New welder purchase options

[Ajmckay]

Rarely have I actually needed a welder at home, but there have been several instances where one would have been nice. Not to mention the things I could do. I was wondering if you kind folks could give me some opinions on what kind of welder I should get.

Here's what I would be using a welder for:
- Building some furniture such as shelving brackets, aquarium stands, workbenches, wall hooks, etc... This will likely be tube or 1/8" angle, nothing crazy.
- Arts & crafts. I like the look of some "industrial art" and my wife would like me to make some decorative hanger hooks and stuff
- Fixing stuff. A welder would have come in handy many times in fixing random metal stuff such as a , yard ornament, sheared bolt head, garage door track, etc...
- Automotive. I would like to do some work on exhaust mostly, though sheet metal would also be nice too. I would also like to weld a go-kart frame.
- I like bicycles and sometime I would like to weld a bike frame. I would start with steel probably, but someday it would be nice to build with aluminum or titanium (my research indicates that alum may have to wait until I can get a 220v welder - thoughts?)
- Helping out my friends & neighbors with similar tasks


The requirement is that it must be a 120v unit. I have a 20amp circuit in my garage (it just has some lights and the opener on it). I cannot install a 220 as I would have to go through a foundation wall, dig a trench, etc... because my garage is detached - it's not far, but I don't really have the time to install the circuit.

Also, I have about $450 to spend, but it would be nice to be able to get some raw materials and not blow the whole wad on just a welder.

Here is what I'm thinking so far:
Option 1) Buy a cheap Century Electric 70amp stick welder for $50 on CL and use that to learn some of the theory and technique associated with welding. It's got a high and low setting and that's about it. I think it said 18ga to 14ga or something for material thickness.

Option 2) Go for something with more room for growth. I would be limited to flux core at first though. The units I'm looking at are the Eastwood MIG135 (sale for $299 w/shipping!), the Autoarc 130 (by hobart) for $330, the Hobart Handler 125 ($330), or someone is selling a Lincoln 140 HD (home depot?) for $450 new.

Option 3) Go for something in-between. I could sit tight with a flux core only mig such as the Harbor Freight one, or the Northern tool unit ($130). This would give me plenty of $$ left over to build a few things. I've heard that these **** at sheet metal though.

Anyways, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I realize that this question is probably posted a lot, but I'm not so experienced that I actually believe that I've thought of everything!

Thanks

 

[koditten]

I think the Hobart Handler and the Lincoln 140 are what you should lean towards. They are proven, quality machines. Don't even waste time thinking about the stick units.

Get yourself a small can of welding gas (argon/CO2mix) and you will thank me later. Flux core wire is just too big of a pain to deal with.

I hate to say it, but you would be better off blowing you "wad" on the welder. You will have it the rest of your life. One thing nice about the welders I listed, is they don't lose their value like the chinese ones you listed. If you get in a jam were you need cash, these units sell fast and close to what you paid for them.

I started out with 110v unit and they work fine for what you listed.

I hope this helps.

KO

 

[greasemonkey44]

option 2
mig is easy to learn; looks pretty even with **** welds and runs well on a low amp outlet

 

[03protege]

Probably a Hobart handler 140 for that price range.

 

[BFalfa]

lincoln 140 would be a good choice. i would also go with a ar/co2 gas mix.

 

[RV77]

Hobart Ironman 210

 

[sberry]

I will add this,,, running suffecient electric service would be hi on my to do list even if it seems difficult. its already becoming a limiting factor and you havnt even started, not going to get any better, already forcing a decision to start with second rate machines. The Hobart is fine out of all the options,,, why is a welder on cl for 50? Answer,,, no one wants it, probably been well passed around. You will never get the "fundamentals" from that type of machine.

 

[theknurl]

Ajmckay;
take a welding class 1st then, decide
buy used, you can get the entire outfit for less from a business, they're writing it off

I hate to say it, but you would be better off blowing you "wad" on the welder. You will have it the rest of your life.
If you get in a jam were you need cash, good units sell fast and for close to what you paid for them.

