Land ISSUES - Lawyers advise

[ovilla]

Stupid question - Isn't this lease agreeent solely between the parties mentioned within the lease, just those names? There's no language on here that states that this lease transfers over to any new owners of said land - only the farmer has language stating that this agreement is extended over to his heirs or assigns. Since the previous owners no longer have rights to the use of this property, wouldn't it make the lease null and void? Keith, I just don't understand how this automatically carries over to you.

It would be like me leasing my car or backyard to my neighbor to use for a year but then a month later I turn around and sell both. Why would the new owners be obligated to honor MY agreement?

Finally, since there's no language addressing the breaking of the lease, what are the rules then? Keith, has your lawyer commented on how the State of Ohio rules on this?

 

[slicktoptt]

Hey NWOhioChevyGuy,

I'm bowing in late on this and I want to preface my comments by saying I am not a lawyer but I am a CPA who works in a real estate law office.

I had one of our attorneys look at the lease language and he laughed at it. He said technically the lease does transfer from owner to owner but you have a very strong case to break this lease. Since there is no termination clause you would have to refer to your state/county laws with respect to what actions would need to be taken and what, if any, damages would need to be paid to the farmer.

If I read and remember correctly, Fidelity was suggesting compensating you for the 2 acres. My attorney said, although he's not sure of Michigan laws, but in Florida money can not cure the issue because of the uniquess of land. He said you are the land owner, so the only way to correct the issue is to return the rights to your 2 acres to you. The only way to do that is to buy out the farmer or break the lease.

Do not accept any soulution that involves Fidelity compensating you. Fidelity should be contacting the Farmer and making him aware that they intend to break the lease and determine what his buy out number is. There is absolutely no reason they should ask you to try and get this information from the farmer and then tell you that you do not speak on their behalf.

We are in Jacksonville and do a lot of work with their corporate office. If you need further assistance. Shoot me an email and give me the names of Fidelity employees that have contacted you and their communications to you. I can't make any promisses but I can try to get the issue into the right hands.

No matter how you view the farmer...he is not your friend and probably will not be after this gets resolved.

Kevin

 

[ovilla]

Got to agree that it seems to me like the farmer has his interest in mind and of course is being nice to you. If he cared about your use of the 2 acres, then he would most likely just ask to be farily compensated for the amont that he paid for the lease. The fact that he's not open to any compensation tells me that he's greedy. Come on, it's not like the farmer is going to lose his whole farm because he can't plant these two extra acres. He obviously knows that he got a great deal so he's trying to hold on to it. The amount of this lease probably doesn't even cover the taxes that would be incurred on it for the 30 year period. In the end, you'd be paying taxes on land that he uses for free. Break the lease, possibly lose a "friend" here, and get your land back!

 

[musgofasta]

This is just an ugly situation, and I feel for you.

I would TELL him you are breaking the land lease, effective 30 days from today, and a fence will be constructed on day 31. He'll probably say "Ok, I expect $x.** of my money back." You have him write that down, and fax that over to the title company.

If he's paying $x.** in annual lease payments, wouldn't the current "Value" of the lease be the present value of all future lease payments? Like a savings bond or annuity. (Sorry, I'm a finance analyst and that's how it looks to me).

If it's a straight up $4,600 up front for 30 years of use, then the farmer should be owed a fair interest rate on his $4,600 for the time between lease inception and termination. He's made "whole" and you get your land.

 

[blkhonda1991]

wow..the farmer made out like a bandit on that lease...4600$ for 30 years? so hes basically paid 153$ a year to use 2 acres of yours while you probably pay more in taxes on those 2 acres

 

[ddawg16]

so hes basically paid 153$ a year to use 2 acres of yours while you probably pay more in taxes on those 2 acres

Who does pay the taxes on that land? If he is leasing it, is that inclusive of taxes? I agree with the above....the taxes alone would be higher than what the lease is worth.....

I think the info from Slick is some of the best advice so far.....

It looks like the farmer is greedy....which is maybe the crux of his agenda....if that is the case, there would not seem a whole lot you could do except break the lease....given the totality of the situation....I think your day in court would be to your advantage.....

So...take the property back....tell him, here is your lease money back prorated...."if you don't like it....sue me good neighbor....."

Might be worth while to do some checking.....see if there is any dirt on the guy....I'm sure the people in town know him....find out how well he is liked....make sure he does not have any 'important friends' that could make your life uncomfortable.....because if this does go to trial...the jury is going to be some of those town people......

