120v wiring repair

[Humble Mechanic]

Hey everyone I need some help.

We are selling our house. The inspector found a wire in our electrical panel with some electrical tape on it. There is also a small burn mark near where the tape on the wire. It must have been that way since the house was built in 2004.

We have never had an issue, but the buyers want us to fix it. What is the best way to fix it? I was going to disconnect the wire and heat shrink the spot. Is that an acceptable repair?

Also is it hard to replace an ARC breaker? We have a bad one.

 

[RECox286]

Cap the wire with a wirenut. Purchase a new arc (ugh) fault bkr

then look at it and the bad one. You should be able to figure out

how to change it (what needs to be unscrewed) with little thought.

Make sure the main breaker is OFF before attempting any work in

the panel. If you don't have a main breaker, then look for a firemans'

disconnect out near the meter.

Uncle Bob

 

[skulldrinker]

to bad they have seen it. they prob won't settle for less than complete replacement. some heat shrink may be legal but you'd have to check on that.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hey everyone I need some help.

We are selling our house. The inspector found a wire in our electrical panel with some electrical tape on it. There is also a small burn mark near where the tape on the wire. It must have been that way since the house was built in 2004.

We have never had an issue, but the buyers want us to fix it. What is the best way to fix it? I was going to disconnect the wire and heat shrink the spot. Is that an acceptable repair?

Also is it hard to replace an ARC breaker? We have a bad one.

If there is enough length on the wire, I would cut it and then use a piece of fresh wire and a wire nut to extend the wire to the breaker or bus bar(wherever the burnt wire was connected to).

Replacing an AFCI breaker isn't much harder than replacing a regular breaker. Just get a new one, take a picture of how the old one is wired up for reference, turn off the power to the panel, and replace the breaker.

Cap the wire with a wirenut......

How would caping the wire fix the problem? The wire feeds a circuit!

 

[Sureshot]

Can you loosen the "clamp" that holds the wire in the box? Maybe you will get lucky and there will be enough slack you can get to fix it without heatshrink or a wire nut. Possibly use a close breaker and reassign it.

It's better to be lucky than good.

If you are not lucky you will have to wait until someone chimes in with code.

 

[Humble Mechanic]

there is not enough wire to cut it. From what I can see there are 3 options to repair this.

1) heat shrink the wire
2) replace that section of wire by cutting and using a wire nut to connect a new section of wire. Not sure if it's ok to do that. It would be in the panel and covered so it may not be an issue.
3) add a 1gang box just below the panel. Splice a new section of wire there, then run a new wire into the panel. This is not really the route I want to go, but it seems that would be a pretty legit repair.

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Too freakin bad if they want it replaced! Just fix it legally.

Turn off the breaker.
Remove that tape.
Check to see if the copper conductor was compromised in any way.
If not then tape it back up cleanly. THIS IS A LEGAL AND SAFE FIX.
If the copper was compromised,then you do have to cut and splice it.

You CANNOT splice outside the panel without a box.

 

[Humble Mechanic]

Too freakin bad if they want it replaced! Just fix it legally.

Turn off the breaker.
Remove that tape.
Check to see if the copper conductor was compromised in any way.
If not then tape it back up cleanly. THIS IS A LEGAL AND SAFE FIX.
If the copper was compromised,then you do have to cut and splice it.

You CANNOT splice outside the panel without a box.

Can I splice inside the panel?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Can I splice inside the panel?

Absolutely. That would be my fist choice.

 

[hidollartoys]

You cant technically use the panel as a junction box. So no wire nuts in the panel. You will have to install a box next to/ beside/under/etc and make your splice in it.

 

[Humble Mechanic]

You cant technically use the panel as a junction box. So no wire nuts in the panel. You will have to install a box next to/ beside/under/etc and make your splice in it.

That's what I figured. Luckily that wire come in at the bottom of the panel. It's also by itself. It should be an easy fix.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Speedy Petey]

You cant technically use the panel as a junction box. So no wire nuts in the panel. You will have to install a box next to/ beside/under/etc and make your splice in it.

WRONG. Just plain wrong.