+10....stay away from cheap junk

i like Lincolns.....
i used to run my '76 300/300 TIG machine 8 hours a day 5 days a week, in 36 years it used an O-ring in the water valve, still has the same points in it......thanks Jack!

i traded 4 empty K size tanks for a new, on the pallet, Lincoln SP-200 with the spot/stitch timer and Tweco #2 gun in the box

you are REALLY painting yourself into a corner with 20Amps @110V because your duty cycle will kill you if you turn the lights on

run the 220 line you'll thank me later

KO; don't knock stick, thats where all the trick rods are, admittedly i don't do it very often but i have my stinger still

 

[Ajmckay]

Haha you guys are hard-core... Thanks for all the replies!

How about this... I'll ask my neighbor how he ran a 220 to his garage to see how much it would cost in $$ and time. He has a 220v miller mig. The wiring/breakers is cheap enough (Found a place that sells 8/3 or 6/3 wire for $1.25/ft!) it's just the work of actually running the wire from A to B.

It does seem that all the "serious" welders are 220, however, if 120v units were really too underpowered to be useful (for home use) I would think that people wouldn't buy them and their market would shrink. On the contrary I find quite a few 120v welders.

So while I really do appreciate the comments on installing a 220v line I'm still thinking it's not in the cards right now. Would a 120v welder truly be insufficient for the above needs? I really don't plan on using it for more than what I listed. The only exception would be possibly welding aluminum bike frames at some point, but aluminum tubing (for bikes) is pretty thin, with wall thicknesses of about 1mm (about the thickness of 18 gauge aluminum sheet).

So honest opinions, knowing that I'm not a professional, just looking for a nice welder, would you still go with option 2, 120v?
Also, is anyone familiar with the Autoarc 130? It's made by Hobart, yet is priced significantly less than the Handler 140, more in-line with the 125.

Also, do you know what the difference is between the Lincoln 140 HD and the 140c?

If I do get a mig setup, I would like to get gas eventually, probably just a small portable setup like you mention KO.

C-D, the Ironman would be cool, but a bit out of my price range, and well above the scope of work I would like to take on!

Knurl, sounds like a nice trade! On the plus side, I'm installing CFL's in my garage, so the actual light draw will be pretty small.

 

[96snma]

I've got the same situation as you. I bought the Lincoln 140 and its been great. They go on sale quite regularly and got mine for a good pruce. I've built a lot of stuff with it. Tables, motor mounts, ****** bracket and a lot more. I just use flux cored wire as I couldn't afford a bottle at first. Just have to take a wire brush over rhe welds to clean them after. That would be my vote. You don't run into 1/2 in stuff to often so 220 isn't as needed

 

[Ajmckay]

Thanks 96 for the comment. Would you consider $450 for the home depot version a decent deal?

 

[sberry]

The 240 units we are talking about are not monsters.

It does seem that all the "serious" welders are 220, however, if 120v units were really too underpowered to be useful (for home use) I would think that people wouldn't buy them and their market would shrink. On the contrary I find quite a few 120v welders.

It doesnt mean people that buy them know what they are doing, not saying they dont but its a point, its also why so many are for sale and you see so few 200 class, people keep those.

Yes, I think that Auto is a Hobart, not sure what model. In the Hobart small line wouldnt fool with any but the 140 and the real new ones have a couple improvements.

As for the Lincs, I believe the c is continious and they have basterdized all the model numbers for the box store market so I am not familiar with every one but as a rule in small machines really prefer taps, so much easier to set and reset.

 

[cheechi]

It does seem that all the "serious" welders are 220, however, if 120v units were really too underpowered to be useful (for home use) I would think that people wouldn't buy them and their market would shrink. On the contrary I find quite a few 120v welders.

There are 120v outlets everywhere. There are 220v outlets where serious work would be done. If you use a 120v model right, not rushing it on the duty cycle, you won't be welding very much. Little repairs here and there, smaller thinner pieces and smaller joints in general. 220v are serious welders, and they're for serious welding jobs. Both have a market and both fit well when used for their intended purpose.

