killing the nature of this thread and this forum section.