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What will it cost to heat?

cyamaha2007

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Ok im sure you guys beat this to death. But i need help I have a 36x56x14h pole barn that i need to heat 8 days a month. The insulation is poor but will be changing soon. Is there any way to estimate this? I would like electric heat since i dont have any other energy source on site. I could go to propane but id rather not. My kWh rate is 7.15 cents. I have 300amp service in the barn so available juice isnt a concern. I just dont want to install heat and not be able to afford to heat it. Im out there with a salamander and its terrible with fumes and such. Thanks alot Chuck
 
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kbs2244

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Do you have to heat the whole place?
That is a lot of cubic feet.
I would think about spot heating with electric IR.
 
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cyamaha2007

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Yeah i need to heat the entire place. If i could keep it a 60 degrees that would be great. Thanks alot i appreciate the help.
 

GarageWrench

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If it was well insulated I think you could get away with 2 10.0kw electric heaters. It would be about $1.43 to heat for 1 hour based on your 7.15 cents per kwh. I would put in a couple ceiling fans with them though to keep the heat where your working. You would need a 50 amp breaker per heater and 6-2 wire.

I have a 7.5kw one in my 600 sq ft garage and it works well, 2 of the walls are insulated and I'm working on the ceiling now which has already helped alot. I have a chromalox LUH series which is a little more than their HVH series. Below is a link for the 10.0kw HVH.

http://www.electricheaterwarehouse....-Unit-Heaters--10000-watts-100-kw-_p_549.html
 

Charles (in GA)

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Big questions, does it have a ceiling? is the roof, or ceiling insulated? Or just the walls? I assume this is on a slab. How do the doors fit, tight or is drafts around them? What is the amount of temp rise. ie, cold soaked building, what is the beginning temp and your desired temp is 60 so if its beginning at 30 F you are looking at a 30 F rise in temp.

Do you have any ceiling fans? (will make a huge difference, as the heat will go right to the ceiling and leave you cold on the floor till it heats up all the way down.... heat stratification)
 
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cyamaha2007

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Big questions, does it have a ceiling? is the roof, or ceiling insulated? Or just the walls? I assume this is on a slab. How do the doors fit, tight or is drafts around them? What is the amount of temp rise. ie, cold soaked building, what is the beginning temp and your desired temp is 60 so if its beginning at 30 F you are looking at a 30 F rise in temp.

Do you have any ceiling fans? (will make a huge difference, as the heat will go right to the ceiling and leave you cold on the floor till it heats up all the way down.... heat stratification)

There is a ceiling, it has 1ft of insulation on top of the ceiling. The walls will have 1in of spray foam then regular batt insulation over that. Im planning on 4 ceiling fans. The barn is very tight. The doors are insulated so are the windows. A max rise would be 45 degrees. I hope that enough info. Thanks alot
 

Charles (in GA)

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Sounds pretty tight to me, may not be that difficult to heat.

THIS THREAD of which the first post is a good explanation by Redsky49 about how to calculate heat loss and what you will need for heat. Redsky49 always provided good info when he posted.

Charles
 

dave67fd

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Why would you not prefer heating with propane? Compare your propane costs in your area. Two 10k (20KW) electric heaters will only produce about 68k BTU's. Abit small for that area in my opinion.
 
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mx500

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1 gallon of propane per hour at or close to 100btu (asuming you get a 100btu heater) so if your heater runs for 8 hours per day at $2 per gallon, thats $16 per day. will it run that long? will it be heated over night?
 

Charles (in GA)

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A couple of issues come to mind after reviewing this again.

Is the 8 days consecutive? or are you referring to 4 weekends? The reason I ask is that, with a real tight building, some of the heat sizing hinges on how fast you want it to heat up. If you are going to heat the building once, for eight day, then you could afford to be a little shy on heater size and fire it up the day before. Doing this four weekends a month is a little different, as you have to "preheat" the building four times.

The other issue, with electric, beyond the fact that it is (generally) the most expensive way to heat, is that code limits heating elements/circuits to a max of 60 amps and this means a 48 amp draw max (80% of 60 amp). Larger heaters simply have more than one feed.

Are you planning on having weekend country music productions in there? ie. lots of lights, other power draw? or is it a simple get away where you will run the compressor a little and have basic fluorescent lighting, and not a lot more?

My uneducated, uncalculated, gut feeling from what little we know, is that you are probably going to need at least 150k btu to do the job, and a little more if you want FAST heat up and recovery from an open door, etc.

