Should I buy an old run-down Garage?

[woodrail]

I recently didn't take advantage of an ideal small parcel of land with a 10,000 multi--use building in the country. The finances just were not right.

I currently have 3 Airstream travel trailers along with 3 trucks and a hobie cat and a bunch of other stuff I need to keep. I guess I should also throw in the 15 pinball machines in storage.......

Long story short, I need space! Ideally, an auxiliary shop would be great, but my home shop is set up quite nicely and I use it a lot.

Every day I drive by a place every day on my way to work. I have often wondered how cool I could set it up.

Bear in mind, being in the rust belt, buildings like this are cheap. Location poses a couple of issues. It is in a higher than normal crime area, lower income spot. It is next to a brand new school, so that is a plus. It sits on a major road, that is good for visibility, but I think taxes are higher because of that.

The building needs work. Nothing I can't do, but initial securing it and getting it weather tight will take time and money. It needs doors and windows and roof work.

I talked to an appraiser knowledgeable with it and asked if 30k would get it, his reply would be only if there was a 20k car in it. The building is currently being used a indoor storage for a decorative landscape firm. Lots of heavy bulky stuff that isn't valuable individually. (Think patio locks and landscape timbers)

Now the "cool" part. The building was built in 1950 as an Oldsmobile dealership. It has a neat storefront that hopefully is still in place behind the wood. The structure has one single large garage door and office space. It is about 6,000 s.f. total.

Here are some exterior images:

An original photo:

Given the current damage, and the rumor current renter is not paying, I could probably get the place cheap. But, the liability is looming!

I've got some friends with some nice collector cars that could go in the showroom and open it back up to the street. I'm sure the city leaderswould prefer this over the current look. It could be one really fun "party room"!

So, I'd love an opinion or advice from anyone thats "been there"!

 

[stingry]

Haven't "been there" myself but have a friend who has. Similar situation as yours, he bought an old Packard dealership in a not-so-nice part of town. Bought it reasonable "cheap!". Put a lot of money, time and labor into it but ended up with a fantastic "car guy" place to store and display his vintage cars and automotive memorabilia. Actually was recognized by the city and state for helping to revitalize the area. He installed several security devices, cameras and an alarm system. Has had no problems with vandalism or theft.

I'd say go for it, too many of these old historic buildings are falling into disrepair and being torn dowm.

Cheers
Steve

 

[IndyGarage]

I knew a guy who bought a building fairly similar to that. He used it to store several old cars and as a restoration shop for his projects. I lost track of him a few years back so I don't know if he still has it or not. I think he made it work, but it was apparent that it was a challenge at times. I know he got broken into once or twice.

I think your idea of reopening the showroom area is optimistic. The "higher crime" statement is key. You won't be able to leave any doors open - ever. You won't be able to park anything of value outside overnight unless it is locked up tight. You might not even feel comfortable working there at night after dark.

You don't want anyone to know what is inside your building. If it's something of value, somebody is going to want to take it.

The other problem I see with a building like that is heating and cooling. If you just want to store things in it that's one thing, but heating and cooling something that old and that size might be costly.

 

[IndyGarage]

One more thing. I don't know how far away this is from your house, but that can be a challenge too. My shop is about 5 miles from my house. I make it work, but there are two problems. First, it's hard to get there sometimes. With work and day to day family stuff, I find myself over there from 11pm to 3 am most of the time.

Second, it seems I always have stuff in the wrong place. 1/2 my tools are there, 1/2 at home. Over time I've pretty much duplicated everything, but that's expensive in itself.

 

[D.J.]

Looks to have a bowstring roof on it. Be sure to check out the roof structure as these are a fire departments worst nightmare. If it is constructed out of metal or wood. Good luck on your decision, and I would have to agree with the poster above about you not wanting to let anyone know what is inside for security reasons.