Where does it say this? I know what you are referring to and you are misinterpreting it. Or is it that you've just been told this?


Edit: To say they even changed the wording in 312.8 to expressly allow splices.

 

[Speedy Petey]

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f9/splicing-panel-12902/

 

[Humble Mechanic]

@speedy thanks for the link!

It seems like a splice in the panel is ok. Do you find that inspectors freak out about it?

I don't want to deal with an @ss inspector and have to fix it twice.

 

[SPDMETL]

Call and ask the local code inspector-the guy who checks permit work.

 

[Speedy Petey]

@speedy thanks for the link!

It seems like a splice in the panel is ok. Do you find that inspectors freak out about it?

I don't want to deal with an @ss inspector and have to fix it twice.

They can't freak out about something that is perfectly legal.

 

[Norcal]

You cant technically use the panel as a junction box. So no wire nuts in the panel. You will have to install a box next to/ beside/under/etc and make your splice in it.

That is a urban legend.

But I think that Speedy has already set the record straight.

 

[Speedy Petey]

That is a urban legend.

And has been for years, hasn't it.

It just amazes me that some real electricians still believe this.

 

[ishiboo]

They can't freak out about something that is perfectly legal.

Of course they can.

It's great you have a passion for interpreting the NEC at face value, but the reality of being an electrician, plumber, or any other tradesmen is doing it "right" is not always sufficient.

Code is interpreted locally and sometimes amended locally as well. While it is perfectly "legal" per the NEC as you call it, the NEC has no authority - your local and/or state building departments do. If they have an issue with it, you're SOL.

Home inspectors on a purchase are a whole different animal - they can recommend or suggest whatever they want, and their job is to make recommendations even though they are not licensed or trained electricians. So the home inspector may say "it's legal but not a good idea" or something else stupid.

Hopefully a splice in the panel is acceptable - it's the way to go. And chances are it will be.

 

[ishiboo]

You CANNOT splice outside the panel without a box.

Talk about urban legends!

Of course you can splice outside the panel without a junction box or accessibility. Not that it's appropriate here.

 

[Speedy Petey]

.

Code is interpreted locally and sometimes amended locally as well. While it is perfectly "legal" per the NEC as you call it, the NEC has no authority - your local and/or state building departments do. If they have an issue with it, you're SOL.

This is SO not true!

If the NEC is the code in effect in your area, and there are not written amendments changing things, the AHJ CANNOT simply make his own rules.

 

[theoldwizard1]

@speedy thanks for the link!

It seems like a splice in the panel is ok. Do you find that inspectors freak out about it?

I don't want to deal with an @ss inspector and have to fix it twice.

Take your picture down to the building department and ask to see the electrical inspector (you should call first and find out what hours he is in the office) and ask his opinion.

Remember, neatness counts ! I had to splice in about 12" of 10 gauge inside my panel. First I used a couple of tie wrap to hold the new wire side by side to the old wire and then used the appropriate wire nut.

If the inspector allows it, the simple solution is heat shrink instead of tape. I would use 2 layers of heat shrink if the inspector allows it.

 

[theoldwizard1]

This is SO not true!

If the NEC is the code in effect in your area, and there are not written amendments changing things, the AHJ CANNOT simply make his own rules.

But they CAN make your life miserable.

 

[rodm1]

What is this circuit going to? If it's something with a box close to the panel just run new wire. I think the wire will be way to short to wire nut. Unless you add a box below panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Talk about urban legends!

Of course you can splice outside the panel without a junction box or accessibility. Not that it's appropriate here.

Where did u ever hear or read this or the other silly things you've said in this thread? You absolutely cannot make a splice(inside a wall, which is where there would be no accessibility) without it being in a junction box, gutter, etc. and yes it MUST be accessible! This is one of the first things I learned working as an apprentice for a contractor back in the day! Junction boxes are used to contain potential sparks from lighting flammable materials on fire. Also, if u made a splice in a wire with no junction box, buried it behind sheet rock and then the splice developed an issue and someone else came along to fix it, how the heck would they know where to cut a hole in the sheet rock to fix the problem? That's asking for trouble doing wiring this way!