My thinking is you will need about 4 10K watt heaters to begin to make it work, that would be 136K btu and four 60 amp circuits, thus four runs of #6 to the panel and about 168 amps (four 10K watt, 240v heaters at 42 amp draw each). Thats a bunch of wire, and half of your electric capacity.

Buying new, you are looking at $2000 or more (as much as $3500 depending on your shopping skills), plus the installation costs. The GOOD news is, the heaters will last practically forever, and not need any maintenance. You won't be worrying about cracked burner cans, cleaning out combustion chambers, collecting used oil from people, dealing with water and other **** people will sneak in the oil and refuse to admit to. You won't have to have a propane bottle rent charge, or remember to call and have it refilled, or buy one and shop for a good price.

Its works both ways. I have electric (heat pump) heat in my house, because I am not fooling with firewood, or anything else (I do have a fireplace I've not used since I moved in over 15 years ago), I want to set the thermostat and be done with it.

The shop on the other hand, I am not willing to spend any more than I absolutely have to, to make it warm out there. I spent $5,000 to buy a new waste/used oil fueled furnace heater and then installed it myself. My operating cost is electricity to run the internal fan, combustion fan, ignition, and the ceiling fans and the air compressor (intermittently and not very often). I spend more time that I would like sometimes, gathering up used oil, and I have enough people giving me oil (I work as a mechanic with a bunch of mechanics) that I simply let them know to bring it in to work and I'll take it. I get a gallon or two here and there, and sometimes ten or twelve gallons at a time. So for me, its just some time spent pouring it in the heater and disposing of plastic jugs, and such.

This might be a good situation to use the radiant tube heaters in such as discussed in THIS THREAD, and simply be willing to deal with the propane.

Charles
 
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Charles (in GA)

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A 125000 BTU salamander barely keeps my shop livable in the cold.

64 X 48, no insulation.

All it takes is money, but insulation is a very good investment, even it it is a little bit at a time. I have a friend in Wisconsin who built a rather large attached garage when he built his house, two doors on the front and two on the side. He simply doesn't have the money to buy all the insulation so he bought one or two batts at a time and very slowly over a period of years insulated the garage. Not sure if he is ever going to get it sheetrocked or not.

Charles
 

garelect

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check electric bill closer take total bill taxes n all divied by kilow watt hours used all ways higher than line item of cost per kilow watt my rate is stated 7.64 cents but divided out is more like 13.50 cents kilo watt hour
 

Dick in Wisconsin

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check electric bill closer take total bill taxes n all divied by kilow watt hours used all ways higher than line item of cost per kilow watt my rate is stated 7.64 cents but divided out is more like 13.50 cents kilo watt hour

Your electric utility is required to post their rates. Check their web site.
 
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cyamaha2007

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I will be heating the shop on the weekends. I had no idea it was going to eat that much power. This is more of a pipe dream than i thought. Im going to go shopping for a waste oil furnace. Im ok with one time bills, but i cant stand a sinking ship that is hemorrhaging money. Thanks guys.
 

dave67fd

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Just to note, heating any 2000+ sq/ft area is going to set you back some cash regardless of how you do it.
 

skyking

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Dont even think of using electric. Iminstalling a NG 120,000 btu in my hnagar 50x40 I have 3" insulation all over. Insulation is a MUST.

Dont give up! It is cold in MO. Get some heat.It is worth the cost.
 
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cyamaha2007

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Just to note, heating any 2000+ sq/ft area is going to set you back some cash regardless of how you do it.

I know it will but we have a 2100sqft house, The house is all electric including water and my highest bill was 130bucks. I was kinda hopping to be somewhat close to what the house cost to heat.
 

dave67fd

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Dont even think of using electric. Iminstalling a NG 120,000 btu in my hnagar 50x40 I have 3" insulation all over. Insulation is a MUST.

Dont give up! It is cold in MO. Get some heat.It is worth the cost.

NG would be the obvious choice if the OP had it available. His KWH price maybe cheaper than propane but not sure since he didn't mention it or would prefer not to install.

In many cases electric maybe be cheaper and prefered but when you get into a relatively large space it can become impracticable.

Insulating the space thoroughly and properly should be the first priority. If not you have to be willing to pay excessive high costs until then.
 
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Charles (in GA)

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Your electric utility is required to post their rates. Check their web site.

As I brought up in the discussion on power bills, the rate means nothing, its the total of the bill divided by the kwh consumed that tells you the actual, total per kwh cost of your power. There are all kinds of charges, fixed and variable, surcharges, nuclear charges, fuel surcharges, etc. that is added to it. As was noted, power is more likely to be in the neighborhood of 13 to 16 cents per kwh when you do the math.

