Need ideas for a shop in B.C.

[rumpity_z28]

Hi guys new to the board here and have to say i love this forum, it is definately all things man! How could i not love it

Im thinking about building a new shop out here in Hope BC, and my idea so far is a 50x60 open span building with a ceiling height of of 12'. I was hoping to get peoples thought on how i should go about this, do i go wood building or steel, slab thickness and that kinda of thing. What are your experiences whith building your shop in the lower mainland area? I have an acre and talked to the fellow at the town hall and size wise im ok to build a shop that size.

 

[RVDan]

I work in a 2000 sq ft steel pole barn. It's cold and noisy.

 

[thightower]

I have a 40x70 Morton pole barn, 14' side walls, 4" concrete slab. Built originally to work on Dad's truck. I can't complain about the building, it gets me out of the elements. The only complaint, I wish he would of built it out of red iron steel. With steel you don't have the trusses to mess with, all open ceiling. One bit of advice, don't skimp on the insullation, makes a big difference.

 

[rumpity_z28]

I have a 40x70 Morton pole barn, 14' side walls, 4" concrete slab. Built originally to work on Dad's truck. I can't complain about the building, it gets me out of the elements. The only complaint, I wish he would of built it out of red iron steel. With steel you don't have the trusses to mess with, all open ceiling. One bit of advice, don't skimp on the insullation, makes a big difference.

So how is the 4" slab been working for you? What would you recomend for insulation? all im thinking for heat (mild winters) was a good wood stove to get me through the winters when i am in there.

 

[ForceFed70]

50x60 is a big shop. For something that big, I think a higher ceiling is in order.

What's really taking off around here are those outdoor wood boilers. Basically a wood stove outside running hot water/antifreeze into the building. A single wood stove in a building that large is going to produce very uneven heat. If nothing else, make sure you install lots of ceiling fans.

Building type really depends on goals, your own skill, etc. Prefab steel, pole barn, or stick build are your traditional options.

If you are sticking with 12' ceilings a 4" slab is probably OK. If you go higher I would step up to a 6" slab.

 

[KPSquared]

Pole building. You can't set a building that big on a slab here in Alberta. Better check local code. Slab thickness is really only related to what you're putting on it. 4" of good concrete will hold up to a lot. Start running semis or tractors in there and you'll want thicker.

 

[thightower]

So how is the 4" slab been working for you? What would you recomend for insulation? all im thinking for heat (mild winters) was a good wood stove to get me through the winters when i am in there.

The floor looks good for being 30 years old, no chips to speak of. Just a few stains from oil. We've split tractors, and about anything you can think of to do to a truck and trailer.

When Dad insulated the building he had them install foil backed sheets, I believe about 5/8" thick. He installed electric heat, when it was freezing out it would keep the building at 60 deg, and not run all the time.

Just have to remember, it was built in the 80's, so we used what was available at the time. Its still a good solid building. I've seen different insulation styles, sheet, roll, etc. To me the insulation in a shop building is the most important part of the constuction.

 

[rumpity_z28]

50x60 is a big shop. For something that big, I think a higher ceiling is in order.

What's really taking off around here are those outdoor wood boilers. Basically a wood stove outside running hot water/antifreeze into the building. A single wood stove in a building that large is going to produce very uneven heat. If nothing else, make sure you install lots of ceiling fans.

Building type really depends on goals, your own skill, etc. Prefab steel, pole barn, or stick build are your traditional options.

If you are sticking with 12' ceilings a 4" slab is probably OK. If you go higher I would step up to a 6" slab.

Yeah i was thinking 6" to avoid any possibilities of cracking and because i want to have a lift or two in there also

Pole building. You can't set a building that big on a slab here in Alberta. Better check local code. Slab thickness is really only related to what you're putting on it. 4" of good concrete will hold up to a lot. Start running semis or tractors in there and you'll want thicker.

so i probably have to do a pony wall first then assemble the building on that and then have slab poured? dont know if pony wall is the right term haha

 

[K13]

So how is the 4" slab been working for you? What would you recomend for insulation? all im thinking for heat (mild winters) was a good wood stove to get me through the winters when i am in there.

