robe5000
Well-known member
looking at his patent info it would seem his patent is for voltmeter leads, PP3 and voltpro are not test leads, i would say Dan is SOL
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Waekon patent infringement on Loadpro
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MrMark
Well-known member
You just need a 25 ohm resistor and a microswitch. All this thing does is switch between the resistor and no resistor. The resistor allows about .5 amp of current to flow to B-. The multimeter reads the voltage at the load point. It is designed to make a simple voltage drop test without the load, like a headlight. IT IS THE LOAD. But, it is not the real load which may be much more or much less. You can do a far better test by leaving the load in place and powering the circuit and putting your voltmeter across the suspect wire and looking for the voltage drop of the wire. Different circuits have different allowable voltage drop, depending on the wire gauge, but you will learn from experience what is acceptable and what is not. Let's say anything over .6 V drop is not good for most circuits.
The Waekon device on the other hand is a logic probe, voltmeter, loader, pulser, glitch capture and more. It has actual circuit board with a logic probe circuit, a voltmeter circuit, glitch circuit. You get the picture. It's like comparing a hammer to a nail gun.
The Waekon device on the other hand is a logic probe, voltmeter, loader, pulser, glitch capture and more. It has actual circuit board with a logic probe circuit, a voltmeter circuit, glitch circuit. You get the picture. It's like comparing a hammer to a nail gun.
richfinn
Well-known member
When you plug those Load-Pro leads into a decent meter/scope they do all that and more and the quality of the meter on that device really bothers me as does the PP3.
richfinn
Well-known member
How does the volt-pro load both ground and supply at the same time if its only got the one test point?
MrMark
Well-known member
But the point of these small devices is convenience and speed to bypass using a multimeter for quick tests. Moreover, the multimeter does not have a pulsing logic grab that can show an injector pulse, for example. Thus, the Waekon device would be nice for that function that you can't do with the multimeter. It also has a glitch capture that may not be included in the multimeter or it may be better (faster) than the multimeter. Also, you tell me how you do logic probe functionality with the multimeter? I know how you might be able to do it but it is a pain. The beauty of devices like these logic probes is the connection to both terminals of the battery.
So, tell me the logic probe functionality with the multimeter to see if you would do it the same way I would.
So, tell me the logic probe functionality with the multimeter to see if you would do it the same way I would.
rmc115
Well-known member
Snap on is carrying the load pro under the blue point label. I bought one 3 weeks ago, same price as direct. Mike
MrMark
Well-known member
?????
MrMark
Well-known member
Waekon also makes a dynamic load test machine which would be much more exacting if you were determined to do your v drop testing without the actual load in place.
richfinn
Well-known member
OK Mark, I,ll have a go at explaining how I determine live/ground/open using a DVOM and Load Pro. With the black meter lead to earth
1. Ghost voltage (voltmeter reading unstable) means open circuit
2. 0.00v means you have continuity to ground
3. Voltage means you have a supply available
I really cant see a scenario where a logic probe offers any advantage over a DVOM for vehicle testing, I can also test for an injector signal fairly easily with a DVOM either set to Hz/Ms or even DC volts (look for the average).
I can also use my Load-Pro leads to measure resistance and Current flow with the same meter which is pretty convenient and the display on my Fluke is a lot nicer than that volt-pro
richfinn
Well-known member
Load-Pro loads the entire circuit (ground/supply) using 2 probes one for the supply/one for ground.
How does the volt-pro do this as it appears to only have one test probe??
MrMark
Well-known member
the point I was trying to make is that the multimeter is cumbersome to use compared to a logic probe if you are just probing to see power and ground circuits. To do those tests you detail, which are fine, you have to keep switching your multimeter leads back at known good sources for either power or ground, usually the battery. To see that 0.00V to confirm the wire is a ground you have to go across the wire back to the battery (the known ground). As I said the beauty of these quick type devices is that they have permanent connections to both B plus and minus to do the logic comparison for you.
richfinn
Well-known member
OK I see your point, but I would counter it with the fact that a good quality DVOM like a Fluke 87/88 fitted with a set of Load-Pro test leads is a more rounded tool as you can use it to make resistance/current measurements as well as voltage/circuit loading and a whole array of other tests.