 

[Falcon67]

>but I think taxes are higher because of that.
If you buy it for $5, you can beat the tax man over the head with the deed because that IS what it's worth. My deceased FILs building was like that - on the tax rolls for like $20K. After he passed, we filed for a hardship re-appraisal with the tax authority and got it down to about $3000 so the estate didn't have to default on some big tax bill. He basically had zip except for the building.

I'd look it over hard, and get the fire mashal to do an inspection - then you'll know what you are up against as far as getting from now to actual use.

 

[fringeofinsanity]

If the taxes are affordable, and the deal is right, I'd go for it. Like you I have been on the hunt for such an opportunity, but haven't been able to find one yet, buy or rent, that makes sense when I crunch the numbers. Such opportunities are few and far between in my area. Good luck

 

[kbs2244]

Find a good Real Estate lawyer.
Does Ohio have something called a TID (Tax Incentive Districts)?
You can get Real Estate discounts, even complete avoidance, for being the first to put some money into restoring a neighborhood. But there are lots of politics involved.


If so, then…
Tear off the existing tar paper roof and replace with white membrane and skylights.
Brick up those huge windows.
Do some investigating into a “door inside a door” type thing for that big hole in the end.
Lots of outside lights on all four sides.
Check that power drop. It may be a 3 phase.
If so, good for you. But don’t talk about it. Someone might think it increases the value.
Obvious security gates inside upgraded doors so anyone passing buy knows it will be a project to break in.
Think twice about “showing off” any collectables. That is just a temptation.
The bad guys may know it will be kind of hard to fence a show quality 1930 Cadillac, They may reason there will be tools close by one.

Think about home to shop travel time.

 

[venom50svt]

I always thought about having a place to work[dabble.. I thought an old fire station would be cool....There are no old type car dealership buildings in my area..
The building you have could be interesting, with the input from others it could give you ideas,, I would talk/deal with the city for a tax break for about 10yrs.. you are going to upgrade the place and could spark more people to get interested---good luck

 

[regguy1]

Be very careful about old underground oil tanks or any other possible things that could result in expensive clean up costs. City will want an occupancy permit and could look for that stuff..?

 

[Taurus]

Right! My last employer had this problem on a site in White Plains/NY. Was a long and costly journey ...

 

[Zeke]

Be very careful about old underground oil tanks or any other possible things that could result in expensive clean up costs. City will want an occupancy permit and could look for that stuff..?

Good call. Nothing like waking up the sleeping dogs.

 

[sparky7]

you can buy a building like that for 10,000 dollars? up here in MA i feel like that would be an easy 100k

 

[ford33]

If the neighborhood is bad then it's going to be tough working there alone at night. You will not feel safe. Talk to the local cops and get their opinion.

If it's not that bad a neighborhood then do the inspections so you know what you are getting into and go for it. The underground tank issue happens many times in commercial real estate transactions. There are ways to resolve this and still make it a good deal.

The city has a vested interested in getting a building occupied and on the tax roles. You should work with the mayor's office, fire department, building inspectors and engineers. My cousin is opening a very small (2 person) commerical bakery in an old empty building near me. They say the local village officers are doing everything possible to get them in as fast as possible.

What about partitioning the building and getting a tenant to offset your costs. You can also install a series of secure indoor storage units and provide an electronic access system to the building so you don't have to be there.

This could work out well.

 

[D rock]

Make sure it is not in a historic district or not on any kind of historic registry. They can and will be a PITA to deal with. This can add thousands to the reno costs.

There was a guy here that bought a Historical hotel (1.9 mil) that has not turned a profit since the 1920's. He was going to revitalize it and replace all the wood windows (+/-200 bucks) with high efficiency vinyl (+/-100 bucks)(all 200). He started with one on the 7th story. The city and hysterical society fined him 100 bucks a day (6 months to a year) until he replaced the window. He later went to court filed bankruptcy and the hotel was later sold at auction.

Long story short, just be careful and make sure to do your homework.

