Tying neutrals together in a box

[40cpe]

I have seven 12/2 w/ground wires in a 4" box. I can't get all the neutrals under one wire nut. Is it OK to tie them in two groups with a jumper between them? They are three runs back to the panel ( both phases), three switch legs, and a short extension to a nearby box with a GFI receptacle feeding an outside light. Each of the 3 switch legs feeds four 8 ft T8 fixtures, so there will be less than 15 amps flowing through the whole shebang.

What would the professionals do?

 

[rockwithjason]

tie the neutrals together for the corresponding circuit. if you have three circuits you should have at least two separate neutrals tied together in the box. if you have three home runs to the panel you need three groups of neutrals in the box. you don't tie all of the neutrals together and run one home.

 

[tfi racing]

What would the professionals do?

Likely not run all those circuits to one box,sounds kinda odd.But since you have,do as Jason suggested,keep each circuits identified conductors(not actually a neutral here)to themselves.

 

[40cpe]

Likely not run all those circuits to one box,sounds kinda odd.But since you have,do as Jason suggested,keep each circuits identified conductors(not actually a neutral here)to themselves.

My objective was to put all the switches on separate circuits and in the same box. I shot myself in the foot. Keeping the home run married to the respective switch leg sounds good. Why didn't I think of that?

Thanks to you both.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Thats a lot of wires in one 4x4 box, even if it happens to be a deep (2-1/8" box). Did you do fill calculations?

Charles

 

[Gooch]

Box is overfilled, you need an extension on the box, or a bigger box, 4-11/16 sq deep box would be large enough.

a 4 sq. deep is good for 30.3 cu. in.

7- 12/2 romex wires require a minimum cu. in. of 33.75.

 

[Nostraquedeo]

Thats a lot of wires in one 4x4 box, even if it happens to be a deep (2-1/8" box). Did you do fill calculations?

Charles

Guy ask how to tie some neutrals together and your wondering if he did fill calcs.

 

[matt151617]

Guy ask how to tie some neutrals together and your wondering if he did fill calcs.

What's wrong with that? Fill calcs are important. Too many wires jammed in to a box can cause problems, especially when trying to stuff everything in... there's a risk of wires getting pulled loose.

 

[Falcon67]

He's saying that guys like us amateurs don't do fill calcs. If I bring 6 runs into a box, by God I'll make 'em fit. I do a "PITA" count - how much hassle is it going to be later if I have to get in here and work on this. If the hassle factor is high, better re-think.

 

[Highbeam]

I don't know about you guys but I always spend the extra 12 cents and buy the deepest possible box of the type that I need. Like a single outlet box I always buy the biggest 23 CI or whatever it is.

I see no drawbacks other than the extra 12 cents and when fitting the wires, it is much easier. Any problems with this practice?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

4x4x2.125=34 cu in

7 runs of Romex 12/2 w/grd is 14 wires plus one ground the way the code counts it.

15 x 2.25 (cu in per conductor) = 33.75 so the OP is within the fill limit, just don't add any clamps, devices, another wire, fixture hickeys, nothing, to the box. This is assuming no internal clamps.

Now, if the OP used a shallow 4x4 box, that is only 21 cu in, and he is way over full. What I did, mostly to get more working room, was to use a 4x4 extension box on top of the boxes I used, then a flat cover. Just a lot easier than trying to fold everything down into the box and force the cover on.

I agree, the neutrals need to be separated by circuit just as the hots are, no different. If you have one hot in and two hots out wire nutted together, than the accompanying neutral gets the same treatement. YOU DO NOT tie all of the neutrals together.

Charles

 

[Speedy Petey]

I have seven 12/2 w/ground wires in a 4" box. I can't get all the neutrals under one wire nut. Is it OK to tie them in two groups with a jumper between them?

IF they are all on the same circuit yes, but yours are not.

They are three runs back to the panel ( both phases), three switch legs, and a short extension to a nearby box with a GFI receptacle feeding an outside light.