There's plenty of 18 wheeler trucks out there, but they haven't made people stop buying pickup trucks. Different uses, same basic idea.

 

[Ajmckay]

Good comments, I see your point. Seems as though I've got some (more) thinking to do.

I'll ask my neighbor about running the line tomorrow to see how hard it would be (our houses have the same basic design). Mind you I could use a 220/240 in the garage for other stuff too, such as a nicer air compressor too...

In the meantime, is it possible then to get a decent quality 200 model MIG in my price range?

Also, Sberry, if Google maps is accurate, you're in western Michigan, right. I really like it there! I visit my parents in Ludington all the time and visit the parks.

 

[Outlawmws]

Good comments, I see your point. Seems as though I've got some (more) thinking to do.

I'll ask my neighbor about running the line tomorrow to see how hard it would be (our houses have the same basic design). Mind you I could use a 220/240 in the garage for other stuff too, such as a nicer air compressor too...

In the meantime, is it possible then to get a decent quality 200 model MIG in my price range?

Also, Sberry, if Google maps is accurate, you're in western Michigan, right. I really like it there! I visit my parents in Ludington all the time and visit the parks.

Most of the comments re: 120 Vs. 220 are right on, and on the cheap import units. don't even think about a stick in 120V...

Do follow up on the 220 run, it makes a difference, especially as you mentioned the 20 A circuit is shared. you need a dedicated 20A line for a 120V welder, and you must also use a 20 outlet. Trust me on that!


Your use could get by with a GOOD 120V unit, and 120 or 220, I'd shop around used. they are out the and right often too, especially this time of year.

Also on a welding class; is not something you can teach yourself easily, you need a good background to make good welds.

 

[gte718p]

240 is more versatile then 120v. That is hard to argue. However, you don't need 120 volts for what you are looking to do. I've run a little Hobart Handler for the last 4 years. In 4 years I've only need a 240 welder one time. It does mean I have to do multiple passes with flux wire sometimes which adds time and frustration, but it gets the job done. Its like saying you have to have a Snap-On ratchet to turn a bolt. That being said go blue or red and don't mess with the cheap stuff. Its not in the same ball park. I like Hobart, its made by Miller, for home use. Its a good balance of cost and features for a home user.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

How far do you need to run the 220v? I have three 220v welders and even though I have 220v at both my garage and my auto shop you still need to move the machine around to get it to the job at hand. You don't want to be tied to a 220v outlet with a 6 ft cord do you? If not you'll be in the market for an extension cord anyway and chances are that even if you do a 110v machine you don't own an extension cord that can *really* supply it's current needs. You will need a 12 AWG for a 25 ft cord at a minimum and for a 50 ft cord you really need to go to 10 AWG.

I have built extension cords for my garage and my shop - 8/3 SOOW cord makes great extension cords. Just plug it into the 220v in the house and run it to the shop. Someday when you have more time you can do a permanent install. It is unlikely that you will need to weld and dry clothes at the same time isn't it?

GD

 

[96snma]

^^^ I looked at doing that too but it was to hard at my location.

Thanks 96 for the comment. Would you consider $450 for the home depot version a decent deal?

I paid about 500 all in for my lincoln 140

240 is more versatile then 120v. That is hard to argue. However, you don't need 120 volts for what you are looking to do. I've run a little Hobart Handler for the last 4 years. In 4 years I've only need a 240 welder one time. It does mean I have to do multiple passes with flux wire sometimes which adds time and frustration, but it gets the job done. Its like saying you have to have a Snap-On ratchet to turn a bolt. That being said go blue or red and don't mess with the cheap stuff. Its not in the same ball park. I like Hobart, its made by Miller, for home use. Its a good balance of cost and features for a home user.

That's exactly what boat I'm in. Mines worked for me for 3 years. Needed a 220 once and took it to my buddies dads shop. But if you know what you're doing and take time with multiple passes you can get a lot done. You're talking about fixing small household items not welding together 1/2 in plate. This weekend I built a rolling storage cart as I had a couple old boxes laying around. Used 1.5" 065 square and had zero problems.