 

[regguy1]

Reasearch on UG tanks in Ohio
About UG Tanks in Ohio:
http://www.com.ohio.gov/fire/bustmain.aspx

Search your location here: (just put in city zip code in search and all tanks on record will show up)
https://apps.com.ohio.gov/fire/OTTER


FYI: 119 tanks show up for Lorain, OH 44052

 

[ford33]

Here's another idea.

How about a committing to a one year lease to provide you an opportunity to evaluate the building and your ideas for the building before committing $10k. The lease would have a one year purchase option with a fixed price. If things work out as planned in one year you buy the building. If not, you walk away without spending a bundle and committing to years of property taxes and high commercial real estate selling fees.

 

[kwb]

If I was to do something like this ... what I would do is buy, create a street front space that could be rented out.

The goal being that there is a business there and in operation for a lot of hours of the week. Not really any matter of what it is, might be a nail shop, an office for somebody that just needs office, really any sort of small business can fit the bill.

Get a few bucks a month for the annoyance of being a landlord you get the security of a set of eyes on site most days, and there are some tax advantages you can use to further defray costs of ownership.

Lock up the remaining space like a vault (and keep the tenant's eyes out of there too) and play to your hearts is content.

 

[ZRX61]

Looks about right for an average sized garage

 

[vette66bob]

Looks to have a bowstring roof on it. Be sure to check out the roof structure as these are a fire departments worst nightmare. If it is constructed out of metal or wood. Good luck on your decision, and I would have to agree with the poster above about you not wanting to let anyone know what is inside for security reasons.

There was a Ford dealership in Hackensack, NJ with a Wood-truss roof or "bowstring type roof” very much the same as the unit you are looking at. It caught fire and trapped 5 firemen inside, they all died. This tragedy lead to every building of this type in the US to post a universal sign outside in plain sight, warning all fire-fighters of the construction.
http://my.firefighternation.com/profiles/blogs/hackensack-tradegy-a-failure

 

[brownbagg]

looks like a money pit to me, with the maintance, taxes, vandelism, insurance, you be just ******* away money and then the local thug will take it all away from you

 

[woodrail]

Thank you all for the great advice and suggestions. I'll be further investigating each idea.

Redguy1, thank you for the link! The site is in fact on the list! It shows 1 petroleum tank. Time to get some professional advice.

Many factors come into play on this property including TIF districts(tax exemptions), improvement grants, historical cooperation, and obvious fire safety issues. I do believe the trusses are steel though.

The good news is that I have good connections for just about all these issues. The bad news is the purchase price is probably the smallest expense.

Again, do note that my primary need is storage, although I'm sure restoration work would occur also. This garage is about halfway between my office and home, 5 minutes to either. I do like the idea of a tenant in the front part. We have a building owner down the street that has offered free rent for anyone wanting to open a coffee shop. People actual wanted to be paid to open their business!

 

[NUTTSGT]

I fit has one tank listed, that might be the reason for the low price. If it is found to have leaked, there will be alot of dirt that needs to be dug, hauled to a sanitary landfill and replaced.

Add in possible roof work, you could have asmall fortune in that alone.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Be very careful about old underground oil tanks or any other possible things that could result in expensive clean up costs. City will want an occupancy permit and could look for that stuff..?

Yeah..I was thinking that angle too.

VERY BIG LIABILITY ISSUE.

And the current owner is always the first one to be stuck with the bill.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Thank you all for the great advice and suggestions. I'll be further investigating each idea.

Redguy1, thank you for the link! The site is in fact on the list! It shows 1 petroleum tank. Time to get some professional advice.

Many factors come into play on this property including TIF districts(tax exemptions), improvement grants, historical cooperation, and obvious fire safety issues. I do believe the trusses are steel though.

The good news is that I have good connections for just about all these issues. The bad news is the purchase price is probably the smallest expense.