 

[jay50]

Who does pay the taxes on that land? If he is leasing it, is that inclusive of taxes? I agree with the above....the taxes alone would be higher than what the lease is worth.....

I think the info from Slick is some of the best advice so far.....

It looks like the farmer is greedy....which is maybe the crux of his agenda....if that is the case, there would not seem a whole lot you could do except break the lease....given the totality of the situation....I think your day in court would be to your advantage.....

So...take the property back....tell him, here is your lease money back prorated...."if you don't like it....sue me good neighbor....."

Might be worth while to do some checking.....see if there is any dirt on the guy....I'm sure the people in town know him....find out how well he is liked....make sure he does not have any 'important friends' that could make your life uncomfortable.....

because if this does go to trial...the jury is going to be some of those town people......[/

QUOTE]

Yeah, and you being the mean over-bearing outsider; trying to deprive the poor farmer of his rightful land to farm, you could get screwed really good if they factor in the loss of what his harvest would have been on those 2 acres over 30 years.

The previous owner who gave the lease must have been in a money crunch; wonder why he did not lease more than 2 of the acres to the farmer? There is more to this lease than meets the eye. Wonder if this land was on some type of older lease that had expired years ago. Wonder how much other land the farmer leases from others?

There's more to this farmer than you know. Ask around the town and you will see what you are up against if you go to court. You don't want him to have a cousin that is a local judge or politician/town mayor, etc or the deck will be stacked against you before you get out of the gate.

 

[blkhonda1991]

Who does pay the taxes on that land? If he is leasing it, is that inclusive of taxes? I agree with the above....the taxes alone would be higher than what the lease is worth.....

based on the way apartment rental leases are, im assuming the owner of the land pays the taxes using the rent from the renter. but since he paid the lease upfront im guessing our guy is footing the taxes on that 2 acre parcel since it its owned by him...just my thoughts on it, dont jump on me if im wrong

 

[hblock72]

I'm just curious how this land is laid out. Is it possible that the farmer wants the two acres to "straigten" out his propery line to make plowing, planting, harvesting easier. I was just thinking, if Mr. Farmer is cruising along towing his 30ft wide plow and has to make a curve to get around the leased two acres(if they were not leased), he may leave another two acres of his own land in-accessable. Large machinery like that doesn't exactly turn on a dime, so maybe having that two acre lease allows him to work in a long straight line. Again, just a thought. It does seem odd to me that the farmer is so concerned over two acres of land if he has thousands. Hardly seems worth his trouble.

 

[blkhonda1991]

I'm just curious how this land is laid out. Is it possible that the farmer wants the two acres to "straigten" out his propery line to make plowing, planting, harvesting easier. I was just thinking, if Mr. Farmer is cruising along towing his 30ft wide plow and has to make a curve to get around the leased two acres(if they were not leased), he may leave another two acres of his own land in-accessable. Large machinery like that doesn't exactly turn on a dime, so maybe having that two acre lease allows him to work in a long straight line. Again, just a thought. It does seem odd to me that the farmer is so concerned over two acres of land if he has thousands. Hardly seems worth his trouble.

i agree...i have looked at the aerial photo of the area by using the addresses in the lease he posted...im not seeing any real restrictions on land access...maybe the threadstarter could draw a line around his property and show the relation of this to the leased portion and the farmers land

 

[Brad54]

Way earlier in the post, NWOhioGuy said he was responsible for paying the taxes on the land. Farmer does not have to give our guy a dime, for the next 26 or so years on a 30 year lease, while our guy must pay property taxes on it.
And the farmer has said he isn't interested in returning the land and getting compensated for it.
-Brad

 

[67 455 Bird ragtop]

WHat's he planting there?? Would be a shame if some infestation caused him problems on that two acres.....

 

[akdiesel]

What a headache.
I have only read a few comments on this issue but you seem to have your hands full.
I feel for you in this case.
Raise his rent. Everything else has gone up due to fuel prices anyway.
Feed him his own kind of tactics and make him bend.

 

[blkhonda1991]

What a headache.
I have only read a few comments on this issue but you seem to have your hands full.
I feel for you in this case.
Raise his rent. Everything else has gone up due to fuel prices anyway.
Feed him his own kind of tactics and make him bend.

Read a bit more...the lease was paid in full to the previous owner so the current owner recieves no compensation and pays the taxes on the land while the farmer reaps the benefits

 

[Ricola]

Couple things. Others have mentioned as well.

It will be interesting to see what the surveyor turns up. What if over time the farmer nicked off a little more land than he leased?

