Did I buy a real Record Vise or a cheap new China import?

[rhastings80]

I picked up this 4 inch Record vise this past weekend for $65.00.

I was excited when I got it but now I'm wondering if this is a real Record vise that was made in England and quality or if this is one of the transition or new ones that is made buy Irwin in China? It does say Sheffield England but doesn't say "Made In". Also from looking on the Irwin website my vise looks very much like the current ones they are selling and not like any of the the Records I have seen on this site.

Does anybody know if this is one of the older quality Records or a cheap one?

Thanks.

http://www.toolbank.com/p/REC3VS/?tk=IRW

http://www.irwin.co.uk/allproducts.php
(there site doesn't seem to be working right now)


<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0oDOTm4Fic_j_ryJx4yK2_JY3BeFkdtv2PAhWbCPzrg?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_gyA2MJjiLlg/TERWriyDoGI/AAAAAAAAAf4/AJ5cGolPf_s/s800/CIMG0013.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/mike.4324/Vise02?authkey=Gv1sRgCNLnubvTwpiSaQ&feat=embedwebsite">vise</a></td></tr></table>

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<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/LpAOHUbrKwXQ1777KXIje_JY3BeFkdtv2PAhWbCPzrg?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_gyA2MJjiLlg/TERWxK5Uj0I/AAAAAAAAAgU/ES_oym83xu0/s800/CIMG0019.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/mike.4324/Vise02?authkey=Gv1sRgCNLnubvTwpiSaQ&feat=embedwebsite">vise</a></td></tr></table>

 

[mrholeshot]

My moneys on the real deal, sweet!

 

[knotheads]

looks like areal record vise to me.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Nah, that's a cheap Chinese knockoff.

It's made in Sheffield England. That is a town in the upper west Hunan Province. It's exported thru Birmingham which is a suburb of Hong Kong........

Those sneaky guys put that on the vise to make you think it is from Great Briton but, like usual, their command of he Engrish language is not that great.....They forgot the "," between "Sheffield" and "England"

 

[arkangel06]

Read the big words on the side of the vise and you will have your awenser.

 

[MrMark]

Nah, that's a cheap Chinese knockoff.

It's made in Sheffield England. That is a town in the upper west Hunan Province. It's exported thru Birmingham which is a suburb of Hong Kong........

Those sneaky guys put that on the vise to make you think it is from Great Briton but, like usual, their command of he Engrish language is not that great.....They forgot the "," between "Sheffield" and "England"

Is that really a reliable method of determining COO nowadays? I have seen Porter Cable tools that have "made in China" in tiny print on the box, and "Porter Cable, Tennessee, USA" on the tool. Totally misleading, but done all the time today. They put the COO on the packaging and then put the name of the importer on the tool. It shouldn't be allowed, but it is very common.

 

[caper]

That's a real deal Record vise.You can pick out the Irwin ones by the color and texture of the paint.The shade of blue is slightly different and the finish isn't as smooth.I'd say it was buit just prior to the transition because it has slotted bolt holes which is what the Irwins use.

 

[Keep]

I have 3 Records, yours has the same shape but my markings are in different locations.

Of course the ones I have did not come with a swivel base, I had to buy one separate, so that may be the difference.

I have a No3, No4, No5. I am working on the whole family!

But I would bet yours is a real Record.

 

[Boiler]

It doesn't say "made in?" I say its a fake. If you want, I'll give you scrap price...

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

If you haven't figured out by now, I was yanking your chain. Yours appears to be the real deal but mine is a little older than yours. This is my WWII vintage Record:

 

[rhastings80]

Thanks everyone.

I will go with it's real then. Guess from reading here I don't always trust the COO.

The reason I wasn't sure is it looks very close to the Irwin here. I'm guessing mine was maybe one of the last ones made in the UK before the change to China/Taiwan/Irwin.

from:
http://www.irwin.co.uk/cdetail.php?...Fa%3E+&catCode=150>Vices+and+Accessories</a>+

Another strange thing is here is one that is Irwin but has the Sheffield sticker...

from:
http://www.irwin.co.uk/cdetail.php?...Fa%3E+&catCode=150>Vices+and+Accessories</a>+

 

[JayL]

IMO I have no doubt that the Vise OP posted is authentic English made New Old Stock Record.

Here are some Record Vise pics

5"

4"

 

[wishihadatalon]

So was this determined to be real? I picked up a vise that looks exactly like this today for $30. The only difference is that my "Record" marking and the Sheffield England markin are swapped. You can kinda see the pics here, I will try to get better ones later.
http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/tls/2224724287.html

 

[Jononon]

There may be fake Sheffield England vices, but I've never seen one. There certainly aren't real fake Records, if you see what I mean, the tooling was reworked when they offshored production.