Again, do note that my primary need is storage, although I'm sure restoration work would occur also. This garage is about halfway between my office and home, 5 minutes to either. I do like the idea of a tenant in the front part. We have a building owner down the street that has offered free rent for anyone wanting to open a coffee shop. People actual wanted to be paid to open their business!

That one tank can result in hundreds of thousands of dollars of liability..maybe millions.

I have seen it happen.

As for having people paid to open a business..it tells you how desperate the business is.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

I fit has one tank listed, that might be the reason for the low price. If it is found to have leaked, there will be alot of dirt that needs to be dug, hauled to a sanitary landfill and replaced.

Add in possible roof work, you could have asmall fortune in that alone.

And lawsuits waiting in the wings....waiting for deep pockets to show up.

Any contaminated soil would have to be trucked by certified companies to certified dumps

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Thank you all for the great advice and suggestions. I'll be further investigating each idea.

Redguy1, thank you for the link! The site is in fact on the list! It shows 1 petroleum tank. Time to get some professional advice.

For me that would be the end of it.

The State KNOWS the tank is there...and all costs would come out of the wallet of who buys the property

 

[woodrail]

.... unless removal costs and cleanup are negotiated as terms of purchase!

For all we know right now, this could be a 1000 gallon tank under the foundation filled with used motor oil leaking into the storm sewer, or an old concrete filled tank that hasn't been used for 40 years and is considered dormant. Pure speculation either way! Like I said, professional advice time.

 

[samthedog]

There was a Ford dealership in Hackensack, NJ with a Wood-truss roof or "bowstring type roof” very much the same as the unit you are looking at. It caught fire and trapped 5 firemen inside, they all died. This tragedy lead to every building of this type in the US to post a universal sign outside in plain sight, warning all fire-fighters of the construction.
http://my.firefighternation.com/profiles/blogs/hackensack-tradegy-a-failure

I read the link and as an ex-firefighter myself, I think poor training and leadership were the main culprits. If there is no life at risk and the fire is well alight, then it is defined as a "carpark", meaning let it burn.

Guys get caught up in the moment and run in without thinking. Their officer or chief should have pulled them back.

I don't think the roof should be a deal breaker unless it's leaking and needs replacing. Just make sure your smart about chemical storage, electrical systems and welding.

Paul.

 

[Kevin C]

.... unless removal costs and cleanup are negotiated as terms of purchase!

For all we know right now, this could be a 1000 gallon tank under the foundation filled with used motor oil leaking into the storm sewer, or an old concrete filled tank that hasn't been used for 40 years and is considered dormant. Pure speculation either way! Like I said, professional advice time.

Or solvent dumped into the ground. I worked at a business that bought the building it was in and found out later that hundreds of gallons of "safety solvent" had been dumped into the ground and it was moving towards the aquifer for a wet land that was about a mile away.

Giant legal headache. Just be careful when buying any used industrial land.

 

[kbs2244]

For the firemen on board.
On the roof truss design vs. fire issue.

I was once told that heavy timber roof trusses were safer than steel in a fire situation.
The argument was that they may char on the outside but the fire move on ant the interior wood would be strong enough to hold up the roof.
On the other hand, the steel would get to melting temp and warp or just fail.

Is there any update on this idea?

BTW
The underground tank issue is a definite deal killer.
If everything else makes you want to go for it look into a long term lease.
Done right it will protect you from ownership clean up issues.
Again a real good real estate lawyer.

 

[HotrodHR]

One more thing. I don't know how far away this is from your house, but that can be a challenge too. My shop is about 5 miles from my house. I make it work, but there are two problems. First, it's hard to get there sometimes. With work and day to day family stuff, I find myself over there from 11pm to 3 am most of the time.

Second, it seems I always have stuff in the wrong place. 1/2 my tools are there, 1/2 at home. Over time I've pretty much duplicated everything, but that's expensive in itself.

I can concur with the convenience factor... not to mention paying rent (as I did for 10plus years). 10 miles one way in my case got real old. So we downsized and built a new house with 3 car attached and a 24' x 24' x 12' shop. Mortgage rates are cheap and I'm paying for my own place now. Bonus is that I no longer have an obnoxious landlord!

