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a tale of two wrenches

warmpancakes

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Its not so much if you buy a "insert american made tool name here ) wrench you keep a worker at that company employed, Its the bigger picture for that one wrench to be made theres probably 50 people affected, I live in south east Michigan and have seen first hand how moving jobs overseas directly impacts communities, Take a drive through Flint Michigan theres not much left after GM moved out. I currently work in Wixom michigan there was a ford plant here that produced the town car and grand marquis, when they shut the plant 3000 workers stopped coming into the area every day, stopped going to lunch, stopped buying gas , etc etc etc so those 3000 people probably impacted 9000 people in the area those 9000 stopped spending money etc etc etc, ITS THE BIG PICTURE PEOPLE NEED TO LOOK AT
 
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carterbeauford

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A company making profit doesn't mean its workers keeping their job.

I used to haul John Deere equipment out of their plant in Welland, ON. John Deere has been profitable for a long time. $2.88B profit last year. one day they decided to ship their entire Welland operation to Mexico. I hauled all their tool and die equipment piece by piece to the border. if you bought a new front end loader or brush hog, it's what we affectionately call a Juan Deere. Corporate America does not care. It was sad talking to regular employees I saw every week who had worked there for 20 years lose their jobs.

http://www.wellandtribune.ca/2011/03/30/john-deere-to-demolish-buildings
 
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raddksn

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Well I am sorry you took offense but I worked almost every crappy job there is, especially starting out. One reason manufacturing jobs have vacated this country is because nobody wants to sit in front of a punch press etc. all day and have their mind go numb. Those days are gone. At least a breakfast cook slinging hash for a living can develop a talent to make the best damn breakfast in town, or a cabby can meet interesting people and develop a skill of learning the best way around town. A punch press operator etc. mind just goes numb. I know , I did them all.
glad you dont need that mindnumbimg job. but its not about the just punch press opperator, what about the tradesmen that build that factory, or the company that makes the press, or the truck driver that brings the raw material or dilevers the finnished product, what about the guy who repairs that truck. or the guy that sells that finnished product or the tradesmen that builds the store he sells it from. i know alot of guys are already mindnumb and love supporting there family running a punch press. its the big picture and we are all in it tougether
 

raddksn

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:bowdown:
Its not so much if you buy a "insert american made tool name here ) wrench you keep a worker at that company employed, Its the bigger picture for that one wrench to be made theres probably 50 people affected, I live in south east Michigan and have seen first hand how moving jobs overseas directly impacts communities, Take a drive through Flint Michigan theres not much left after GM moved out. I currently work in Wixom michigan there was a ford plant here that produced the town car and grand marquis, when they shut the plant 3000 workers stopped coming into the area every day, stopped going to lunch, stopped buying gas , etc etc etc so those 3000 people probably impacted 9000 people in the area those 9000 stopped spending money etc etc etc, ITS THE BIG PICTURE PEOPLE NEED TO LOOK AT
You type faster than me!!!
 

sberry

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Yes, I agree more affected than the line worker, at 107 per wrench there is some to go around for everyone considering it cost about 2 to make, everyone makes out except for the guy making payments. I got no issue with anyone buying one,, or 2 even but the argument how it benifits me to do so is delusional.
 

Mickey O

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Logic tells us that if a good friend owns a business in your town you patronize their business rather than the one in the next town over that has the same or "similar" items for a bit less even though the business is a front to launder for a drug dealing operation that supplies drugs to the local high school.

Why? Your friends business in the same town is paying taxes, the store owner contribute in many ways to the community and if he goes out of business and stops paying taxes your taxes go up. He's your friend, it's nice to support your friends and small businesses, especially hometown ones. The store in the other town is offsetting their costs because the place is primarily a place to wash money and you don't want to support a place that's up to no good. The products sold at your friends hometown store are quality products, at the out of town store the guy is selling seconds. Because it's the right thing to do.