So then absolutely NO, you cannot tie all theneutrals together.

Each of the 3 switch legs feeds four 8 ft T8 fixtures, so there will be less than 15 amps flowing through the whole shebang.

Then WHY did you run two 20A circuits for that???

What would the professionals do?

NOT bring all those wires into a 4' sq box. There was absolutely no reason for it.
Each HR should have gone right to the switch box. And the GFI home run should have run right to the GFI.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Guy ask how to tie some neutrals together and your wondering if he did fill calcs.

Yes, and good thing that he did. Sometimes blindly answering an OP's question is the worst thing one can do. Sometimes this does more damage than good.
WHY does this bother you?

 

[Gooch]

4x4x2.125=34 cu in

7 runs of Romex 12/2 w/grd is 14 wires plus one ground the way the code counts it.

15 x 2.25 (cu in per conductor) = 33.75 so the OP is within the fill limit, just don't add any clamps, devices, another wire, fixture hickeys, nothing, to the box. This is assuming no internal clamps.

Charles

NEC only allows 30.3cu. in. for a 4sq deep box.

The box dimensions are OD and usually there is a raised spot for a ground screw.

 

[kossuth]

I have seven 12/2 w/ground wires in a 4" box. I can't get all the neutrals under one wire nut. Is it OK to tie them in two groups with a jumper between them? They are three runs back to the panel ( both phases), three switch legs, and a short extension to a nearby box with a GFI receptacle feeding an outside light. Each of the 3 switch legs feeds four 8 ft T8 fixtures, so there will be less than 15 amps flowing through the whole shebang.

What would the professionals do?

What???? Forget what you are doing. If you are using just a simple 2 way switch you have two ways to do this. Run the wire from the panel to the fixture first and then run 12/3 or 14/3 to the switchbox via a switch loop (NOTE: Per the 2011 code unless you have top plate access you have to run a neutral wire into the light box too unless your local code has an ammedment for it so check you might be able to use 12/2 or 14/2 and be AOK with the inspector).

The other way to do it is to run the power to the light switch and then bridge off from there and run it like this

Personally I like using loops because it seems to use less wire, but either way is perfectly fine TBH.

 

[Falcon67]

Side Note - If you ever hope to use one of the fancy occupancy sensors on a light circuit, better bring the power into the switch box before going to the fixture. Pretty much all of them require a real neutral in the box. I mention this because for the three fixture groups controlled near my man door, I did not do this. I just dropped the switch legs from the attic box because the power run was also going to the other end of the building. So.....dammit

 

[kossuth]

Side Note - If you ever hope to use one of the fancy occupancy sensors on a light circuit, better bring the power into the switch box before going to the fixture. Pretty much all of them require a real neutral in the box. I mention this because for the three fixture groups controlled near my man door, I did not do this. I just dropped the switch legs from the attic box because the power run was also going to the other end of the building. So.....dammit

Not to hijack but I suspect this is one of the reasons they expect you to run a 12/3 or 14/3 to the switch box now even if you are only using it for a switch loop. They pretty much just want you to wire nut that neutral conductor so it's there "just in case". I don't agree with that mentality but what they hay do I know.

 

[Nostraquedeo]

Yes, and good thing that he did. Sometimes blindly answering an OP's question is the worst thing one can do. Sometimes this does more damage than good.
WHY does this bother you?

It's called sarcasm Speedy, they sell it at Walmart in the ice cream isle!

 

[Speedy Petey]

It's called sarcasm Speedy, they sell it at Walmart in the ice cream isle!

A) If that was sarcasm you may want to go back wally world and get some for yourself. I did NOT read it that way. Sorry.

B) I won't set foot in white trash world walmart.

 

[40cpe]

I just want to come back a say "Thanks" for the advice on the connections and the extension for the box. All are connected, the box extension installed, and everything is working fine.

Thanks again.

Gene