 

[samthedog]

For the firemen on board.
On the roof truss design vs. fire issue.

I was once told that heavy timber roof trusses were safer than steel in a fire situation.
The argument was that they may char on the outside but the fire move on ant the interior wood would be strong enough to hold up the roof.
On the other hand, the steel would get to melting temp and warp or just fail.

Is there any update on this idea?

This depends. If the fire is that big that the trusses are at risk, then the contents will likely be a total loss. This kind of blaze will require re-building anyway so the trusses will likely be replaced regardless. Steel trusses will sag and wood will likely be damaged enough that you won't want to take a risk.

This then leaves the safety of the fire-crew. They should be trained enough to recognize the threat and not enter into or on a building that is well alight.

- A firefighter will risk his life in a calculated manner to save life. He may do so at at a lesser degree to save property. He will not risk his life at all to recover people or property already lost -

This endangers not only himself but his team who will lay their lives down to attempt to rescue one of their own. This is why I have commented that your choice of building should not be dictated what is or isn't safe for firefighters. I would think they can take of themselves.

Paul.

 

[CNGsaves]

Don't let the naysayers kill your idea of saving the building.

Only deal killer in my eyes would be IF solvents were at that site that got into ground water (think dry cleaning business, manufacturing site, etc) - - so make sure that contract puts any ground water cleanup onto the PRIOR owner.

For the oil tank issue, it can be cured. Expense of soil remediation caused by PRIOR owners needs PAID FOR by same PRIOR owners!! Thus, contract will have language that any remediation will be on nickel of PRIOR owner by way of performance bond, insurance policy, etc.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

 

[OldNeons]

I would do anything for an old round roof dealership building like that! Do your homework and go for it. Nothing great ever comes easy!

 

[NUTTSGT]

For me that would be the end of it.

The State KNOWS the tank is there...and all costs would come out of the wallet of who buys the property

Since the tank shows up on the registery, they know about it. There are many tanks all around that were never registered and the state knows nothing about.

 

[NUTTSGT]

For the firemen on board.
On the roof truss design vs. fire issue.

I was once told that heavy timber roof trusses were safer than steel in a fire situation.
The argument was that they may char on the outside but the fire move on ant the interior wood would be strong enough to hold up the roof.
On the other hand, the steel would get to melting temp and warp or just fail.

Is there any update on this idea?

It appears to be bowstring construction from the the outside. Bowstring does use some heavy timber but it differs from other heavy timber construction. Bowstring is all tied together, once one part fails, it all fails. The large rounded roof is a typical sign of bowstring construction, something we are taught in fire school, OTJ training and continuing education.

Heavy timbers like post & beam construction does generally last longer than modern 2x? in a fire as the fire takes awhile to penetrate the large lumber. In addition, modern trusses with plates can easily kill firefighters too. The generally rule for them is they fail 10 minutes after being exposed to fire.

 

[OldNeons]

I would not avoid this building due to bowstring construction! Most of the old round roof buildings I've seen are steel bowstring trusses, not wood anyway. Besides, are you planning to have a fire? One should always do what you can to avoid/prevent fire of course, but talk to steer clear of this particular type of construction are crazy IMO. As a courtesy alert your local fire department to type of construction and what you have in there.....

 

[CNGsaves]

Most new commercial buildings today (especially if they have people occupancy) will need WATER fire suppression system. Curious if older building would have to meet new code??

Price this into overall building cost as bulk of "meeting code" cost should again be on the prior owner.

Hope you get the building . . . . AND . . . find a giant OLDSMOBILE sign somewhere to put up on that building!! If street address was . . . 442 . . that would be way too awesome! Good luck.

 

[spoolgarage]

Hmmm 30k for the building?

My 4000 square foot lot with with a 2100sqft building cost me $200k . Am I missing something here?