With wood burning stoves you better check with you insurance company because most will not insure detached buildings with that type of heating unit and it is pretty much a sure thing they won't if you have a vehicle in the building.

 

[rumpity_z28]

With wood burning stoves you better check with you insurance company because most will not insure detached buildings with that type of heating unit and it is pretty much a sure thing they won't if you have a vehicle in the building.

excellent point im going to have to check into that thnx

 

[rumpity_z28]

anyone have any thoughts on whats less expensive to build ie steel building as apposed to wood frame or other designs?

 

[KPSquared]

Yeah i was thinking 6" to avoid any possibilities of cracking and because i want to have a lift or two in there also




so i probably have to do a pony wall first then assemble the building on that and then have slab poured? dont know if pony wall is the right term haha

Not pony walls. Look at Goodon Industries pole buildings. Just poles in the ground... all the hangers and big shops around here are pole buildings.

If you don't do that, you have to have an engineered grade beam. Depends on local codes.

 

[Delta74]

Nice size, but I would try to go taller, esp if you want to put a hoist in, you may find the 12 feet to really limit what you can lift. and I would look at your local home hardware and price out the Roxul insulation, helps to muffle sound, its ok if it gets wet / damp and really works well, its worth the small increase in price. and here in West Kelowna the home hardware beats out Big orange on just about every price.

 

[rumpity_z28]

ok so from what im reading maybe i should go 14' height, for insulating i was thinking of getting one of those companies that do the spray on insulation if i do go steel. the reason i like the steel idea is its something i can assemble myself with a couple of buddies

 

[KPSquared]

Once you price spray foam you'll be here looking for any other option.

I love working with Roxul but it is significantly more expensive. Just did my shop with it.

I'm at 12' 6". Probably could have gone higher but a hoist will fit so I'm good. Price out both heights. The extra 2 feet is cheap to frame but costly to finish.

 

[Heaty]

A 3000 SQft shop with 2 floors in the lower mainland is costing me $6000.00 Running a shop in the big city doesn't come cheap. Renting/Leasing payments every month takes away a big chunk from revenue every month.

 

[rumpity_z28]

Once you price spray foam you'll be here looking for any other option.

I love working with Roxul but it is significantly more expensive. Just did my shop with it.

I'm at 12' 6". Probably could have gone higher but a hoist will fit so I'm good. Price out both heights. The extra 2 feet is cheap to frame but costly to finish.

thats very good info, playing around with these steel kits i've been finding online and it seems the cost for insulation from them would be in at around $6-7000 which seems like a lot of money but hey its a big shop i guess.

A 3000 SQft shop with 2 floors in the lower mainland is costing me $6000.00 Running a shop in the big city doesn't come cheap. Renting/Leasing payments every month takes away a big chunk from revenue every month.

This shop is just going to be for myself and friends to putter around on our cars in, no revenue plans for now. Just tired of stumbling around in the shop i have now which is around 800 sq feet.

 

[ConCretin]

Yeah i was thinking 6" to avoid any possibilities of cracking and because i want to have a lift or two in there also

Just so you know, the thickness of the slab won't have a big affect on potential cracking and nothing will "avoid any possibility of cracking"

When it comes to cracks caused by heavy loads, slab thickness is less important than your sub base. It's the soil underneath that needs to support loads you place on the slab. 8-12" of well compacted granular base is what you want.

The other likely cause of cracking is shrinkage. You should focus on controlling mix water and proper curing to minimize shrinkage cracks but even this probably won't be enough with slab as big as your. Sawcut control joints will help ensure the cracks aren't visible.

Good luck with your build.

 

[rumpity_z28]

Just so you know, the thickness of the slab won't have a big affect on potential cracking and nothing will "avoid any possibility of cracking"

When it comes to cracks caused by heavy loads, slab thickness is less important than your sub base. It's the soil underneath that needs to support loads you place on the slab. 8-12" of well compacted granular base is what you want.

The other likely cause of cracking is shrinkage. You should focus on controlling mix water and proper curing to minimize shrinkage cracks but even this probably won't be enough with slab as big as your. Sawcut control joints will help ensure the cracks aren't visible.