The only slightly bad news is that the last of the Sheffield production is pretty variable in quality. They carried on using the tooling at Parkway long after it was worn out. A lot of them are fine, but I wouldn't spend a fortune on a NOS Ebay example.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

There may be fake Sheffield England vices, but I've never seen one. There certainly aren't real fake Records, if you see what I mean, the tooling was reworked when they offshored production.

The only slightly bad news is that the last of the Sheffield production is pretty variable in quality. They carried on using the tooling at Parkway long after it was worn out. A lot of them are fine, but I wouldn't spend a fortune on a NOS Ebay example.

So is there any production still going on here? I was under the impression that the big ones were still made here. I have no idea how old my No. 25 is, but it was made here and it's top quality.

 

[Jononon]

So is there any production still going on here?

No
Parkway closed several years ago, there's warehousing on the site but no production. MTL was operating from Parkway Works, but I believe they've since moved.

On a more positive note, not every Record company ended up as a brand stamped on the side of Chinese rubbish. Link.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Well that is a shame, i'm glad mine's a real one.

 

[Jononon]

Well that is a shame, i'm glad mine's a real one.

Mine too

Surprising number surprisingly cheap on Fleabay and all the spares are still available.

 

[spongerich]

They seem to be a bit of a well kept secret in the USA. I have a Record #5 and it's every bit as good as any of my American vises.

 

[REAL HOT SCHITT]

Hi from new zealand.
Yes sirree!, u do have a genuine "record"....the record tools vise division wend bust or near bust i think in 1990's sometime, so they broke down the foundering line and castings system and took it to china.
Not long after that the u.s "irwin" tool company purchased it or a share of that and name all vises "irwin-record" or vise versa.
U can tell by the difference in the paint color blue they use in current chinese made vises.

You can buy a brand new 6 inch mecanics vise here for $199.00 new zealand dollars as opposed to when the english vises....500 bucks.

I have a "record" quik release 6 inch english engineers vise... Which i think is the best vise made by record as u can deliver hammer blows both ways.
In which u cannot do with the mechanics vise as they are made for holding only.
The record steel vises are very rare but if u can get 1 u are made as they can take punishment aplenty.

 

[demographic]

Hi from new zealand.
Yes sirree!, u do have a genuine "record"....the record tools vise division wend bust or near bust i think in 1990's sometime, so they broke down the foundering line and castings system and took it to china.
Not long after that the u.s "irwin" tool company purchased it or a share of that and name all vises "irwin-record" or vise versa.
U can tell by the difference in the paint color blue they use in current chinese made vises.

You can buy a brand new 6 inch mecanics vise here for $199.00 new zealand dollars as opposed to when the english vises....500 bucks.

I have a "record" quik release 6 inch english engineers vise... Which i think is the best vise made by record as u can deliver hammer blows both ways.
In which u cannot do with the mechanics vise as they are made for holding only.
The record steel vises are very rare but if u can get 1 u are made as they can take punishment aplenty.

The metalworking ones with the quick release are made from Ductile Iron (spheroidal graphite) and as far as I know the ones without are made from cast iron.
Some old Record woodworking tools were made from Ductile Iron but I don't know if that carries through to the metalworking stuff so I'm guessing that my non quick release vices are just cast iron.

I have a Record number 6 and a Record number 74 auto vice.
Both in red (I know the 74s were red as all the ones I've seen for sale have been red so far) and the number 6 has a little plate on the side of it.
Both of them clearly state that they have been made in England but I've only taken a pic of it on the 74.

No idea why the 6 is in red as they were usually Record blue in colour.
Looks like its always been red though as I can't see blue under the red so after I clear the old paint off its going back to red.
The plate has a few numbers and a crown stamped on it.

This is the 6

and this is the 74 Auto Vice that I had a bit of a go at with a twisted wire wheel today, still needs to clear off some of the paint in the hard to reach parts before re-painting it again.

This is the part for bending bars round a radius as far as I can work out.

Oh, some of you may have noticed that I call them a "Vice" and not "Vise".

That's cos I'm English and you lot can't spell properly

 

[Catalyze]

In our country the "Vice Squad" would be quite different. 5 guys in Carhart bibs toting Athols, Morgans, etc on dolly trucks going down the street at 2 AM.......That's why we spell these things as Vises. It's to keep the anarchy to a minimum.
Craig (member of the Vise Squad)

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Remember, a VICE catches a Crook, while a VISE Squeezes what is clamped in it.

Just like a HANGER vs HANGAR. With an A it holds an Airplane, and with a E it holds picturEs, clothEs, Etc.