I will go out on a limb and say I can already see a major flaw in the volt-pros design that no one has been able to answer yet.
robe5000
Well-known member
another good point for the LoadPRO,and i guess the PP3 as well is that you can hook all of the various lead probes up to either unit, looks like the volt pro wants you to probe the wire casing and it does not accept other test lead attachments, i don't know what you guys work on, but the can-bus circuits i work on have 22-24 gauge wire and operate on very low amperage, only backwoods ****-holes pierce wires nowadays
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robe5000
Well-known member
theres no debate to be had here, any good tech knows theres no tool out that replaces a high quality DVOM, none i know of anyway, all of these tools are neat, but the loadpro is simple, it adds a great piece of functionality to a tool your going to have out while electrical troubleshooting anyway
Steinmetz
Well-known member
I've watched Mr. Sullivan's video. In the interest of full disclosure, I am a Patent Attorney.
In my estimation, Mr. Sullivan did himself a real disservice in his attempt to take his case to the "court of public opinion". Although I understand his emotional attachment to his invention, his family and parents, etc. he's alleged that others "stole my patent". He's unfortunately put Waekon in apprehension of suit, such that Waekon may now sue him in a declaratory judgment suit, and force him to prove infringement. Truly bad news because he'd have to prove that they're infringers and defend the validity of his own claims, and spend tons of money on it and wind up a BIG loser when he can do neither. And by the way, Waekon chooses where to sue, which would be very inconvenient to Sullivan. Guaranteed.
He really needed some professional advice before he did this.
In my estimation, Mr. Sullivan did himself a real disservice in his attempt to take his case to the "court of public opinion". Although I understand his emotional attachment to his invention, his family and parents, etc. he's alleged that others "stole my patent". He's unfortunately put Waekon in apprehension of suit, such that Waekon may now sue him in a declaratory judgment suit, and force him to prove infringement. Truly bad news because he'd have to prove that they're infringers and defend the validity of his own claims, and spend tons of money on it and wind up a BIG loser when he can do neither. And by the way, Waekon chooses where to sue, which would be very inconvenient to Sullivan. Guaranteed.
He really needed some professional advice before he did this.
MrMark
Well-known member
I don't know right now. You are saying that it can't load test the ground side it seems. The waekon takes power to ground through its own leads bypassing the connectors ground wire path. So I see what you are saying.
MrMark
Well-known member
good point
signcrafter
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I know my electrical knowledge is lacking compared to you two so I might not know what I'm talking about but since the weakon voltpro is hooked up to the battery pos and neg couldn't you touch the probe to the pos side of the circuit to test that and then touch the probe to the neg side of the circuit to test that to accomplish what the loadpro does?
KPSquared
Well-known member
A-FREAKIN-MEN
There are way to many monkeys with test lights runing around. Multi-what? Same guys that use scotch-locks. . .
Steinmetz
Well-known member
On the contrary, I've looked at his broadest claim (number one), and it recites only two or three elements (remember here "less is more"). All he has to do to show literal infringement is to demonstrate that the accused device has these two or three elements.
The Akin Gump firm is a good one, and they did a pretty good job for him. But I'm sure it wasn't cheap. It's a very reputable firm.
Givl Reggin
Banned
You can't be sued for asking a question.
MrMark
Well-known member
THat may be it. But it would require some sophistication because on the positive side it is using power from the connector's 12V but on the negative it would have to switch to using power from the tool's connection to the bat.
robe5000
Well-known member
randomly came across a video with Dan Sullivan demoing the LoadPRO, he's not kidding, he is NOT a salesman, he also seems to be lacking a personality
starts at 09:50 min
P.s. the Power probe guy is in part 1, easy to see why their tool is successful
starts at 09:50 min
P.s. the Power probe guy is in part 1, easy to see why their tool is successful
Steinmetz
Well-known member
He made an assertion. He most certainly has opened the door.
I haven't use any of these tools, but I have a question with the loadpro. The loadpro is only loading the circuit with the DMM battery? I am not sure how accurate you can perform a loaded circuit test with such low current flow especially with components that required large amount of current. Based on what I read here, I would go with PP3.
A circuit needs to make a full circle, connection to the dmm battery has no path back to the dmm pos battery, loadpro connects thru a resistor to the cars ground and battery.
The man who invented and patented the basic idea behind TV never got a DIME. RCA waited out the 17 years until the patent expired.
I have sympathy for Dan, but he is 13 years into the LoadPro, what sort of damages does he feel he is suffering from their Volt Pro?
MrMark
Well-known member
No. That would not work.
The loadpro is actually very clever in its simplicity. It really is just a resistor and a switch and a set of test leads with a couple of connection points.