I don't have my code book in front of me but I know there's a specific section dealing with this exact topic. I'm sure pattenp or speedy will post it!

 

[Sureshot]

So just for arguement sake wouldn't the heat shrink be the best way?
Where would code stand on that?

 

[Humble Mechanic]

What is this circuit going to? If it's something with a box close to the panel just run new wire. I think the wire will be way to short to wire nut. Unless you add a box below panel.

It goes to the outlet above the stove. The microwave/vent is plugged into it.

If I have to add a box, there is plenty of room to add one. There is not a junction box near the panel.

 

[Speedy Petey]

But they CAN make your life miserable.

Why, for questioning a call? If that is the case it is time to go over their heads.
Power mad ego-maniac inspectors need to be dealt with, NOT feared or revered.
No matter what anyone thinks or says, inspectors CANNOT make up their own rules. They can ask for all the crazy **** they want, but a simple "Hmmm, I've never heard of that requirement. Can you point to that in the code book so I can be prepared for next time?" will usually shut them down pretty quickly.

 

[justsam]

While I agree that using some same color shrink tube on the wire would be the neatest fix, I do not believe it would be legal. The insulation qualities of the original wire are known and approved. The use of some unknown shrink tube, unless it too is approved for proper breakdown potentials, and is clearly marked as such, is asking for trouble.

As has been stated here, quality electrical tape, with known properities is OK, it just does not look nice.

I would cut and spice it with a proper size wire nut. I would also clean up that panel where the arc occured, so as not to draw attention.

 

[ishiboo]

Where did u ever hear or read this or the other silly things you've said in this thread? You absolutely cannot make a splice(inside a wall, which is where there would be no accessibility) without it being in a junction box, gutter, etc. and yes it MUST be accessible! This is one of the first things I learned working as an apprentice for a contractor back in the day! Junction boxes are used to contain potential sparks from lighting flammable materials on fire. Also, if u made a splice in a wire with no junction box, buried it behind sheet rock and then the splice developed an issue and someone else came along to fix it, how the heck would they know where to cut a hole in the sheet rock to fix the problem? That's asking for trouble doing wiring this way!

I don't have my code book in front of me but I know there's a specific section dealing with this exact topic. I'm sure pattenp or speedy will post it!

Nope. Code has changed since "back in the day"... remember it continually evolves with not just safety improvements from both results in the field, mathematical analysis of failures (and loss of life/property as a result), and also - improvements and changes in technology and material sciences.

334.40(B) Devices of Insulating Material.
Switch, outlet, and tap devices of insulating material shall be permitted to be used without boxes in exposed cable wiring and for rewiring in existing buildings where the cable is concealed and fished. Openings in such devices shall form a close fit around the outer covering of the cable, and the device shall fully enclose the part of the cable from which any part of the covering has been removed. Where connections to conductors are by binding-screw terminals, there shall be available as many terminals as conductors.

I know specifically of the Tyco (Amphenol) splice/tap kit since my friend works there, but I am sure there must be others. I am not a terribly huge fan of them, but in certain "unfixable without major rework" situations I'd rather fish a UL-listed splicing/tapping device than have a junction box stuck in the middle of nowhere, especially since those problems typically happen on lower-wattage lighting circuits.

Like oldschool plumbers with PEX, I know there are 50,000 million reasons for you "back in the day" guys to not believe in the technology, and I still prefer a junction box. But I've used the Tyco splices and I don't think they'll be causing fires anytime soon.

 

[ishiboo]

Why, for questioning a call? If that is the case it is time to go over their heads.
Power mad ego-maniac inspectors need to be dealt with, NOT feared or revered.
No matter what anyone thinks or says, inspectors CANNOT make up their own rules. They can ask for all the crazy **** they want, but a simple "Hmmm, I've never heard of that requirement. Can you point to that in the code book so I can be prepared for next time?" will usually shut them down pretty quickly.

You shouldn't be afraid to question, but don't be afraid to get shot down. You can spend all day arguing with the AHJ but in the end their decision goes, and you have very little recourse if you don't like it. Pick your battles!