Did you root for the Chinese in the Olympics? Why? Why not?
 

buffalobill

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Well I am sorry you took offense but I worked almost every crappy job there is, especially starting out. One reason manufacturing jobs have vacated this country is because nobody wants to sit in front of a punch press etc. all day and have their mind go numb. Those days are gone. At least a breakfast cook slinging hash for a living can develop a talent to make the best damn breakfast in town, or a cabby can meet interesting people and develop a skill of learning the best way around town. A punch press operator etc. mind just goes numb. I know , I did them all.


every job is "mind numbing" after you get it down. just because some cook thinks his hash is good doesn't mean its any more rewarding than operating machinery in a factory. and if the factory pays well, like they used to, only a SUCKER wouldn't take the job at the factory.

I drive a truck locally, delivering food to businesses. its mindnumbing, hard, monotonous work, and you know what? its paying the bills very well, better than what most have. why would i go to a lesser job because, in your subjective opinion, it might be more interesting?

responsability trumps personal preference. no line cook or cabbie makes more than me around buffalo, guarauntee it. I talk to the line cooks while im delivering, and most of them end up working 2 jobs just to make ends meet every month.


I would be proud of my kids if they worked at the Snap On factory, just like i am proud that my father, uncle, and grandfather all retired out of GM factories.
 

wornoutoldman

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First off I'm not in anyway bashing Gearwrench here. If some fell into my lap I'd gladly use and likely enjoy having them. That said, I'd add that the jury is out on GW and will be for quite some time. SO tools that have stood the test of time. In my personal experience 20 plus years of brutal day in day out flat rate punishment. I and many others can attest to the SO value proposition. I can sell those SO tools for multiples of what I paid for them. Can GW say the same? Maybe in 10 or 20 years we will know.
 

BrokewrenchLS1

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Why am I not surprised that a thread asking about scientific results on two wrenches (and evidence being posted that Snap-on failed earlier than other wrenches in standardized tests carried out by an independent lab) turns into a COO/"Buy American!" thread?

I guess when objective evidence obliterates the "Well, Snap-on costs more so it must be better!" argument, the only things left are subjective opinions about why Snap-on is the best. And arguments about why factory jobs are better than other jobs.

:lol_hitti
 

sberry

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What amazes me is the argument that its good for me. You got to make it that way because you couldn't make it on its own merits. Got to make it emotional, kind of like the reasoning that its good for the poor and blue collar to vote for a bunch of right wing bigots. Most of this thinking is the real reason this country has problems is the thinking, the thinking that if you wrap it up in something it isn't it makes it logical. If a guy wants to buy it great but to imply that the rest of the world is foolish for not spending 107 on a wrench that can be bought anywhere in the world of comparable and reasonable quality for 5$ and I am being generous at that is full of ****.

What makes it even more ridiculous is on one hand encouraging the purchase of new while flag waving and buying at fire sales and hoarding on the other, the numbers are so far out there that the point is a joke.

Never in the history of the world has tool cost been so cheap for so much, not only that a guy can buy the whole set at Walmart for 30$, blindfolded couldn't tell them apart and actually have been well tested for long times in real world conditions. Really,,, a 12 pt 2/4 wrench a man cant bend by hand, is it worth 30 times the cost, even 20, 10, or is it twice as good?

Having tools is an issue, the quality for the most part, especially for common hand tools is not. Heck, sad to say even the welders are catching up. They were hold outs, now the price gap has increased, technology, cost, used to be it cost 60% to get a copy, now 40 and going lower.

It hasn't hit the low of hand tools though, doesn't mean every piece is that good but on cost and service its hard to beat a Craftsman socket at a buck a pop for set prices. Its almost disposable.
 
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carterbeauford

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Why am I not surprised that a thread asking about scientific results on two wrenches (and evidence being posted that Snap-on failed earlier than other wrenches in standardized tests carried out by an independent lab) turns into a COO/"Buy American!" thread?

that exactly what I didn't want it to turn into since it's all we ******* talk about here, if I can't beat em, join em.