Air to air? or ground water heat pump?

Typical air to air 12 seer Trane heat pump system installed in '95. Log house built in '85, owner ran out of money and never installed ANY heat or air. They used a window unit for air and the fireplace for heat. After the owner died in '93 the widow refinanced the house and got extra money to add the central heat and air. Very difficult installation in a existing house. Its a good system, but they zoned it with duct dampers and extra thermostats (I chewed them out for that but they said the woman insisted on the zoned system). After I moved in I called Temp-A-Trol who made the zone system and talked with them about problems I had with the unit chasing thermostats and they finally told me to disconnect and remove everything related to the zone system. After I did that everything worked pretty well, except the upstairs in the summer gets a little hot, really needs a mini-split up there but its not occupied anyhow (cat sleeps on the bed up there sometimes) so I don't worry with it. I run a ceiling fan 24/7/365 in the great room pulling down warm air from above to help even out the temps, which works pretty well.

House is about 2000 sf and considering how loose it is the heat pump doesn't work too hard. Summer power bills are usually around $120, last Jan was high, must have been cold, $188, Feb was $150, bill covering most of December was $142. Spring and fall I just turn it off. Otherwise I don't use much other than a few lights and the hot water. That too is more in the winter since the incoming water is much colder.

Power bill on the shop is usually about $25 with a high month when I use the compressor and welder, lights, etc, might be $35.

Charles
 
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Charles (in GA)

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I know it will but we have a 2100sqft house, The house is all electric including water and my highest bill was 130bucks. I was kinda hopping to be somewhat close to what the house cost to heat.

2100 sq ft but 8 ft ceilings, that is 16,800 cu/ft of space, and the barn is 28,224 cu/ft of space.

I'm sure your house is a heat pump, much cheaper to operate than a direct heat element system. I suppose you could install a rather large heat pump system, but they work very slowly (air coming out is just so so warm), so it really would need to run all the time or the place would cold soak and a heat pump would never be able to heat it. Cannot imagine what a heat pump that size would cost.

Ideally a fuel heater, NG, propane, used oil, fuel oil, something like that is going to get you more bang for the buck the way you want to use it.

If you consider a used oil heater, be prepared to start begging every friend you know to get oil, but be hardnosed and insist they use a clean drain pan and funnel it into clean containers and keep them inside till you get the oil. One of the worst offenders, container wise is the 5 gal bucket or metal can, either with the pull out plastic spout and screw off cap. The spouts crack and if the container sits outside water seeps thru the cracks in the plastic. I'm real big on keeping it inside till they give it to me. You can probably get away with the smallest used/waste oil heater made, something like 140,000 btu, and expect to burn about 1 gallon per hour of operation. Tight building and good system, it will run and heat up and then cycle on and off, so it won't run for a full 48 hrs by any means.

Just don't fall for elcheapo prices. Be sure to factor in the class A chimney/flue pipe/automatic damper system (upwards of $1500), and the fuel tank/pump. Price a complete package. If they don't have a complete package, add up the needed stuff yourself.

I will be heating the shop on the weekends. I had no idea it was going to eat that much power. This is more of a pipe dream than i thought. Im going to go shopping for a waste oil furnace. Im ok with one time bills, but i cant stand a sinking ship that is hemorrhaging money. Thanks guys.

St. Louis Craigslist................

We now have a "few" different size used Clean Burn waste oil heaters "fully reconditioned"!
All heaters come with all the components included with a new heater and have a ONE YEAR WARRANTY!
This season we even have "interest free" financing for qualified buyers!

ALL NEW HEATERS ARE ON ON SALE TOO!!! :)

Call Bob with your shop dimensions today.
DSI Recycling Systems, Inc.
314-239-0366
www.dsirecycling.com
Clean Burn Distributors

Charles
 
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jvitez

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Straight electric heat is still doable if you insulate the snot out of the pole barn. Do some searching on "low energy house." The main issues are air sealing and insulation. Passive solar is also a huge benefit.

You're going to pay one way or another: capital cost vs operating cost. Electric heat can be expensive but electric heaters are quite cheap. Insulation is expensive but reduces the heating bill. There's nothing you can go about the volume of air needed to be heated, nor opening and closing the garage door. But you can insulate and air seal really really well.

Check out electric radiant heaters: all the benefits of radiant heat (warms objects and you, not the air directly and therefore you're comfy with lower temps so it saves energy) and the clean safety of electric.

http://www.ouellet.com/fd.aspx?h=/documents/products/catalog_21_en.pdf
 
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