Second, Who is paying the property tax? How much is it per acre? I bet the other neighbors would like to see what kind of a guy they have living next door to them. Nice of you to pay this guys taxes for him.

And I sped read through the lease and don't see where he has a lease with you. How did the rights transfer? There should be an update to the lease on file when ownership transfered the first time.

Oh, I'm a new guy. Hi!

 

[jay50]

Just wondering if there is any connection between the farmer, the insurance company, and the seller of the property you bought it from.

How convient that it was with such an oversight that caused the property to be sold without catching this very minor blemish. I'm betting it would not sell if this crazy-*** lease was discovered when doing a title search for the perspective buyer.

Might be worth looking into. Wonder if there were any other potential buyers before you that backed out after discovering this? You might be a victim of some shady dealing with several parties involved with the sell and transaction. Could be the only way they could sell it....

 

[Junkman]

I see this as the person that gave him the lease wanted to screw with the mortgage company or someone else, and did it out of revenge. I believe that a court would look at the lease and determine that there was unfair compensation based on the term of the lease, and the dollar amount. You might have to go after the original lease granters and drag them into court also as witness's. Who knows what the original relationship was between the farmer, and the original lease granters. I also believe that the original mortgage company that held the mortgage at the time the lease was granted, probably wasn't aware of the lease. It might make sense to go back to the original mortgage documents and review them. Sometimes those documents prohibit long term leasing without permission of the mortgage company. I smell a rat or two, but I just don't know how many more rats are involved in this. Usually long term leases have lots of terms as to who pays taxes, insurance, etc. Also, who made up the lease? It sure doesn't look like it was done by an attorney. Who knows, the dollar amount might never even been paid to the original lease granters. I see this lease as a "revenge" issue, but not exactly sure as to whom or why.

 

[Coach James]

I'm not a lawyer so this is just my personal opinion. I would have to more personal contact with the farmer over this. Everything would be done through my attorney. You talked to the farmer once and he basically told you to take a hike. My instinct from dealing with people tells me that his attitude is "I'm wealthy and you're not so screw you. I'm going to do what I want and if it's unfair to you that's your problem." He seems to think that if you're getting a raw deal on your property, that's your problem not his. If he cared anything about being a good neighbor to you, he would have said something other than "I have a lease, I'm not giving it up and I won't settle."

I'd forget about staying on his good side and do what is best for you.

Coach

 

[ovilla]

My thought is why does he have to honor the lease at all? I'd wait until the land was harvested and then build a fence around the whole thing and start using the land for whatever I wanted to. Then the farmer would have to spend his money to get a lawyer to come after me. Also, got to agree that a friendship with the farmer is not worth losing out on your land for the next 21 years. I'd rather have this guy off the Christmas list and have the land back.


Keith - I'd be curious if the prior owner (not the bank but the people who owned it right before you bough it) knew of this lease. All of this info is in public records and I bet the prior owner might still live in the area. It would be worth the hassle of finding out who owned the place and then talking to them about the lease.

 

[hblock72]

Although the farmer isn't doing you any favors, I still think it's best to stay on his "good" side. If this were to get ugly, what's to stop him from deciding to install a hog lot on his land that borders yours and let you take in the nice aroma when the wind blows towards you.

 

[boiler7904]

Although the farmer isn't doing you any favors, I still think it's best to stay on his "good" side. If this were to get ugly, what's to stop him from deciding to install a hog lot on his land that borders yours and let you take in the nice aroma when the wind blows towards you.

Depending on the size of the hog lot and method used to contain the waste; the federal or state EPA, federal or state department of agriculture, and/or department of natural resources very well could have something to say about a hog lot. They've become very conscious of air and ground water quality issues around hog farms the last few years.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Started reading this thread this afternoon and just finished up...very interesting.

Nothing of this magnitude has happened to me...but a year ago last spring I made plans to build a garage on my property in the back yard. I'm on 3/4 of an acre just east of Atlanta. Had to have a property survey done...which I had not had done when I bought the property...it wasn't required and wasn't anything I thought about when I bought the house. I knew my property was 125 X 250...so I felt confident I knew where the property line was...esp. b/c there is a natural border of bushes and trees between our properties.

Well, the survey came back and ...SURPRISE! instead of the line coming straight back from the street...it came back at an angle...so instead of a rectangle...it was more like a parallelagram. This was significant...b/c I wanted to put the garage the minimum setback off the property line...and of course the angle cut through that side of my lot. It cut through so sharply, it actually hits the back right corner of the existing one car garage.