I just drew one out for my edification. The black wire on the loadpro is connected to the switched red lead (which has two wires within it) at that square block that seems to serve no purpose. If you look I think you will see that the red lead coming from the probe is fatter than the others. That is because there are really two wires in there. One goes straight through and is the unswitched red lead to the multimeter that is across the load, the other wire in the red lead is connected via a single pole single throw switch to the probe tip and then that wire has the 25 ohm resistor to allow around .5 amp to flow (on a good circuit with no bad connections, poor connection would add resistance and less current would flow) and then that line is "T'd" into the black lead at that square block. This allows the load current to bypass the multimeter and flow in the normal loop from B+ to ground.
No current can flow into the multimeter because of the 10MOhm input impedance. The cleverness as I see it is the "T" connection at that square block that allows the current to flow and complete the circuit thereby "loading" the circuit while allowing the multimeter to remain planted squarely across the resistor "load" of 25 ohms.
That is how I see it anyway.
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Dan_Sullivan
Active member
MrMark - You nailed it. I understand that the tool is insanely simple - that's the reason the patent was so difficult, and why the claims are so broad. Mr. Steinmetz is correct that there are potentially patent ramifications to my video, and I did seek help from my patent attorney before proceeding. Nothing I said about the meeting with Waekon was false. The patent establishes a switched load through leads to a voltmeter. The Volt-Pro has a voltmeter, a load and a switch --- it's pretty clear.
I appreciate the comments made by Mr. Hootbro as well. What I recorded was pretty much stream-of-consciousness, and I edited as best I could. I agree that an emotional appeal is only part of any argument, but it's there nonetheless. If anyone else has fought off bankruptcy for 13 years, taken on 4 step-kids, lost his parents, and lost his family because his sisters took the estate and accused him of theft - and had double-bypass surgery at 46 from stress - AND had to fight what feels like the entire world of pin-headed engineers - feel free to comment on the emotional content of my message. Walk a mile in the steel-toes...
The practical aspect of the patent matter is pretty cut and dried - and Mr. pfarber makes a good point. If I could afford to hire pretty women in bikinis to try and curry sympathy I assure you I would. But - I can't. Instead, I told the truth, as I saw it, and I would be happy to debate Mr. Bauman or Mr. Hart. All tools have advantages and disadvantages. But until you've had to deal with the never-ending annoyance of being a teacher who invented a tool, but who can't talk about about it because people complain about his attempt to sell the tool, even though his 30 years of experience makes it clear the tool is a total change to the basic concept of meter reading --- I reserve the right to question your ability to understand.
And as for Mr. Robe5000 - I actually agree. I have made some money over the past few years, but no fortune. And the first rule of business is that you put it all back into the business. The first 9 years were losing years; the next 4 were better, but that money went to make up for the first 9. Now, 13 years later, I'm actually able to spend the few dollars the royalties bring in. The 6'4" 16 year-old really does eat 7000 calories per day. I don't spend my time crying - I spend it teaching, and the only reason I might have to cry is when I hear some guy tell me that he thinks he's too stupid or undeserving to be good at electrical. I usually don't cry though - I sit him down and start teaching so I can prove him wrong.
I appreciate the comments made by Mr. Hootbro as well. What I recorded was pretty much stream-of-consciousness, and I edited as best I could. I agree that an emotional appeal is only part of any argument, but it's there nonetheless. If anyone else has fought off bankruptcy for 13 years, taken on 4 step-kids, lost his parents, and lost his family because his sisters took the estate and accused him of theft - and had double-bypass surgery at 46 from stress - AND had to fight what feels like the entire world of pin-headed engineers - feel free to comment on the emotional content of my message. Walk a mile in the steel-toes...
The practical aspect of the patent matter is pretty cut and dried - and Mr. pfarber makes a good point. If I could afford to hire pretty women in bikinis to try and curry sympathy I assure you I would. But - I can't. Instead, I told the truth, as I saw it, and I would be happy to debate Mr. Bauman or Mr. Hart. All tools have advantages and disadvantages. But until you've had to deal with the never-ending annoyance of being a teacher who invented a tool, but who can't talk about about it because people complain about his attempt to sell the tool, even though his 30 years of experience makes it clear the tool is a total change to the basic concept of meter reading --- I reserve the right to question your ability to understand.
And as for Mr. Robe5000 - I actually agree. I have made some money over the past few years, but no fortune. And the first rule of business is that you put it all back into the business. The first 9 years were losing years; the next 4 were better, but that money went to make up for the first 9. Now, 13 years later, I'm actually able to spend the few dollars the royalties bring in. The 6'4" 16 year-old really does eat 7000 calories per day. I don't spend my time crying - I spend it teaching, and the only reason I might have to cry is when I hear some guy tell me that he thinks he's too stupid or undeserving to be good at electrical. I usually don't cry though - I sit him down and start teaching so I can prove him wrong.
signcrafter
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Dan, glad to see you post on here. I have your loadpro as a DIYer and like it. I don't do a ton of electrical testing so it doesn't get used a lot but I do keep it on my fluke and like the tips on your leads. Like my previous post said I recomend your book all the time because for someone like me who hates reading text books I was able to get threw the book and understand most of it.