I think the reasons for not allowing it are not because a single splice is bad, but they don't want to see the gutter turn into a ton of messy ********.

And again - this is not something "legal vs illegal". They have a preference to have something which is "legal" "fixed" to be "better" in their eyes, so it is open to interpretation. Electrical tape is fine but I am sure they will want more... will a wire nut and new wire in the panel be sufficient?

 

[Speedy Petey]

I think the reasons for not allowing it are not because a single splice is bad, but they don't want to see the gutter turn into a ton of messy ********.

And again - this is not something "legal vs illegal". They have a preference to have something which is "legal" "fixed" to be "better" in their eyes, so it is open to interpretation. Electrical tape is fine but I am sure they will want more... will a wire nut and new wire in the panel be sufficient?

Sorry. You are 100% WRONG here.


This is NOT open to interpretation, and I don't care what an AHJ "wants" to see. Their "preference" does NOT enter into it.
Some things, like this topic, are definitely NOT open to interpretation. IT IS EXPRESSLY ALLOWED, so an AHJ CANNOT say "I don't want to see that".
Period, end of story.

I'd hardly call a few wire nuts in a panel "a ton of messy ********". IF this were the case then every Gen-Tran panel I have ever installed is illegal because of 10-15 wire nut splices inside the panel.

 

[madosta]

This would warrant a permit.
You should get it inspected.

You will then have proof for sale.

 

[pattenp]

Where did u ever hear or read this or the other silly things you've said in this thread? You absolutely cannot make a splice(inside a wall, which is where there would be no accessibility) without it being in a junction box, gutter, etc. and yes it MUST be accessible! This is one of the first things I learned working as an apprentice for a contractor back in the day! Junction boxes are used to contain potential sparks from lighting flammable materials on fire. Also, if u made a splice in a wire with no junction box, buried it behind sheet rock and then the splice developed an issue and someone else came along to fix it, how the heck would they know where to cut a hole in the sheet rock to fix the problem? That's asking for trouble doing wiring this way!

I don't have my code book in front of me but I know there's a specific section dealing with this exact topic. I'm sure pattenp or speedy will post it!

Well since you mentioned my name there is a new way of doing splices in NM-B without using a junction box.

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...Id=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UNuFWuTAdpE

 

[ishiboo]

This would warrant a permit.
You should get it inspected.

You will then have proof for sale.

Michigan is worse than Illinois apparently... you need a permit to wrap some tape around a wire or wire nut a little length on? Wow!

 

[Humble Mechanic]

I pulled the tape back. There is damage to the wire shielding. It's just one little spot

My plan is to use a heat shrink crimp connector. It says its rated for 600v. Then put some heat shrink over it.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Methinks this is getting blown WAY out of proportion. If the copper is not nicked just tape it back up and be done with it.
It is a legal and safe fix.

 

[Highbeam]

The buyer is now the problem. The repair was legal and safe. If you are willing to do anything based on the buyer alone then you must find what is required to make them happy. It is not code, safety, or law so what is it? Do they not like tape? They might find your shrink wrap equally offensive.

 

[ishiboo]

The buyer is now the problem. The repair was legal and safe. If you are willing to do anything based on the buyer alone then you must find what is required to make them happy. It is not code, safety, or law so what is it? Do they not like tape? They might find your shrink wrap equally offensive.

Exactly.

The buyer can insist you paint it hot pink and wire it to a **** ring if they want. The offer to purchase is probably dependent on a home inspection, in which case the home inspector would be the one giving a "pass" or "fail" so you probably want to start there, though they work for the buyer.

 

[Higgins]

Here in IL all electricians have to be licensed by the state of IL and have passed some tests to get certified!.

In most jurisdictions the local building inspectors really don't get into checking entire electrical installation as the electrician is "licensed and know the national and local codes in more detail than the building inspector!

As for the home inspectors, they are not a Licensed electrical professional and really can't comment on what is, or is not legal when it comes to electrical installations! Technically, they aren't suppose to even open up the electrical panel!!