Upgrading Service

[Jagmandave]

On the horns of a dilemma.....

I need to add one more 30 amp 220V circuit for my garage, I have a 100 amp main service as this house was built in the mid 60's. My panel is full, I have no place to add the extra breaker I need. The cheapest way to fix this would probably be a new panel of the same brand I have now with more spaces, then I'd only need to add the extra breaker or two - but I doubt that's even possible as I haven't found anyone selling this brand online anywhere - ITE. I can still buy breakers for it tho.....

We don't have a capacity problem, IOW we're not running a huge load at any given time, so I'm not worried about overheating the panel or running near capacity. All of our major appliances are gas, the only time we use much load is in the summer with the A/C going, even then I doubt we're ever at even half capacity.

So, choices - I can buy a new 100 amp panel with more spaces, but that means buying all new breakers as well as a panel, as the old panel is either not made anymore or not readily available. Advantage here is I don't need to pull a permit to change it out and I can add the extra circuit I need.

or....

Since I'm changing the panel completely anyway, upgrade to a 200 amp service while I'm at it. Downside, need a permit as well as buying the new panel and all the new breakers.

Cost isn't much higher to go to a 200 amp service if I have to buy new panels and breakers anyway, but adding the permit and having to have the electrical company come out and change the wiring to the house ( I suppose?), would I also need a new meter base I wonder?

My first inclination is just to go with the uprated service, but I'm also trying to spend as little as possible since I'm now retired and on fixed and very small income.

It is also possible to drop a subpanel, but by the time I buy it and those breakers I'm not sure I'd be saving anything, and again I think I'd wind up pulling a permit for that too.

One last thought, a thorough investigation of the current panel reveals that I have a 30 amp 220V circuit that goes to the kitchen for the range - we have a gas range so this is not being used and I could use it for this purpose. The only way I could think this might be an issue is with a future owner not being able to install an electric range, I also already appropriated the electric dryer breaker so there's not one of those for the laundry room either.

Maybe I should just use what I have and let the future buyer worry about his needs?

Suggestions?

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you can buy breakers, see if you can buy a pair of 15A tandem breakers. Tandems are 2 breakers that physically only take one slot.

I am in the process of remodeling my daughter's kitchen. Older Square D 100A load center. No slots. Install 2 tandem 15A breakers on existing circuits. This gives me 2 empty slots for 2 new, tandem 20A (4 circuits).

 

[Speedy Petey]

Hell, use the range breaker. Really, who cares about the future buyer. They are going to hit you for every upgrade they want anyway (with the support of their home inspector of course), so don't worry about it now.

 

[Jagmandave]

Thanks for the tip on the tandem breakers, since I was surprised to even be able to buy regular breakers for this box, I'll be doubly surprised if they have specialty breakers for it, but the electrical supply house that I used at my former employer is where I got them and I still have contacts there, so I can check into it......

speedypetey, that's exactly what I decided to do, but I might need to add something else in the future, it would be good to know that I can get breakers like this just in case.

Truth be told, I really need to uprate the panel, but since I'm on a very small fixed income these days, cost is a big factor.

 

[SeattleKent]

I need to add one more 30 amp 220V circuit for my garage

It is never just one more circuit. You'll get this 30 amp circuit in then find you need another 20 amp 110 volt circuit. Then you'll need a ...

Replace the panel. It will be cheaper and safer in the long run.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Your panel may or may not be able to legally accept tandem breakers. If the buss is "forked" where the breaker stabs on then those spots will accept tandems.

ITE is now Siemens. Still very popular and widely available.

 

[Jagmandave]

Good point Speedy, I would not be surprised to find this panel is not rated for them, being it was made/installed in the early 1960's....a lot of folks may not know that about the lugs and so on......

I think I'm going to go ahead with my plan and just use the 30A breaker already in the panel that's not being used anyway - that's the right size - all I need to do is remove the wires to the range and lay in new ones for the A/C unit.

That way I'm still using the panel the way it was originally set up, same load and so on.....should be safe to do that.

Kent, I agree with your thinking, it's a money issue right now, as expected. As long as I can use what I have and it's safe and in code, I'm good for now.

 

[Norcal]

If the house was built in the '60's, it may be a pre-CTL panel, they did not have the notched bus stabs, if all the info is still there it will show where or if twin breakers can be used, this will apply to pre 1968 panels. BTW, does the panel say on the label, "I-T-E Circuit Breaker Company, Walker Div."? If it is the panel type I am thinking of, it will not have notched bus stabs.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I think I'm going to go ahead with my plan and just use the 30A breaker already in the panel that's not being used anyway - that's the right size - all I need to do is remove the wires to the range and lay in new ones for the A/C unit.

That way I'm still using the panel the way it was originally set up, same load and so on.....should be safe to do that.

Absolutely !

Go for it.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Ref the pics below.

Top pic is tandem breakers for the Siemens panels. Two individual breakers in a single 1" wide housing.

The one on the left will fit only panels with the notched stabs, and usually the only positions with notches are the bottom several stabs. A 30 space, 40 circuit panel, for instance will have the bottom 5 stabs notched, so as to allow 10 tandem breakers to be installed, bringing the total CIRCUITS to 40.

The circuit breaker on the right is the exact same style of tandem breaker, but will fit a stab with no notches. What you do is take out four of your old breakers and install two of the tandems, and move all four of the circuits wires to the tandems, this frees up two spaces for a double pole breaker.

The next two pics show stabs with notches, and stabs without notches.

Charles

 

[Jagmandave]

Follow up.....

I decided to just use the breaker in the panel. I ran the wiring to the outside wall of my shop.....

and here's the reason why....

In our part of the world it not only gets cold, it gets hot and humid. I was looking for a way to heat my garage and cool it and I thought of those motel units, while looking for those I found this on Amazon for about $500 - my buddy has a prime account so free shipping too!

I decided to build it in and removed the lower sash and roughed in a frame, then insulated all the voids with pink, caulked all the edges and covered it in.

I had it running this afternoon and it really warms the garage nicely, come summer tho it will really do the job and make my shop usable on those hot, sticky summer days!

I still have to reglaze the windows above it, and put on a proper coat of paint but that will have to wait till it warms up a bit more!