Can you explain how the voltpro tests both the positive and negative sides of the circuit? Some guys on here say the voltpro has a ton of more features then the loadpro. The only nice thing I see about the voltpro is the pulsing feature for injector testing and what not and using it as a logic probe.
Would you be able to do a comparison of the two products on what each one can and can't do? I know you are biased and have a lot of pasion for your product but it would be nice if you could give a true review of what each tool can and can't do. Hope you don't take that the wrong way because I have your loadpro and like it so don't mean any disrespect. Just be nice to have a list of the benefits of each tools. Thanks
Can you explain how the voltpro tests both the positive and negative sides of the circuit? Some guys on here say the voltpro has a ton of more features then the loadpro. The only nice thing I see about the voltpro is the pulsing feature for injector testing and what not and using it as a logic probe.
Would you be able to do a comparison of the two products on what each one can and can't do? I know you are biased and have a lot of pasion for your product but it would be nice if you could give a true review of what each tool can and can't do. Hope you don't take that the wrong way because I have your loadpro and like it so don't mean any disrespect. Just be nice to have a list of the benefits of each tools. Thanks
Dan_Sullivan
Active member
I certainly will try. I do have a 13-year bias, but as I say, all tools have ups and downs. My complaint has been that no one was ever willing to really give this thing a chance, because they didn't have the ability to look outside the box. "It's just another Powerprobe..."
I'm shooting a video about ECM power corrosion this week, and I'd planned on showing all 3 tools if I can. It's important to note that the Volt-Pro tests one leg at a time, and it does load the circuit, so it can see corrosion, so it has to load the positive and negative individually using the vehicle supply. If it sees a ground it tests that. If it sees voltage, it tests that. I don't know the Ω thresholds yet.
My problem is I don't think they should be able to build it...
I'm shooting a video about ECM power corrosion this week, and I'd planned on showing all 3 tools if I can. It's important to note that the Volt-Pro tests one leg at a time, and it does load the circuit, so it can see corrosion, so it has to load the positive and negative individually using the vehicle supply. If it sees a ground it tests that. If it sees voltage, it tests that. I don't know the Ω thresholds yet.
My problem is I don't think they should be able to build it...
I empathize with Dan Sullivan's situation and wish him good fortune. I bought his book and his Loadpro leads so that's about all I can do. Honestly I haven't found them all that useful, but I can see how they could be very useful in many situations. If his patent has been infringed then I hope justice eventually prevails.
I'm a pin-headed engineer myself, but I've never been disrespectful to a technician, much less called them names like "jackass" or "idiot." Where I work that would get me fired. Furthermore I don't know any engineers who behave like that - generally we listen to and learn from technicians and get valuable help from them. You can't be a successful engineer by habitually treating technicians or customers like they're inferior. Only doctors can get away with that.
On the other hand, pin-headed engineers sometimes treat salesmen and businessmen like they're misguided or self-serving. For example, a salesman might say a product is a "piece of ****" without a clear explanation of why, or that test lights are useless 1950s technology, or that 80% of all circuit faults are in the wiring without any real evidence of that. From experience we learn to be very skeptical of these sorts of statements and occasionally question them rudely, which annoys the people making them. Still, I wouldn't call such a person an idiot, or a, um, pin head.
I'm a pin-headed engineer myself, but I've never been disrespectful to a technician, much less called them names like "jackass" or "idiot." Where I work that would get me fired. Furthermore I don't know any engineers who behave like that - generally we listen to and learn from technicians and get valuable help from them. You can't be a successful engineer by habitually treating technicians or customers like they're inferior. Only doctors can get away with that.
On the other hand, pin-headed engineers sometimes treat salesmen and businessmen like they're misguided or self-serving. For example, a salesman might say a product is a "piece of ****" without a clear explanation of why, or that test lights are useless 1950s technology, or that 80% of all circuit faults are in the wiring without any real evidence of that. From experience we learn to be very skeptical of these sorts of statements and occasionally question them rudely, which annoys the people making them. Still, I wouldn't call such a person an idiot, or a, um, pin head.
signcrafter
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Thanks for the reply. I agree with you that they stole the idea, but I'm no patent attorny and I know that legal infringement and moral infringement are two different things and big business only care about one of those things. The only thing I see that the voltpro can do that the loadpro can't is the glich feature that they say is as accurate as a scope for testing things like injectors. Unless my fluke can do that also but I don't know how. Can you comment on your opinion if the accuracy of the voltpro is as accurate as a labscope like they claim?