Charles

 

[demographic]

In our country the "Vice Squad" would be quite different. 5 guys in Carhart bibs toting Athols, Morgans, etc on dolly trucks going down the street at 2 AM.......That's why we spell these things as Vises. It's to keep the anarchy to a minimum.
Craig (member of the Vise Squad)

Ahh, we could do with a little anarchy every once in a while.

Remember, a VICE catches a Crook, while a VISE Squeezes what is clamped in it.

Just like a HANGER vs HANGAR. With an A it holds an Airplane, and with a E it holds picturEs, clothEs, Etc.

Charles

I'm guessing that there was something doing the job of a vice before you colonials had a United States so its just possible that Vice is the original spelling

Besides, mine actually says VICE on it.

Oh, and its colour instead of color, gudgeon pin instead of wrist pin, bonnet instead of hood, mudguard/wing instead of fender and petrol tap instead of petcock.

 

[Catalyze]

It does say Vice. I stand admonished and wiser...LOL
By the way....that is the loveliest lettered "vice" that I
have seen in a very long time.
Craig

 

[tool_scrounge]

I picked up this 4 inch Record vise this past weekend for $65.00.

I was excited when I got it but now I'm wondering if this is a real Record vise that was made in England and quality or if this is one of the transition or new ones that is made buy Irwin in China? It does say Sheffield England but doesn't say "Made In". Also from looking on the Irwin website my vise looks very much like the current ones they are selling and not like any of the the Records I have seen on this site.

Does anybody know if this is one of the older quality Records or a cheap one?

Thanks.

http://www.toolbank.com/p/REC3VS/?tk=IRW

http://www.irwin.co.uk/allproducts.php
(there site doesn't seem to be working right now)

I picked up a like-new 3VS recently. The original Record's are marked "Made in England" on the casting. The 3VS are marked "Shefield England" in the casting. I am not sure where the 3VS was made but I found the quality a bit lacking. There is only a single carriage bolt on the side connecting the swivel base to the vise. There is no center screw. Using the vise without the swivel base is not an option as the bottom of the vise was as-cast and not remotely flat.

I sold it for what I paid and was happy to break even.

 

[PCO6]

demographic - Those are niCe viCes. I have a No. 6 in "blue". I also have Nos. 3, 4 and 8. Your's appears to be a bit older than mine. I have never seen a red one nor one with a brass plate and that's pretty neat. I have also never seen a 74 and that's really neat!

 

[Youngster]

Hi All,

I have almost this exact vise as the gentlemen listed below, but mine says S03 instead of S05. There is no No# anything. Does anyone know what the "S" stands for? Steel vise? Also, This is called a Mechanics' vise with anvil on the irwin site, or is it an engineer's vise, or simply a workshop utility vise?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

IMO I have no doubt that the Vise OP posted is authentic English made New Old Stock Record.

Here are some Record Vise pics

5"

 

[TreePointer]

Has anyone determined the significance of the RED Record vise as opposed to the blue models?

 

[HandyManny]

Those look like some nice old vises from Record. Too bad such a company has to sell out and the new owner Irwin now has this stuff being made in China.

I guess I'd really like to know if the new vises branded as Irwin (Record or not) are really bad vises? Or is it just a preconcieved notion many people have that gives these new Chinese vises a bad perception?

Okay I will admit that there are a couple lines of these newer Chinese vises being made under various brand names (Irwin, Wilton, Bessey, etc) that are proven to be real junk, like that typical $20 4 1/2 inch bench vises being sold at Lowes and Home Depot and other places. Same vise just different brand. Seen pic here and also seen in real life a couple times where the rear fixed jaw busts off if the workpiece is clamped too hard. Pretty piss poor if you ask me. Pretty common think with that particular vise.

But what about the other more solid larger models being offered under the Irwin, Wilton, or Bessey brand name these days? Yeah all made in China and all appear to be made by the same maker. They seem like solid pieces of equipment to me. Don't own any new ones, but my young neighbor has a newer Irwin 6" Mechanics Vise he bought about three years ago that seems pretty damn tough and well built. I've helped him do lots of vehicle work on his cars and have used his vise a few times. It seems every bit a tough as my old 6" Wilton that I've had for decades. It also seems as good as the various vises I'd used in different shops in years past.

I guess I'm wondering what makes the newer larger Chinese made vises less quility than the older English or USA made versions? I'm sure the Chinese use vises in their line of work and in many of their industries, they seem to be an industrial giant. Would they use a less quality vise? Don't they also need good tools and equipment? Is the iron really that different? I guess it's a mute point debating such things, but thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[Mohawk Dave]

Old thread I know...But I think that is a China one. Here's the link for the maker, Jiangsu Swordfish Bench Vise Co., Ltd...the biggest vise maker in the world. You can see they make Records and also Irwins. And the Records do not say "Made in". Sorry, I was just researching for myself and found this thread.

http://jsjanyu.en.alibaba.com/

And here's the link for the Records they make. http://jsjanyu.en.alibaba.com/produ...England_bench_vise_1001_1_1002_3_1003_4_.html

 

[Rico.]