I wanted to know how, with your eyes closed, you could tell you were using one or the other without looking at the brand name on the side.
 

kngelv

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I always become confused when I read about how we should buy American tools etc to keep manufacturing jobs. I would never want to work in a factory doing the same mind numbing job for 8 hrs a day, don't want my children to have to work there either. To me that would be a pitiful existence. And 90% of my tools I buy are American made but not for reasons so my children can work at those kind of mundane jobs.

There are plenty of jobs requiring a college degree that are as repetitive and mundane as some factory jobs. College is not for everyone. This country could use a lot more skill in the trade occupations, and most of these jobs pay better, and are more rewarding than plenty of jobs requiring a college degree. I work as an Industrial Electrician in an engine plant for one of the American car companies. The production workers here are generally top notch. The jobsetters/team leaders that run the machines have outstanding skill sets while many of their college educated supervisors are not worth a pint of p***. I have nothing against college. I received my Bachelor's Degree in May and am currently in Graduate school in Detroit - Wayne State University. I plan on doing a little teaching at the college level when I retire from here. To meet the demanding quality standards of todays manufacturing requires intelligence, dedication, and knowledge, and most of the jobs no longer involve simply pushing a button.

James
 

buffalobill

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since everyone gets sick of the "flagwaving/keep manufacturing here" arguements, I'll put up 50 bucks to send wrenches to a lab to have them tested. no ****......any takers?

I think the snap on/matco/mac tools wil win, and you know what? i don't even own any of those brands in regular wrenches. I have sk and proto. so just for shits and giggles, i volunteer to donate 2 of those brand wrenches, in a size that we can pick. i'm waiting for other takers.
 

Steinmetz

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that exactly what I didn't want it to turn into since it's all we ******* talk about here, if I can't beat em, join em.

I wanted to know how, with your eyes closed, you could tell you were using one or the other without looking at the brand name on the side.

Unfortunately, the discussion didn't stop with the COO debate. It devolved still further into a discussion of the relative worth of one's occupation and station in life.

You started an interesting thread, though.
 

dandan111

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The more we talk about waving old glory the better. Maybe more people will start to follow and join in. Not sure how the goat got involved. You guys are sick Os!
 
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Gabastone

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Oct 19, 2011
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I think a lot of it depends on the financial situation of the person buying. If I am making $8 an hour working part-time and needing a wrench to keep my car running, then I doubt Snap On is worth the premium price. On the other hand, if I am pulling in 60K working on cars for a living, Snap On is worth the price. Personally, fabricating is a hobby for me and decent tools makes it more enjoyable for me.

As for the article, some of the wrench did better because of a poor design. The open end was HUGE on a couple of those wrenches. While worthless at actual use, they do great in these types of tests - think USA and China RP wrenches. In addition, Snap On exceeded the limits of the test so the testers just tied them all for 1st.
 

toolmutt

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In addition, Snap On exceeded the limits of the test so the testers just tied them all for 1st.

Not in the open end max force test ("Nm max. Maul") If I'm reading the chart correctly, the two Snap Ons finish 11th and 15th. :dunno:
 

andywander

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I know we can get the gist of the above article, but man it'd be cool to see that translated!

I know just enough German that reading through it was painful, so i took the time to type it up and translate it using Google Translate. This still left a bit of a mess, but I went through it and I think I have a pretty good translation. Still a few rough spots:

Of Bending and Breaking

If it costs nothing, it is no good! When it comes to wrenches, however, the saying is wrong. 1 Euro gets you the same quality as the most expensive 32 Euro competitor. Is stinginess in the toolbox really [*****]?

Emine Pistor can break any wrench. But, the petite woman with mischievous eyes is not clumsy. Quite to the contrary: the Materials Tester of the materials research community Werkzeugund e V, in Remscheid, is doing exactly what we were looking for. She takes 18 wrenches in turn and wrings their necks. A calibrated Torque Tester helps her. In the middle is a high-strength steel hexagon, which the wrenches are placed on. A powerful electric motor and gearbox then slowly rotates a crank, the end of which acts on the shank of the wrenches. The hexagon, meanwhile, measures the applied torque, which carries the wrench about-until it finally gives up.