Good luck with your build.

excellent info the shop is in a flood zone so it will have to be .6 meters above existing lot elevation or nearest road (whichever is higher) so its looking like the existing area will have to be raised a good 3 feet so it wont be hard to give it a good base.

 

[AMCguy]

I know the area well. I built a shop in Chilliwack. We now live on the coast where I built a shop once again.

I'll make a few recommendations. All of these are assuming you want to save a bunch of money doing the bulk of the building yourself.

FOUNDATION. Build a footing and a four foot concrete wall. Right now concrete is a lot cheaper than conventional wall building and finishing materials, so it's the cheapest way to go vertical. Other benefits are your wood will be further from the ground and can't rot. Another is you will have a durable interior where you are likely to damage it with a jack or a car or something. Unlike with a monolithic slab, you can enclose the building first and then poor the finished floor under any weather condition.

FLOOR. On a compacted base I would lay 2 inch high density styrofoam then a 6 ml vapor barrier, then pour a 5 inch non reenforced slab. I would put control cuts in the finished floor. How many is really up to you. I did this in my present shop. It really keeps the heat in and the dampness out. You know how soggy Hope can be.

WALLS. With eighteen inches of frost protection you will now have 2 1/2 feet of concrete above grade. Build an eight food stud wall. I know this doesn't sound very tall, but read on. This will be a cheap wall and very quick and easy to build and stand up. Combined with your 2 1/2 feet you will now be 10 1/2 feet high around the perimeter. This makes it easy to finnish the exterior and easier to get up on the roof to build it or maintain it. It makes a fall from the roof less life threatening. It also makes the building less imposing on the landscape.

TRUSSES. I recommend an engineered 5-12 pitch scissor truss. This would make the roof angle easy to walk on. On the inside, it should give you just over an additional 5 feet of ceiling hight down the middle of the shop. Adding it all up, now you have over 15 1/2 feet and thats plenty of headroom for a lift.

ROOFING. I'd go metal. They are common out your way so it would be almost as cheap as asphalt and would go a whole lot faster. This is where I would hire a contractor. They want you business.

HEATING. Look into propane or natural gas radiant. You know the overhead tube type. With the insulation I mentioned, the floor will be warm enough for bare feet even in the dead of winter.

In general, I think by going conventional wooden stud construction, you can do it yourself, complete it as time and money permit and you can take advantage of some sales, as this is the most common construction method and therefore materials will always be priced competitively.

Good luck.

 

[rumpity_z28]

I know the area well. I built a shop in Chilliwack. We now live on the coast where I built a shop once again.

I'll make a few recommendations. All of these are assuming you want to save a bunch of money doing the bulk of the building yourself.

FOUNDATION. Build a footing and a four foot concrete wall. Right now concrete is a lot cheaper than conventional wall building and finishing materials, so it's the cheapest way to go vertical. Other benefits are your wood will be further from the ground and can't rot. Another is you will have a durable interior where you are likely to damage it with a jack or a car or something. Unlike with a monolithic slab, you can enclose the building first and then poor the finished floor under any weather condition.

FLOOR. On a compacted base I would lay 2 inch high density styrofoam then a 6 ml vapor barrier, then pour a 5 inch non reenforced slab. I would put control cuts in the finished floor. How many is really up to you. I did this in my present shop. It really keeps the heat in and the dampness out. You know how soggy Hope can be.

WALLS. With eighteen inches of frost protection you will now have 2 1/2 feet of concrete above grade. Build an eight food stud wall. I know this doesn't sound very tall, but read on. This will be a cheap wall and very quick and easy to build and stand up. Combined with your 2 1/2 feet you will now be 10 1/2 feet high around the perimeter. This makes it easy to finnish the exterior and easier to get up on the roof to build it or maintain it. It makes a fall from the roof less life threatening. It also makes the building less imposing on the landscape.

TRUSSES. I recommend an engineered 5-12 pitch scissor truss. This would make the roof angle easy to walk on. On the inside, it should give you just over an additional 5 feet of ceiling hight down the middle of the shop. Adding it all up, now you have over 15 1/2 feet and thats plenty of headroom for a lift.