 

[Ajmckay]

Total distance from panel to where the 220 outlet would need to be in the garage would be about 50ft or so.

I have thought about just wiring an outlet on the exterior of the house (not for the a welder, then making a 30ft extension cord that would allow me to position basically anywhere.

I'll be looking around some more at decent units. I just checked eBay "completed listings" and a Lincoln 140 HD sold for $349 and it was only about 30 miles from me. Of course what are the chances of that happening again Haha...

I was really seriously thinking about pulling the trigger on the Eastwood model 135 though because it's $299 w/free shipping and I have a 10% off coupon too... I'm not one to jump into purchases though, so more research for sure.

I appreciate everyone's input!

 

[WhoWhatNow]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEAVY-DUTY-...846?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20cdcfeed6

^ This and a Miller/Lincoln/Hobart 220V Mig.

 

[78Bird]

I also think that a Hobart or Lincoln 140 unit would do what he needs. They work great for lightweight things, sheet metal, and such. Nothing he mentioned in the OP would be too much for a Handler 140.

Spend on a decent unit, get a gas bottle, and have a tool that will last for decades. Skip the temptation of cheap UFO brand welders.

Do I still think 220 in the garage is a good idea, yes... but not essential at this time.

 

[theknurl]

Ajmckay;
after thinking for a while....
go oxy/acet;
you can weld, cut, heat, braze and thaw things
the littlest Victor, a J-27 Aircrafter* with;
tips from 000 to 7 will weld up to 3/4"-1 1/4" plate
a J-550 with only a #2 tip will cut 1" plate at 15" a minute
throw a rose bud on it and you can heat and bend things

with a MIG you can weld...
with 20Amp service you duty cycle will be real low

i put 100Amp service in my garage my Lincolns like it

*the J-27 handle is 5 3/8" long and 9/16" in diameter
the welding and cutting capacities are off the Victor card

 

[kazlx]

Buy something used. You should be able to buy a Miller/Lincoln/Hobart all setup with a cylinder for around your $450 budget. You would really be doing yourself a favor. Just use common sense and make sure it's not hammered. Or see if you can find someone that knows their stuff to come take a look with you.

Just FYI, you won't be welding bike frames with a MIG.

Otherwise:
http://www.toolking.com/hobart-5005...ed-handler-140-mig-flux-cored-welder-a-stock/

 

[koditten]

Buy something used. You should be able to buy a Miller/Lincoln/Hobart all setup with a cylinder for around your $450 budget. You would really be doing yourself a favor. Just use common sense and make sure it's not hammered. Or see if you can find someone that knows their stuff to come take a look with you.

Just FYI, you won't be welding bike frames with a MIG.

Otherwise:
http://www.toolking.com/hobart-5005...ed-handler-140-mig-flux-cored-welder-a-stock/

I think he will have a hard time finding a used quality rig. Those screamin' deals go fast. Even the ones that are close to the price of retail go fast. Not saying they aren't out there,its just hard to hit it the right time. Of course if time is not an issue, go for the deal.

This one of those cases where one should not worry about the price. As I said before, you will have a quality unit for the rest of your life. One of my current units is 20 yrs old and it works exactly the same as it was new.

Just get one of the ones I listed and use it and learn it. It is quite fun setting up and learning to weld. As you can tell, we all want to help.

KO

 

[kazlx]

Now's the perfect time...people need $$ for . My heaviest CL browsing is now and tax time

Another option you may want to consider and it's a long shot is a small tig. The Thermal Arc 95S can be bought cheap even brand new. You could buy a new unit with a bottle for under $450. It's tiny, runs off 110V, is relatively simple to use and can easily be used to make the stuff you describe. I learned how to tig on it and it's a great little machine. It will also stick weld. For what it does, it's a great little machine.

http://store.cyberweld.com/tharcstwe95s.html

Works fine for 1/8" sheet fab.

 

[Ajmckay]

Wow! So a lot of thinking needs to be done...