The wrenches were previously purchased in Mainz on a tour of various Baumarkte and tool-tray acts. There were also two wrenches from cheap providers on the market MOTO TECHNICA in Augsburg and four copies of specialty toolsellers. All were 13mm Combination wrenches, ranging in price from one to 31.95 Euros. We chose 13mm because that is probably the most popular size for work on automobiles. Combination wrenches, because we wanted to test both Open-end and Box-end forms, and it is not fun to watch good tools being purposely broken. It's cheaper and it makes looking at the toolbox less painful ...

This brings us back to Emine Pistor. The test is literally bending or breaking: Each Wrench stays on the Torque Tester until it breaks, bends or slips. So let's start with the weaker side, the Open End. DIN 3113 requires that a 13mm Open-End wrench be capable of at least 51 Newton-Meters of torque, without complaint. This is important, because if a Wrench slips or breaks, it's usually so abrupt that it's difficult to avoid injuries to the fingers. Oil or lubricant on the screwhead will tend to make slipping easier, but in the interest of uniform conditions, we used no lubricant on the test-hex. After 18 test of Open-End wrenches there is good news: Not one Open-End wrench is broken, though they all met the requirements of the DIN standard.

The worst value of the test(94Nm) was scored by the Metrinch wrench scored, with the patented wave profile that allows the same wrench to be used on both Metric and English fasteners. Metrinch tools are considered to be particularly useful when it comes to deformed hex heads, which normally allow the wrench to slip hopelessly. The weakness of the mouth was revealed here, however, as it bent up very clearly.

T he other end of the spectrum is dominated by the dull gray of Hazet. The German top dog withstood a whopping 184 Nm on the hexagon and fulfills the DIN, more than three times! It would be too simplistic, however, to make a final decision based on the sheer torque values, for the Hazet is also the Wrench with the thickest mouth in the test(6.35mm). This can be quite cumbersome in use, for example, to turn a small lock nut or place the wrench at most hidden points. In our table, we therefore assign rankings in different categories, so you can decide what is important to you. First in "Maximales Drehmoment Maul(Maximum Torque for Open-End)" is the Hazet. But in the "Maulbreite(Open-end thickness)", the Hazet is last. The Bahco (formerly Belz) wrench, is thinnest at 4.93 millimeters, while the torque measurement put it in 15th place. If Strength rules over everything, it must be the Hazet; if you need to get into tight engine spaces, you will be better serverd with the weaker Bahco. The summary is used as a mean of all the virtues and weaknesses of individual wrenches: Price, Open-End thickness, Box-End thickness and the values of maximum torque on Open-End and Box-end were added together to determine the best all-rounder, this is clearly the Wrench by Walther . With a 5.1mm Open-End thickness(third place), a 160 Nm maximum torque(eighth place) on the Open-End, it has a very good average. Aso, on the Box-End, the wrench withstood the maximum torque the machine was capable of applying.

The ring was not as easy to test. The specification of DIN 3113 is fulfilled at 107 Nm, but for us it was the Test Apparatus that was the limiting factor: The cost of the test hexagon is approximately 700 Euro, and it is only rated up to 250 Nm-above that there is a danger that it would be deformed, making it useless for testing. So we decided to to apply no more than 240 Nm. Just for comparison: That's more than twice the tightening torque for cylinder head bolts! A 12.9 Grade M8 screw is rated for just 43 Nm. Nevertheless, 10 of the 18 wrenches tested held up under this gigantic load of 240 Nm, without deforming. This corresponds to a load of about 24 Kg, at a distance of one meter from the center of the fastener. With bare hands this amount of torque is never transferred to the short 13mm wrench. For this reason don't get too hung up on the numbers. We wanted a direct comparison to separate the wheat from the chaff, but even the worst value of 182 Nm, achieved by the Ajay Industries India wrench is entirely sufficient in practice.