ROOFING. I'd go metal. They are common out your way so it would be almost as cheap as asphalt and would go a whole lot faster. This is where I would hire a contractor. They want you business.

HEATING. Look into propane or natural gas radiant. You know the overhead tube type. With the insulation I mentioned, the floor will be warm enough for bare feet even in the dead of winter.

In general, I think by going conventional wooden stud construction, you can do it yourself, complete it as time and money permit and you can take advantage of some sales, as this is the most common construction method and therefore materials will always be priced competitively.

Good luck.

wow thats great info, so you can buy a truss that will span 50'? I just recently stumbled upon these sip walls which are prebuilt and i guess you just drop them in place. So that would make like even easier Hey do you know of a good place that would be good to deal with when it comes to trusses?

 

[AMCguy]

50' should be no problem. I think the largest 2x4'' conventional truss is 52'. A scissor truss would have to be beefier and possibly a little shorter. This is the cool thing about being in the planning stage. You can spend lots of time looking at different designs and pick the one that will work for you. There are several truss companies in the lower mainland that you could deal with directly. I think you might be better off however, going through a lumber yard.

Canex Building Supply in Chilliwack is the biggest independent out your way, but in this economy they all want your business badly. I would go to more than a couple and let them see your plans.

I looked into SIP construction a while back. At the time I found the panels cost a great deal more than the sum of their parts and what I thought was reasonable to manufacture them. I don't know who is making the extra money but the idea rubbed me the wrong way. Although a slick method, I think the product lacks versatility. But that is just me.

 

[rumpity_z28]

thnx amcguy excellent info again, i've never built anything on this scale and not sure of how all the permit thing works. Do i need some kind of engineered plan to start on something like this? All i know so far is that i have the room to build a shop this size as long as it is .6 meters above the nearest road or existing ground whichever is higher. If i do need a engineered plan how would someone go about getting that?

 

[Kevin_b_c]

I'm in Langley and I've been looking into getting a steel garage from this company: http://easybuildstructures.ca/steel-residential-buildings.html
In the prices they quote, they include engineered drawings. So if you are thinking of going with a steel building, they will include these drawings.

Otherwise, you'd have to find an engineer to draft you up some plans to submit. Here's a link to some craigslist ads:http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/search/sks?query=engineer&srchType=A&zoomToPosting=

Just tried searching for engineers in the fraser valley craigslist and came across this: http://abbotsford.en.craigslist.ca/mat/3460728423.html
It's only 30x60, but might offer a good starting point.

 

[DPelletier]

I also know the area VERY well. ;-) I spent 15+ years in Hope and my family still lives there. Where are you located?

Anyway, I'm sure with that footprint, you'll need a foundation wall; check with the Town and say hi to Linda for me when you're there.

It's pretty hard to beat the cost of a pre-engineered metal building for that size. They are non combustible, can come insulated and require very little maintenance or upkeep. I have a 40' x 100' steel shop for my business.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[rumpity_z28]

Hey dave long time no see haha, im out on elder rd. Getting some quotes on steel building right now actually should be interesting to compare different manufacturers prices

 

[AMCguy]

Where I built last (here on the Sunshine Coast) I was able to submit a simple line drawing showing the various details (no blueprint) to the building dept. The only engineering required is on a concrete wall over four feet in hight, A 2x4 wall over ten feet in hight or a 2x6 wall over twelve feet in hight. Any manufactured truss will be engineered and will come with drawings. I doubt that Hope will be much, if at all different.

I chose a four foot concrete wall and a twelve foot 2x6 wall and avoided the cost of an engineer's stamp on my plan. It would have cost me around $500.

 

[KPSquared]

First thing I'd do is head into the county/city/municipality head office or scour their website and find out what is required/allowed. When I built mine it was laid out pretty clear.

Local building code had a big impact on my design. . .either engineered grade beam or concrete frost walls 4' below grade for anything over 700 sq. ft. Could be totally different where you live. Just ask. Ask about permits and anything else you can think of.

I found out I wasn't allowed to put a bathroom in my shop. . .who knew. . .so I didn't. Well, at least they think I didn't.