@Knurl, I have considered an O/A setup. I used one before, but only for heating, not cutting/welding. The reason I don't think I'll get one at the moment though is that in a normal homeowner fashion there will be some things where a small tac weld will work better (such as a sheared bolt head) and there will be some scenarios where it may not be best to heat the parts up so much. I am saving your post though as I can use the model numbers should I decide to get one specifically to weld aluminum.

A 100amp service for the garage would rock! I only have a 100amp service to my house!


@KazLX: You don't think welding bike frames with MIG is possible? I would probably start out on steel frames, pretty thin tubesets, but nothing too crazy.

@KO: Thanks for the encouragement! It's appreciated. I've noticed that the "screamin' deals" go pretty quick as well. It's sometimes tough to justify used when it's only a 10% discount over retail too. I like the reconditioned Hobart 140 in Kaz's link though...

@Kaz (again): You know, I actually just recently started reading about TIG. My knowledge is pretty much nothing on the subject, though I have a friend that gets very excited when it's mentioned. I'm not opposed to TIG, though from what I understand an AC/DC unit is needed to weld alum (AC) and I'm not exactly sure how, but it seems when someone speaks of TIG they also talk about a cooler (air compressor, liquid system, commercial cooler...) and various other things.

Given the skillset I'm pretty good with my hands, so no matter the welding style I go with I think I have a good chance at becoming proficient in technique and eventually in theory as well.


So, given the comments on page 2, I have a new option(s).

- Go with a 120v MIG and possibly add in a used O/A setup at some point for aluminum bike frames

Or, research TIG some more and start with that. Here's a TIG setup on CL local to me for $400, how does that compare to the thermal-arc 95S you linked to?
http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/tls/3483254855.html

 

[Ajmckay]

I have to add that I'm incredibly impressed at the literature available for the Thermal Arc 95S....

Found the kit with the TIG torch/regulator for $350... That leaves plenty for gas tank.

Seems to be an extremely versatile machine. Doesn't look like it does aluminum though still...

 

[kazlx]

Thin and mig don't go together. Yes, you can use a mig for something like short tacks on bodywork. You can also back thin sheet with copper or aluminum block to dissipate the heat. I guarantee you cannot mig weld a bike frame. I ride bikes. A lot. I am planning on building a frame. Unless you want a bike frame that weighs 20lbs made from .120 wall, you won't be able to (safely) build a bike frame. You would be much better served from either OA brazing or tig. The Thermal Arc 95 would easily weld a bike frame. Building frames is a whole other art in itself.

For a MIG (also called wire feed for this reason), the electrode is fed from a spool, usually in the machine, out the tip. This actually completes the arc by shorting out and melts into the weld puddle. You can protect the molten puddle while it cools by using a flux cored wire, or by shielding it with a gas (usually 75% argon/ 25% CO2 - many other mixes for other things). You squeeze the trigger and it starts feeding. It's relatively easy to learn to stick things together. Harder to make beads look good. Don't build a trailer for your first project. It's very easily possible to have beads that look ok, yet float on the surface and don't actually fuse the base metals. Will it work for a plant hanger, sure.

For your budget, MIG for aluminum is not a possibility. Actually, welding aluminum at all on your budget isn't really a possibility. You need a completely different liner for the gun, dedicated argon tank to you use and more amps.

TIG. If you have decent hand eye coordination, tig won't be all that hard to learn the basics of, and the 95S is a very basic machine. Instead of feeding out of the gun, you have a 'torch' that produces the electric arc and melts the base metal. It uses a piece of tungsten ground to a point to carry the electricity. It is surrounded by a cup that is fed by an argon bottle. You can basically use argon for everything with tig. There are other specialty mixes, just like with mig, but for tig, argon will pretty much work with everything. You then feed in the filler by hand. It usually comes in 36" wires. You could weld regular steel or stainless by just buying the correct filler.

The 95S is a simple machine. To start the arc, it uses lift arc, which you basically touch the electrode to the workpiece, lift up and the arc starts. To break it, you just sort of snap your wrist. It takes practice. The amperage control is on the machine. On more expensive machines, you can control the amps with a foot pedal, used like a gas pedal. Also on more expensive machines, you can also start the arc by just depressing the foot pedal in which the machine can basically force the arc to jump the gap, without touching the workpiece at all.