The price comparison is remarkable in every respect. The HR International (India), bought for one Euro at the Augsburg parts market, is undisputed number one. On the other end of the scale, the US-American manufacturer Snap-on, charges a whopping 31.95 Euros for a highly polished chrome Combination wrench with the proprietary FLANK DRIVE SYSTEM. Without FLANK DRIVE a similar wrench costs 29 Euros. We tested both. The good news for Snap-on: FLANK DRIVE pays off, because the rippled surface of the Open-End gave the Wrench more grip on the hex. However, it on;ly achieved the exact same 143 Nm as the Indian One-Euro Wrench! Without FLANK DRIVE the Open-End achieved 135 Nm. Adding that Snap-on with the slogan "Nothing even comes close" the nose is quite high wearing. However, it is also understandable that there are so many fans of the marque. The chrome plating is exalted above all others, the wrenches are flatter between the fingers and each is so small by. For some workshops-or showrooms with hydraulic ramps-it simply has to be Snap-on. And if a wrench should ever actually break, thanks to a lifetime guarantee, it will be replaced by the Snap-on Dealer immediately and without cost ...

Which brings us straight to the subjective preferences. Says Matthias Heyer, motor vehicle mechanic and engine specialist in the B + F Touring Garage in Troisdorf-Spich: "I personally think that the Snap-on Wrench is too smooth, but other colleagues swear by it. Leaning over into an engine compartment and with oily fingers I can't manipulate it well. For me, a Wrench must be especially small and handy. Fact is, however, that almost every manufacturer has its specialties. The small creak of Snap-on, for example, don't break-are simply the best of what there is! With tongs, however, nothing is better than Belzer. Almost every manufacturer triumphs in certain tools! "

Whether a wrench is rough and grippy like a Hazet or as smooth as a Snap-on must be, therefore, is simply a matter of taste. Clearly noticeable, however, the quality of the surface treatment of the more expensive brand-name products is better than the cheap wrenches. At the top here is Snap-on, followed by Bahco, Facom, Stahlwille, Metrinch, Walther, Matador, Proxxon, Wiesemann and Stanley provided you have a certain preference for the smooth and solid surface finish. Should you prefer rough and grippy, Hazet and Gedore are quite ahead the score with a carefully pearled surface. Even with oil-smeared fingers this Wrench will not slip out of your hand, however, they are not so easy to keep clean. But even among the cheap tools by Ajay Industries (2.50 Euros) and HR International's (one Euro), there are still considerable differences. While the chrome plating of Ajay was lost under bending load, the cheaper HR remained completely straight, and its chrome proved stable.

Brand-name Tool Manufacturers constantly make the argument that cheap tools are not true to size and suffer significant variations in Quality. The latter is ruled out by a tool brand with ISO certification of the production process, because this clearly defines that every single Wrench is manufactured to the exact same standard-type. Our research showed, however, that the two cheap Indian products come from ISO-Certified factories and also include the GS seal "Geprufte security" of the TUV Rheinland.

In terms of dimensions, DIN 3113, requires both Open-and Box-Ends measure between 13.04 and 13.24 millimeters in size. In fact, there were three borderline Box-End measurements of 13:25 per millimeter with Ajay, HR and Mullner. However, since the most elaborate test aapparatus, despite Projection technology, has a margin of error of 0.04mm, we go in favor of the "accused" and assume that these are within tolerance.

Is it worth it to spend a lot of money for brand tool? The simple answer is:.. no. Because Wrenches are not worn out, but usually laid forgotten, stolen or simply left. This is, of course, far less painful if the respective Wrench has cost just a few cents. The 32 euro Snap-on would make you cry...If you own a toolbox full of glossy valuables, watch it like a hawk, wrap the toolbox with barbed wire and never even use a single Wrench, this helps, but it makes the screws rather lonely. And my buddy Jochen should be happy with the cheap Indian ...
 
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andywander

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OOPS!:yikes: (I fixed it)

If that is the only mistake I made, I will be very surprised......
 

Man of Many Vices

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There are plenty of jobs requiring a college degree that are as repetitive and mundane as some factory jobs.

If you want to work on an assembly line, go to law school, join the district attorney or public defender's office, and get assigned to the arraignment calendar where the primary focus is to get defendants in front of the judge and out the door with the minimum amount of time or brainpower expended.