And here's the link for the Records they make. http://jsjanyu.en.alibaba.com/produ...England_bench_vise_1001_1_1002_3_1003_4_.html

Well at least they finally offer a choice of colours....

 

[Freeborn John]

Old thread I know...But I think that is a China one. Here's the link for the maker, Jiangsu Swordfish Bench Vise Co., Ltd...the biggest vise maker in the world. You can see they make Records and also Irwins. And the Records do not say "Made in". Sorry, I was just researching for myself and found this thread.

http://jsjanyu.en.alibaba.com/

And here's the link for the Records they make. http://jsjanyu.en.alibaba.com/produ...England_bench_vise_1001_1_1002_3_1003_4_.html

Well I'll be damned.

 

[tool_scrounge]

Old thread I know...But I think that is a China one. Here's the link for the maker, Jiangsu Swordfish Bench Vise Co., Ltd...the biggest vise maker in the world. You can see they make Records and also Irwins. And the Records do not say "Made in". Sorry, I was just researching for myself and found this thread.

http://jsjanyu.en.alibaba.com/

And here's the link for the Records they make. http://jsjanyu.en.alibaba.com/produ...England_bench_vise_1001_1_1002_3_1003_4_.html

Well that would correlate with the poor quality and cheapened design of the 3VS that I had as mentioned earlier in the thread. Realistically, changing castings is a pain and costs $$$. So why would you change the casting label from "MADE IN ENGLAND" to "SHEFIELD ENGLAND" unless you had a really good reason (like your production went to China).

 

[Mohawk Dave]

I'm sure the Chinese use vises in their line of work and in many of their industries, they seem to be an industrial giant. Would they use a less quality vise? Don't they also need good tools and equipment?

This is what I keep wondering. Do China factories break their own vises weekly? Surely that's not acceptable.

 

[jacked_72]

Now I have to check out my every day vise when I get home. I'm certain it says "Sheffield England" on it somewhere. I bought it at Lowe's about 15 or so years ago. Its only 3-1/2" jaws, though.

 

[Engineer61]

The difference is in the quality of the casting - how smooth the unfinished surfaces are, how well the castings are machined (what tolerances are acceptable) and what quality of metal is used. Ductile cast iron requires a multiple step heat-treatment to form correctly and a certain percentage of carbon in the iron. Much easier and cheaper to skip this and use whatever mostly iron scrap that can be found and melted to make your "cast iron". If it ends up very brittle and weak, well that's why it's a cheap vise.

 

[demographic]

The difference is in the quality of the casting - how smooth the unfinished surfaces are, how well the castings are machined (what tolerances are acceptable) and what quality of metal is used. Ductile cast iron requires a multiple step heat-treatment to form correctly and a certain percentage of carbon in the iron. Much easier and cheaper to skip this and use whatever mostly iron scrap that can be found and melted to make your "cast iron". If it ends up very brittle and weak, well that's why it's a cheap vise.

Not all of the British made Record were ductile iron anyway, some were cast iron.

The ones without the quick release were usually cast iron and the ones with the quick release were usually ductile iron or cast steel.

I have compiled quite a lot of photos of British made vice's over the last year or so and it seems to me that there's been quite a lot of cross fertilisation between Parkinsons who made Parkinsons and Samsonia, Alfred Herberts who made Fortis and Ajax vices and Record who made Record vices. Oh, Woden and Dawn seem to have been in the mix also.

There are as far as I can see identical vice's produced by various companies and I think that Record copied or possibly bought them out.
There is also the second world war to take into account and I know various places got absolutely hammered by the bombing (Coventry being one and thats the manufacturing base for Alfred Herberts) and I think some other companies were allowed to make identical products under license. Not quite got to the bottom of all that to be honest.
I'll post a load of pictures on this and the GJ vice thread when I've sorted them all out.

Record are by no means the only manufacturers of quality vices in this country.

 

[bobemmerich]

This is what I keep wondering. Do China factories break their own vises weekly? Surely that's not acceptable.

Well, we all must be doing something, 'cause the Chinese company making the stuff now is making $10-50 million selling them! Maybe they are their own best customer...

 

[justatool]

Hi. I was wondering if any one can tell me whether this is made in UK or China.
It has Sheffield England on the side.

The ad says made in England. I have been in communication with the seller and this was his reply

"We bought these in 4.4.05 - So is old clearance stock but still good quality."

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221452035096&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:AU:1123