My neighbor...who's in her late 80s...told me she'd be fine with me putting my garage anywhere on my property I liked. However, I wasn't about to do that...b/c I knew once she passed on and the house changed hands...whoever bought it could make a stink about my garage violating the setback rules...or even being technically on their property depending where I put in in my yard. The closest I was planning on putting it to what I originally thought was my property line; it would've still looked like it was naturally on my property, but I didn't want to take any chances.

Anyways, we figured out where the line was, built the garage ten feet off the line (after much wrangling with the city to find the proper setback requirements...whole 'nother story) and everything worked out okay.

But I want to claim the land up to where I THOUGHT the property line was...since I've been mowing the yard and raking the leaves...tending to that slice of property as if it was mine for the seven years I've lived here. I believe there is a provision in GA law that I can eventually claim it as mine since I've been taking care of it...I know I'll need to consult a real estate attorney re: this...but I won't attempt to do anything about it until after she passes.

Anyway...my 2 cents on this thread is that the Farmer is a friggin *****...why in the world would a guy with thousands of acres give such a sh*t about two acres? Exhaust every avenue to legally get your land back...and if that doesn't work...break the friggin lease! I agree with trying to stay on good terms with him...to a point...but if you need to be a ***** to get your land back...be a *****! Because the farmer certainly sounds like one!

 

[Itzkwik]

You might have to go after the original lease granters and drag them into court also as witness's.

Junk brings up a good point. Have you talked with the previous owners that made the lease? Might be an interesting conversation.

 

[Junkman]

Started reading this thread this afternoon and just finished up...very interesting.

Nothing of this magnitude has happened to me...but a year ago last spring I made plans to build a garage on my property in the back yard. I'm on 3/4 of an acre just east of Atlanta. Had to have a property survey done...which I had not had done when I bought the property...it wasn't required and wasn't anything I thought about when I bought the house. I knew my property was 125 X 250...so I felt confident I knew where the property line was...esp. b/c there is a natural border of bushes and trees between our properties.

Well, the survey came back and ...SURPRISE! instead of the line coming straight back from the street...it came back at an angle...so instead of a rectangle...it was more like a parallelagram. This was significant...b/c I wanted to put the garage the minimum setback off the property line...and of course the angle cut through that side of my lot. It cut through so sharply, it actually hits the back right corner of the existing one car garage.

My neighbor...who's in her late 80s...told me she'd be fine with me putting my garage anywhere on my property I liked. However, I wasn't about to do that...b/c I knew once she passed on and the house changed hands...whoever bought it could make a stink about my garage violating the setback rules...or even being technically on their property depending where I put in in my yard. The closest I was planning on putting it to what I originally thought was my property line; it would've still looked like it was naturally on my property, but I didn't want to take any chances.

Anyways, we figured out where the line was, built the garage ten feet off the line (after much wrangling with the city to find the proper setback requirements...whole 'nother story) and everything worked out okay.

But I want to claim the land up to where I THOUGHT the property line was...since I've been mowing the yard and raking the leaves...tending to that slice of property as if it was mine for the seven years I've lived here. I believe there is a provision in GA law that I can eventually claim it as mine since I've been taking care of it...I know I'll need to consult a real estate attorney re: this...but I won't attempt to do anything about it until after she passes.

Anyway...my 2 cents on this thread is that the Farmer is a friggin *****...why in the world would a guy with thousands of acres give such a sh*t about two acres? Exhaust every avenue to legally get your land back...and if that doesn't work...break the friggin lease! I agree with trying to stay on good terms with him...to a point...but if you need to be a ***** to get your land back...be a *****! Because the farmer certainly sounds like one!

Just because you were cutting the grass doesn't make that land yours. You say that the farmer is being a "*****", and I would include you in that description if you were to try to take that land from the "old lady", or her estate. You, I, and the rest of the world know perfectly well that you would fight tooth and nail if the situation were reversed. Just because you didn't survey your land when you purchased it, doesn't give you the right to steal the land of another person. If you want the land badly enough, then make her an offer to buy the land and home, and let her live out the rest of her natural life there for free. Then subdivide the property and keep what you want and sell the rest.
Thirty years ago, I had to deal with some pricks that tried to steal 14 of my 15 acres, claiming that they owned it. It took over $25K (1980 dollars!) to pay a lawyer to defend my land rights in court. The reason that they claimed the land, is because they wanted to buy it, but the seller didn't want to sell to them. If they couldn't have it, then they wanted to "punish" me for buying it. Now that I won the lawsuit, I have put into the deed a restriction that they, their heirs, assigns, etc. can never own this land without first paying $500,000 to my heirs after my passing. Revenge is a desert best eaten cold. They have made me multiple offers to buy a portion of the land, but it isn't happening. They can rot in hell before they will get one inch of my land!! I say piss on every greedy person in this world!!!
Unfortunately, the courts don't allow for the loosing party to reimburse the winning party for their legal expense. If they would make that one change to our civil law code, then there would be a lot less greedy people filing frivolous lawsuits.