Same will probably be true for doctors once ObamaCare kicks in.
 

sberry

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Is it worth it to spend a lot of money for brand tool? The simple answer is:.. no. Because Wrenches are not worn out, but usually laid forgotten, stolen or simply left. This is, of course, far less painful if the respective Wrench has cost just a few cents. The 32 euro Snap-on would make you cry...If you own a toolbox full of glossy valuables, watch it like a hawk, wrap the toolbox with barbed wire and never even use a single Wrench, this helps, but it makes the screws rather lonely. And my buddy Jochen should be happy with the cheap Indian ...
Basically says one that cost 32 isnt much better than one that is suffecient costing 1.
 

sberry

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In my personal experience 20 plus years of brutal day in day out flat rate punishment. I and many others can attest to the SO value proposition. I can sell those SO tools for multiples of what I paid for them
I got some cheap 3/4 wrenches I beat for decades, farm shop and construction, not just by me but multiple men, way beyond what any single user ever would,, flat rate or not, they are still in service but I wouldnt mind knowing where a guy could sell wrenches for multiples of what we paid? I see in the clasifieds and by collector shoppers here buy them for 50 cents on the dollar regularly. Less at auction and estate, here we got guy that had 54K invested, cant get 15 out.
 

darkk

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I always become confused when I read about how we should buy American tools etc to keep manufacturing jobs. I would never want to work in a factory doing the same mind numbing job for 8 hrs a day, don't want my children to have to work there either. To me that would be a pitiful existence. And 90% of my tools I buy are American made but not for reasons so my children can work at those kind of mundane jobs.

When you're between the job you had and the job you want, you'll work at that mind numbing job even longer than 8 hrs a day as long as it feeds your family. Trust me, I've had to do it....gotta do what ya gotta do.
 

IndyGarage

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I'm actually surprised by the test.

I thought Snap-on would have been much better than most, and it was worse than most.

Numbers do not lie however. I know that SO used to be better than the others, so this probably means the others have caught up and maybe even surpassed, rather than SO getting worse.

Unfortunately it means the premium is not for the quality of the tool. It means the premium is for other factors - which could still be valuable - the ergonomics, the financing, the warranty, the fancy truck it comes in.

And there is another factor - which none will admit to, but is definitely a factor - pride.

Owning Snap on Tools is akin to driving a Mercedes Car or wearing an expensive suit - I can tell you that when you drive up in a Mercedes, plenty of people notice. I don't work as a mechanic, but I suspect in the mechanics world - if you have a box full of shiny snappys, other mechanics, and maybe even some customers notice.
 

Wakefield

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It jumps out at me that the wrench test used 12 point wrenches on a hex shape thingy and yet there didn't seem to be a common fail mode of slipping. Confidence builder for my mostly 12 point menagerie. If I remember right the Snap-On was in the top category where they stopped stressing the wrench if it did 240(?) in the box end torture test. In spite of the Snap On having a rather puny looking wall thickness-for fitting tight places.
I wonder if the hex thingy was bigger than the typical 13 mm. nut therefor reducing the chance of slippage? I assume the hex was harder than a typical nut or bolt.
That hex thingy reminds me of seeing a picture of an arm wrestling machine somewhere. An arm wrestling thing for wrenches!
 

sberry

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I will agree with the Mercedes analogy and its fine, A 150 Pickup truck would be more practical, soe things it might even do better but the cost coplarison isn even fair there, its more like 300K sportscar to the 150. Not including taxes and interest.
 

str8axle55

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I can tell you I have used my Flank plus`s daily since 1992, 20 yrs flat rate and never had to warr one of them. I can crank on my 22mm open end, and do weekly tightening lower control arms doing alignments, and I KNOW I won`t bust my teeth with it. I turned a cheapo wrench into a pretzl doing this. I also went to college, got a degree and I fix cars for a living to feed my family. As far as gear wrenches go, I have a set of four, I have had to warranty twoof them. These are the ratcheting type, which I am not really fond of, as they can`t be used to break stuff free, without breaking themselves.
 
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