If you want to eventually learn to weld aluminum, the 95S would give you the very basic mechanics of tig and would make learning to weld aluminum easier when you could afford/want to buy an AC/DC machine (AC is required to weld aluminum, and is the expensive part of buying a tig, the 95S is DC only, so only ferrous metals, stainless, regular steel). I learned to tig with a 95S. I had a mig for a while and was able to weld decently in a day or so. This was welded with a 95S. I have had that and the Hobart. They are good machines. It depends on what you want to do now and what you see yourself wanting to do down the road. There is a place for both.

 

[kazlx]

Edit: you 'could' do aluminum on your budget but it would involve finding a good deal on an old welder. They work fine, but are 500+lbs and **** electricity like no other.

Coolers are for the torch. Lower amps/ welding duration is fine with air cooled torches. A cooler is just what it sounds like. It cools the torch. Basically a pump with a reservoir that cycles coolant into the torch and back.

That Dragster is an older Thermal Arc. Pretty similar to the 95S. I don't know if I'd pay $400 for it. Maybe 3. You can buy a new 95S and a bottle for around $4-450.

I'm by no means a professional welder, but I've been in your shoes trying to learn what does what and where to start. I just advocate welding on what you can afford. It's one skill that's really nice to have.

 

[frankush]

My 2 cents. Hold out for a Hobart 140. They can be found for about $450. They include the gas solenoid and are a decent machine. I had a handler 120 that just kept on going. I never liked flux core and much prefer the option of solid wire and a shielding gas. I've upgraded to a Miller 180 and sold the Hobart 120 on Craig's in 2 days. Hobart parts are also readily available and they have a great warranty.

 

[carbon]

Here's a beginner's perspective. I have tried OA, tig, and mig welding in a couple of art classes. In descending order, I was more comfortable with: OA, tig, mig.

Here's why: OA is slower and you can see the welding process better with the goggles (shade 5). When I tried tig/mig the auto darkening helmet was INVALUABLE, but you still can't see your surroundings as well with OA. Both tig/mig are noisy and full of electric-popping noises and sparks, whereas welding with OA is relatively calm, with gas rushing sounds. OA cutting is very sparky, however. You need a very unflamable space for that.

Tig was like an electric version of OA; one must use both hands but you are in control of the welding speed.

Mig, on the other hand, was like getting on a treadmill set on a certain unchangeable speed (at least while continuously welding). "No futzing around, GET WELDING!" the mig machine says. Easy to blow right through the material or make a giant blob of welding wire before you can say, "Whoops!"

Both the electric machines were 115v. The miller mig easily welded my 10 gauge sculpture. I used the Lincoln tig mainly as a torch on a bronze sculpture. Once I overheated it and it shut down (air cooled). Nobody else ever overheated it doing normal welding.

I also don't have 220v in my detached garage. We have a gas dryer (no 220v at all in the house) and due to rocky soil it would cost 3000k to run a line from the house (I checked). One thing to check on is to add a second service just to the garage. In my case a power line runs right behind my garage and would cost me $1500-1800 to have installed. But I could have huge amount of amps installed that way.

Anyway, I went with an OA setup due to the cost of getting 220v (esp. for a plasma cutter and I only have a shared 15amp circuit in my garage so 115v machines would blow the circuit unless I was welding in the dark, ha). I bought all new because I didn't feel comfortable evaluating used OA stuff and don't want to blow myself up. With owned tanks, a bunch of tips, and a cutting attachment (all smith) it cost about $1100. I can cut up to 3", weld, heat, bend etc.

Ideally I'd get one of each kind of welders. Tig for aluminum/bronze/stainless, mig for quick jobs (one hand free to position stuff) and OA for cutting thick stuff and heating/bending. Plus a plasma cutter for thinner metal. (insert masterbatory sounds )

But, I believe OA can theoretically do ALL those things with the right flux. But you need to really be good. And you can effing blow yourself up.