 

[Graham08]

Unfortunately, the courts don't allow for the loosing party to reimburse the winning party for their legal expense. If they would make that one change to our civil law code, then there would be a lot less greedy people filing frivolous lawsuits.

Agree 100%!

 

[hblock72]

Depending on the size of the hog lot and method used to contain the waste; the federal or state EPA, federal or state department of agriculture, and/or department of natural resources very well could have something to say about a hog lot. They've become very conscious of air and ground water quality issues around hog farms the last few years.

The hog lot was a metaphor not to be taken literally. If not a hog lot, then an ugly old barn could be built, he could decide to start parking his old machinery there, pile up bales of hay, etc. Point is, if this turns into a pee pee match, the farmer will likely win since the two acres in question isn't his back yard but is the original posters.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Just because you were cutting the grass doesn't make that land yours. You say that the farmer is being a "*****", and I would include you in that description if you were to try to take that land from the "old lady", or her estate. You, I, and the rest of the world know perfectly well that you would fight tooth and nail if the situation were reversed. Just because you didn't survey your land when you purchased it, doesn't give you the right to steal the land of another person. If you want the land badly enough, then make her an offer to buy the land and home, and let her live out the rest of her natural life there for free. Then subdivide the property and keep what you want and sell the rest.

The land I'm referring to is a slice the length of my property (250') which comes to a point at the street, and gradually widens until it's about 20' wide at the back of my lot. Literally, a slice. Anyone that sees my property and hers would think the property line is the natural line...trees and bushes...but it's not. In fact, part of my driveway is literally on her property...enough space to park a car on. That's the land I would like to have...what I thought I was buying in the first place. Yes, I didn't have a survey done...this is the first house I bought and I wasn't as well versed in buying land as someone else might be.

I'm not trying to "take" or "steal" anything...but feel free to jump to any conculsions you like...since you already have. FYI, I did speak to the woman about the possiblity of buying this property last summer, but she didn't want to deal with it. I understood that...seeing as she's in her late 80s and didn't want the hassle. I have no desire for her land and home...just the aforementioned slice that I've been tending to for the seven years I've been here. I am quite certain this won't affect the value of her land in the very least. As I said, there is a provision in GA law that if you tend to a piece of land for a long enough time, you can eventually claim it as yours. But I won't think of taking any possible action until she has passed away because we have a good relationship and I wouldn't want to cause her any possible stress.

This is hardly the same situation as the OP and the Farmer, but if you want to equate it to that, fine. It's a free country!

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

67 You need to see a lawyer BEFORE she dies or sells it. States do differ, but if you haven't filed before, the clock could start ALL over, once the new owners move in. (here it is something like 3 years before the property is considered abandoned, but it must also be free from easements and such. (our property in my area goes something like 7 degre offset from front to back, then an easement in back, behind a wall (neighbor treats it as hers and keeps flowering preniuls, front 13 feet, is officially city property although we must upkeep).

 

[JB740i]

As I said, there is a provision in GA law that if you tend to a piece of land for a long enough time, you can eventually claim it as yours. But I won't think of taking any possible action until she has passed away because we have a good relationship and I wouldn't want to cause her any possible stress.

This is hardly the same situation as the OP and the Farmer, but if you want to equate it to that, fine. It's a free country!

Cool, so if I go mow a section of I-75 in GA for a couple years I can plop a house down on it?

What about the right away in front of my house? I can mow that for decades and one day they can tear it all up to widen the road. Can you believe they can do that to "my land" that I've been tending to?

 

[Junkman]

The land I'm referring to is a slice the length of my property (250') which comes to a point at the street, and gradually widens until it's about 20' wide at the back of my lot. Literally, a slice. Anyone that sees my property and hers would think the property line is the natural line...trees and bushes...but it's not. In fact, part of my driveway is literally on her property...enough space to park a car on. That's the land I would like to have...what I thought I was buying in the first place. Yes, I didn't have a survey done...this is the first house I bought and I wasn't as well versed in buying land as someone else might be.