As for the powerprobe in my opinion that is a totally different tool for a different job. I have a PPIII and use it a lot. I put a remote starter in the other week and the PP was real nice as a meter, test light, applying power and ground, and the LED lights. For installs like that the PP is really nice. I also used my DMM with loadpro leads but didn't use the loadpro feature, I did use the leads for the hollow tips on pins. They both have their place. The loadpro is more for finding faulty wires and connections, that is where it really excells. The both have their uses and both are pretty usefull in my opinion.
Please post a link here to your video when you get it done. Thanks
MrMark
Well-known member
Sounds to me like you need to file a case in Raleigh this week, otherwise you may be defending a declaratory judgment action in Cleveland, where you might not fare as well.
Your problem isn't going to be infringement of that patent, it's going to be sustaining its validity - but you already knew that.
That patent took you a long time, no?
How many times did you add to it?
Your problem isn't going to be infringement of that patent, it's going to be sustaining its validity - but you already knew that.
That patent took you a long time, no?
How many times did you add to it?
Steinmetz
Well-known member
The record shows that it was a continuation-in-part application, so there were additions to the inventive concept along the way. Consequently, there is effectively more than a single priority date.
Steinmetz
Well-known member
Mr. Sullivan: The issue is not the truth or falsity of the content in the video, it's that you've made the allegation that they've stolen your invention (i.e., they're infringing) and that potentially subjects you to suit. I can't believe that any competent patent attorney told you that this was permissible, let alone wise from a legal point of view.
Zeke
Well-known member
Dan's first post on GJ sheds some light on (sorry) the subject of testing for us lay electricians:
I, for one, see the usefulness of this ready made and affordable device. Automotive grounding, of the lack thereof, has been the bane of many basic electrical problems in cars. It's hell to look for all the gang terminals and clean them up. Now, if the tool were to find those ganged terminals that are buried behind who-knows-what, that would be a miracle.
Meanwhile, I'm buying into his concept just to know that I can find ground resistance with the press of a button and not have to have a degree in electrical engineering. As far as having a lot of resistance on the hot side, that usually takes care of itself in the form of heat unless, as he shows, the resistance is in series with other high resistance. (Did I say that right?)
I hope he finds some resolution to the patent problem.
I, for one, see the usefulness of this ready made and affordable device. Automotive grounding, of the lack thereof, has been the bane of many basic electrical problems in cars. It's hell to look for all the gang terminals and clean them up. Now, if the tool were to find those ganged terminals that are buried behind who-knows-what, that would be a miracle.
Meanwhile, I'm buying into his concept just to know that I can find ground resistance with the press of a button and not have to have a degree in electrical engineering. As far as having a lot of resistance on the hot side, that usually takes care of itself in the form of heat unless, as he shows, the resistance is in series with other high resistance. (Did I say that right?)
I hope he finds some resolution to the patent problem.
MrMark
Well-known member
No you did not.
Resistance creates heat but it does not take care of itself. It doesn't matter whether the resistance is in the B+ or B- side, it is equally detrimental to the circuit if it is not part of the design.
Resistance creates heat but it does not take care of itself. It doesn't matter whether the resistance is in the B+ or B- side, it is equally detrimental to the circuit if it is not part of the design.
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Zeke
Well-known member
Help me a little then.
MrMark
Well-known member
I just edited it to add to help you.
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Zeke
Well-known member
OK, I wasn't that far off the "Mark."
And, of course, I understand resistance, especially on the B- side, is not part of the design. On some older Porsches I've had, resistance on the ground side of the lights produced some interesting effects as the current sought a ground path. You'd get lights burning that weren't even switched on. Fix the ground, fix the problem.
But in Dan's video, he shows how a lousy ground effects an ECU. I had that problem on an older Cadillac. It ended up finally killing the car's computers.
And, of course, I understand resistance, especially on the B- side, is not part of the design. On some older Porsches I've had, resistance on the ground side of the lights produced some interesting effects as the current sought a ground path. You'd get lights burning that weren't even switched on. Fix the ground, fix the problem.
But in Dan's video, he shows how a lousy ground effects an ECU. I had that problem on an older Cadillac. It ended up finally killing the car's computers.
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