 

[ForceFed70]

Where I built last (here on the Sunshine Coast) I was able to submit a simple line drawing showing the various details (no blueprint) to the building dept. The only engineering required is on a concrete wall over four feet in hight, A 2x4 wall over ten feet in hight or a 2x6 wall over twelve feet in hight. Any manufactured truss will be engineered and will come with drawings. I doubt that Hope will be much, if at all different.

I chose a four foot concrete wall and a twelve foot 2x6 wall and avoided the cost of an engineer's stamp on my plan. It would have cost me around $500.

Beams for the garage door(s) will also need to be engineered if on the load bearing walls (not the gable ends).

 

[AMCguy]

I wasn't made aware of that. My doors are indeed on the gable ends.

 

[AMCguy]

Actually come to think of it I have some pretty big beams in the carport potion of my garage. They didn't require engineering. The plan checker at the district office just specified 3 ply 2x10s. I went 4 ply because it sat squarely on my 6x6 posts. He may have done me a favor. I don't know.

 

[rumpity_z28]

ya gotta love the look of cedar siding that looks great

 

[BABCO]

My fellow Canucks

Its great to see a bunch of Canadians all in one thread.
For most home lifts 2 post or 4 posts 4" of 3000 psi concrete is all that required.
For a 2 post lift you will want 12'6" of ceiling height,, you can get away with a little lower but 12'6" is a safe. I get a lot of calls and e-mails where they are short on height and then they modifying the ceiling to fit the clear floor lift or putting the posts through the ceiling . babco is still offering a discount on lifts for Canadian GJ members on both Dannmar and BendPak lifts.

Thanks for your support and business

I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a great 2013!

Bruce from Babco
[email protected]
www.babco.ca
www.babcotools.ca

 

[Kevin_b_c]

Beams for the garage door(s) will also need to be engineered if on the load bearing walls (not the gable ends).

I wasn't made aware of that. My doors are indeed on the gable ends.

You must have mis-read his post. He meant if the doors are on the load bearing walls (side walls of your garage).

 

[AMCguy]

Actually, I did catch what he was saying, but I worded my response carelessly. What I should have taken the time to say was, had my plan called for doors on the load bearing walls. I would have been made aware of any engineering requirement at that time.

 

[Zengineer]

I've been looking at these guys for a while:

http://www.steelbuildingcanada.com/index.aspx

40'x60' with 16' walls for $27k delivered to Hope... -$2500 if you want to stick with the 12' walls.

+$6k for R20 insulation.

 

[Weedwaka]

I suggest you pick up the biggest , baddest rain gutters you can get your hands on. Seems its raining every single time we drive through Hope. We call it "Hope It Stops Raining" lol.

Good luck with the build. =)

 

[rumpity_z28]

I've been looking at these guys for a while:

http://www.steelbuildingcanada.com/index.aspx

40'x60' with 16' walls for $27k delivered to Hope... -$2500 if you want to stick with the 12' walls.

+$6k for R20 insulation.

well i've decided to do a stick build and go with metal siding and roofing. I like the idea of no beams and walls that are easy to attach banners and what no to. I'm also going to run the pex for infloor heating for future use, atleast with the lines in there i have that option open to me. also going to check on trusses and see if i can get something that allows for storage up top. I'm planning on starting this in the coming summer by ripping down the old shop and getting the foundation poured and then go from there.

I suggest you pick up the biggest , baddest rain gutters you can get your hands on. Seems its raining every single time we drive through Hope. We call it "Hope It Stops Raining" lol.

Good luck with the build. =)

haha yeah no kidding i've left hope headed west out of town in an absolute blizzard only to find ten minutes down the road that the sun is shining and its a beautiful day, kinda like the bermuda triangle i guess

 

[camarotoolman]

I like AMc's ideas, but I would just make the walls block up the way up. I think it would be easier and cheaper. imo

 

[rumpity_z28]

I like AMc's ideas, but I would just make the walls block up the way up. I think it would be easier and cheaper. imo

yeah im going to add that in and just have the foundation come up another two feet, i thought it was a good idea too