I'm not trying to "take" or "steal" anything...but feel free to jump to any conculsions you like...since you already have. FYI, I did speak to the woman about the possiblity of buying this property last summer, but she didn't want to deal with it. I understood that...seeing as she's in her late 80s and didn't want the hassle. I have no desire for her land and home...just the aforementioned slice that I've been tending to for the seven years I've been here. I am quite certain this won't affect the value of her land in the very least. As I said, there is a provision in GA law that if you tend to a piece of land for a long enough time, you can eventually claim it as yours. But I won't think of taking any possible action until she has passed away because we have a good relationship and I wouldn't want to cause her any possible stress.

This is hardly the same situation as the OP and the Farmer, but if you want to equate it to that, fine. It's a free country!

No matter how you try to justify it, you are still wanting to take the land without paying for it. Your intentions are clear. You think that just because there is a natural looking barrier that the land should belong to you, not her or her estate. How would you feel if this natural barrier were just the opposite, and it was you that was going to loose this "slice" of land? If you want this slice of land, then have a surveyor prepare a description of the land that you desire, along with a plot plan of both parcels, and go to her with an offer to purchase. If you show up with the proper documentation and a reasonable offer of cash, then I am certain that she will listen. I don't know of any elderly person that won't consider a cash payment, especially if they can visualize actually what they are selling. Trying to take the land by adverse possession is going to cost you as much, or more, especially if the heirs decide to fight you in court. Taking something that doesn't belong to you by any means is morally and ethically wrong. Since you have said that this is your first home purchase, and that "I wasn't as well versed in buying land", I will assume that you are of the younger "me" generation that believes that whatever they want, they should get. Considering that in all probability, I am double your age, I am of the generation that learned that if you want something, you earn it or buy it, rather than find some other method to acquire it.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

No matter how you try to justify it, you are still wanting to take the land without paying for it. Your intentions are clear. You think that just because there is a natural looking barrier that the land should belong to you, not her or her estate. How would you feel if this natural barrier were just the opposite, and it was you that was going to loose this "slice" of land? If you want this slice of land, then have a surveyor prepare a description of the land that you desire, along with a plot plan of both parcels, and go to her with an offer to purchase. If you show up with the proper documentation and a reasonable offer of cash, then I am certain that she will listen. I don't know of any elderly person that won't consider a cash payment, especially if they can visualize actually what they are selling. Trying to take the land by adverse possession is going to cost you as much, or more, especially if the heirs decide to fight you in court. Taking something that doesn't belong to you by any means is morally and ethically wrong. Since you have said that this is your first home purchase, and that "I wasn't as well versed in buying land", I will assume that you are of the younger "me" generation that believes that whatever they want, they should get. Considering that in all probability, I am double your age, I am of the generation that learned that if you want something, you earn it or buy it, rather than find some other method to acquire it.

No, if you had read my post, you would have learned that I did offer to buy the land from her, but she didn't want to deal with it. I wouldn't spend the money to have the portion surveyed, a contract drawn up, etc, without at least a verbal arrangement between me and her in place. Assuming someone is going to sell you something just b/c they're old and you're willing to make a cash offer, that's just foolish and you should know better than that.

Thanks for the lesson on morals...as well as your determining that I'm of the "me" generation. You don't know a damn thing about me...but since you're making all the assumptions, let me make one. I assume you're a crotchety old fart!

Now that we got that out of the way the only reason I was even "thinking" (not necessarily doing) of going the route of "adverse possession" is if they won't agree to sell me the land at a reasonable price. And even then, it wouldn't be until after my neighbor has passed.

I've been looking at this situation using a "reasonableness standard"...and reasonably, when I bought the land, I expected all of my driveway to be on my property. Let's skip your lecture on me not having a survey done...yes, that was a mistake...and I don't blame my neighbor at all for the way the property lines are drawn.

Am I entitled to the land? Yes and no...arguments can be made on both sides. As I said, I have mowed the grass, and raked the leaves, and kept up the grounds in question...she has not.

Let me pose the question to you...you buy property that you think is yours...then find out it isn't all yours...and part of your driveway, backyard, is on the neighbor's property, and they're not interesting in selling.

So what do you do?

 

[Junkman]

.

.............. I assume you're a crotchety old fart!

Cantankerous, might be more fitting, but I will accept your "crotchety old fart" as a compliment. I have earned the description by doing what is morally correct in a modern world of people that have lost most of their moral standing in the world as we knew it in days gone by.

Now that we got that out of the way the only reason I was even "thinking" (not necessarily doing) of going the route of "adverse possession" is if they won't agree to sell me the land at a reasonable price. And even then, it wouldn't be until after my neighbor has passed.

For it to be adverse, she has to have known about it, and have attempted to stop you by some means that are recorded. The way that I see it, she is allowing you the privilege of cutting the grass and raking the leaves, since she has not served you with notice to quit. There goes your adverse claim out the window. Once she dies, it will be even harder for you to claim adverse possession. Besides, the clock doesn't start ticking until you had your first discussion with her. Just remember, that Judges don't take to kindly to people trying to take another's property, so they will be making you jump through every legal hoop that they can.

I've been looking at this situation using a "reasonableness standard"...and reasonably, when I bought the land, I expected all of my driveway to be on my property. Let's skip your lecture on me not having a survey done...yes, that was a mistake...and I don't blame my neighbor at all for the way the property lines are drawn.

Glad to see that you recognize the errors of your ways...

Am I entitled to the land? Yes and no...arguments can be made on both sides. As I said, I have mowed the grass, and raked the leaves, and kept up the grounds in question...she has not.

Let me pose the question to you...you buy property that you think is yours...then find out it isn't all yours...and part of your driveway, backyard, is on the neighbor's property, and they're not interesting in selling.

So what do you do?

I have already been in this position, as I previously stated, except that it was someone else trying to take my land from me. The honorable way is to buy it. Anything less is wrong. When people are not willing to sell what they have, that means that you just haven't offered enough money for the property. I had a piece of property in a upper class town that barely had enough street frontage to put a driveway into the rear portion of 2 1/2 acres. The lot in front of mine was too small to be built on, and I offered to buy it from the land owner. He refused, and I just kept making offers until it was fruitless to go any higher. I then offered my land to him, and we struck a deal. I walked away with a good profit, and he then subdivided the total package into two lots, and he also made a good profit. You see, these two old farts were playing a poker game to see who was going to fold first. In the end, we both won, and we both got what we wanted. We both had a need, but we both didn't present the other with an adversarial position. In life, you will learn that you can get what you want by being reasonable and being unreasonable will get you nowhere.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

When people are not willing to sell what they have, that means that you just haven't offered enough money for the property.

That's one way of looking at it...but that doesn't necessarily mean the potential seller is a reasonable person. What about the Farmer in the original posting refusing a fair offer from the OP? I think most people, from the info presented, would agree that the Farmer is being very obstinate in resolving the situation with the OP. The OP is trying to reclaim 1/3 of his land...and the Farmer is trying to hold onto a lease for 2 acres when he has thousands of acres of his own...and he knows the OP got screwed over by this lease that he didn't know about when he purchased the land. But the Farmer still won't accept a fair settlement.

You see, these two old farts were playing a poker game to see who was going to fold first. In the end, we both won, and we both got what we wanted. We both had a need, but we both didn't present the other with an adversarial position. In life, you will learn that you can get what you want by being reasonable and being unreasonable will get you nowhere.

Yes, that all sound fine and dandy...but you're making some big assumptions. You're assuming the other party is going to be reasonable, and is going to want to make a fair deal. And in life, those are BIG assumptions.

There is nothing forcing my neighbors to do anything about this situation. And to be honest, I'm not all that worried about it at the moment. In fact, I hadn't given it that much thought since last summer, until I came upon this thread. If I was planning on selling the house in the next couple years, I would be more concerned about it, b/c the value of my property could very realistically be diminished if the prospective buyers of my house found out about this situation. And I just bet, Junkman, that if I sold my house without volunatarily disclosing where the property lines are currently at, you would be the first one to call me unethical and say that wasn't right.

So yes, I would like to buy the property at a reasonable price, but I won't be held up for ransom. And if that doesn't work, and there is a way to legally make a claim to that land at a minimum of expense, I won't have a moral qualm with that. If you do, again...free country.

 

[scfoxman]

Thread Hi-jack has been subdued.

Your originally hosted topic will return momentarily.

 

[gunguy]

67 - You have a more important issue to deal with in my opinion. Reading your earlier post you mention that part of your driveway is on your neighbor's property. I believe that's called encroachment.

I would clear that up as soon as possible. Don't assume that the next buyer of either property (your's or your neighbor's) won't do a survey.

Deal with it now before you are forced to.

Just a suggestion of course.

Jim

 

[ovilla]

67 - With the housing market being what it is today, do keep in mind that lenders are being much more careful with loans and are insisting on more documentation for everything. I talked to my cousin and he said that here in the Chicagoland area, there's no way you could close on any property without a plot of survey. He's also seen deals go sour because the "believed" natural property lines did not match up with the plot of survey. I would definitely get your situation corrected before the old gal moves on (to a better place) and her heirs force you to take out half your driveway. Anyone who's already purchased a home before will ask for a plot of survey and they'll hire a home inspector (which is very common up here) to show them exactly where the property line is. Up here it's very common for the town to ask for it, especially if you want to get a permit to put in a fence or build on your property.

Keith - What's happening with your situtation? Any feedback from the title company, your lawyer, or the farmer? Are you thinking of pursuing breaking the lease? I do also want to compliment you on your composure through all of this. I'd be too livid to blog about it and I'm sure this would be an extremely sore subject with the wife too.

 

[Junkman]

I am wondering if 67's land was subdivided from the land of the neighbor, and that is how the "natural property line" differs from the deeded property lines. Also, when these type of situations arise it is best to have the survey checked a second time. The original survey could have a mistake that was caused by using a starting point that was incorrect. In a town near me, there was 100' of frontage that was missing according to the deeds. They had to start off from the State Line benchmark, and plot out each of the parcels until they found the original error. In this case, all the deeded lines had to be re-written to correct the errors and all the property owners had to sign onto the agreements. Luckily, there were no permanent structures located on the "disputed" lands. In this case, there were a lot of people that were cutting the neighbors grass thinking that it was theirs.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Thread Hi-jack has been subdued.

Your originally hosted topic will return momentarily.

ha ha! thanks for the comic relief! This is your halftime diversion until we find out more about the OP and the Farmer...

67 - You have a more important issue to deal with in my opinion. Reading your earlier post you mention that part of your driveway is on your neighbor's property. I believe that's called encroachment.

I would clear that up as soon as possible. Don't assume that the next buyer of either property (your's or your neighbor's) won't do a survey.

Deal with it now before you are forced to.

Just a suggestion of course.

Jim

Thanks for the input. How do I do clear this up? They gave me the strong impression that they didn't want to deal at all with the issue of that land until at least after she is gone...if ever. I wanted to talk to the woman's daughter...who is in her 50s...but she never contacted me. As I mentioned...they have no motivation...other than money...to do anything about it. And they do have plenty of money...btw.

Just for perspective, my neighbor is on 1.75 acres...and the area in question is about 5% of one acre.

 

[Junkman]

You clean up the problem by researching how this came about originally. The "natural property" line was planted by someone that believed that is where it belonged. As I previously said, your land might have been originally part of the neighbors original parcel, and was subdivided off. Also, the question of how long ago the home was built will give you an idea of when and why. It the home was possibly another family member of the elderly woman, such as her daughters, then that will be a clue. One of my employees built a home on some adjoining land that her mother gave her. After the new home was built, they put in a driveway and garage, but didn't realize that it was partially on the mothers property, until the home was surveyed to be sold. Since the daughter had gotten divorced, and the ex was going to get half of the value, the mother said "tough luck" and kept the garage for her self. It got even more difficult, when the survey determined that there was a flaw in the original deed description that gave the mother a 2' strip of land in front of the home also. This killed the sale, and the home stayed vacant until the mortgage bank foreclosed on the property. They paid the mother to buy this strip of land, and the garage. All this was because the original survey and deed had defects. Your property line might also be the same type of situation. It was done in error, and the only way to correct it now is to redraw the lines and execute quit claim deeds and put some $$$$ into their hands. Based on your last post, if you are still thinking of going the adverse possession route, I'll bet that you are going to have a very difficult time. People with money can become very stubborn when you try to take something of perceived value from them. My neighbors thought that they could outspend me and win, but they were proved wrong.

 

[gunguy]

I don't think the thread has been hijacked at all. Both problems are about land issues and the need for due dilligence before going to settlement, or in these cases how to resolve a problem after the fact.

Ohio Guy - If it hasn't been said before, I would cut off all direct communication with all parties involved and speak only through your lawyer. They are all in the CYA mode to minimize their losses. You do not want to say anything that will strengthen their position and weaken yours.

We are all interested in the outcome and hope it meets your expectations.

67- Listen to Junk and do the research. Sooner or later you are going to have to deal with the property line/driveway issue. You don't want to wait until you want to sell your property or the neighbor sells hers and the new owner puts a fence up and denies access to the driveway.

If you can't come to a resolution with your neighbor, you may have to relocate your driveway. At the very least have a plan.

In the long run it's only going to cost you more if you wait.

Jim