Innova for misfire diagnosis

[JamesBill]

Car is throwing a cyl 5 misfire. needed to get it sorted and want to get a scanner. My head is swimming on all the things I don't know about this stuff so can someone just tell me if this model

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008RHBJ8K/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Will have the Mode 6 abilities to show me real time misfires before the code is thrown?

 

[FiendFX]

No this scanner doesn't have Mode 6 if you read the description. Not all vehicles will show misfire count in Mode 6. I believe only Ford vehicles offers that.

 

[MattPersman]

What kind of vehicle ? lots of techs here someone may be able to point you in the right direction on diag

 

[Subyroo651]

I would step up to the Innova 3160 if I were making that choice.
I returned mine in favor of an Autel MD802, but that's substantially higher in price.

I would also do a thread title search for scanner, OBD and some other things. There are plenty-o-threads.

 

[JamesBill]

No this scanner doesn't have Mode 6 if you read the description. Not all vehicles will show misfire count in Mode 6. I believe only Ford vehicles offers that.

Are you sure on that? I don't see it anywhere in the description so if you could point me to it, that would be helpful for me to find a tool that will work for me.

The 3130c is different than the old 3130.

What kind of vehicle ?

It is a 2003 Mercury with a 4.6 V8 2V.

I only own Ford vehicles and 2003 is the oldest. I currently have this misfire problem so if you guys could suggest a scanner or tell me if this one will be capable I would appreciate it.

 

[JamesBill]

I would step up to the Innova 3160 if I were making that choice.
I returned mine in favor of an Autel MD802, but that's substantially higher in price.

I would also do a thread title search for scanner, OBD and some other things. There are plenty-o-threads.

Yeah I have been reading threads and articles for a few hours just today and honestly a few months. My needs are so limited to strictly Fords and specifically now to what I need for a misfire diagnosis I thought someone could just point to a good one, or give me a definitive yes/no on the one I picked out.

The 3160 seems to be much older than the 3130c and I don't see any features it has over it beyond obd I which I don't need.

 

[bcradio]

I only own Ford vehicles

That's your problem right there!

Just messin

 

[JamesBill]

That's your problem right there!

Just messin

Well I bought them all new and have never even had a MIL before so......

 

[Stick]

Car is throwing a cyl 5 misfire. needed to get it sorted and want to get a scanner. My head is swimming on all the things I don't know about this stuff so can someone just tell me if this model will have the Mode 6 abilities to show me real time misfires before the code is thrown?

Just FYI, mode 6 isn't realtime data. It can also show false values if all the monitors haven't completed. Make sure your monitors have completed, go for a drive, then check mode 6 data without shutting the key off.

No this scanner doesn't have Mode 6 if you read the description. Not all vehicles will show misfire count in Mode 6. I believe only Ford vehicles offers that.

That's because mode 6 is for non continuous monitors (EVAP, catalyst status and the like), and adds misfires on vehicles that use the CAN system. Ford just put misfire in mode 6 because they didn't include it in the regular datastream, but had to provide misfire data as required by law. Nobody said the misfire data had to be easy to access and understand though...

 

[Haveblue]

these engines have problems with the cop (coil on plug) setup. start simple pull #5 coil and check for moisture on the boot, and condition of the boot, if it has gotten wet, than the plug likely has a "carbon track" that will ruin both the plug and boot. how did you get the p0105 code? do you have any other codes? you can switch coils or plugs to other cylinders to see if the miss moves. if a coil is bad, sometimes it will only show up under a load with engine at operating temperature. be very carefull removing and installing these plugs, and definately put a bit of anti-sieze on the threads.

 

[Stick]

be very carefull removing and installing these plugs, and definately put a bit of anti-sieze on the threads.

He said it's a 4.6 2V, which doesn't have problems like the 3V motors do. Pretty much any decent plug for those motors (I'd stick with Motorcraft OE plugs) is going to be a nickel coated plug, so no antisieize is needed. Those ignition systems are pretty picky, so stick with factory parts and methods for best results.

 

[Jeeper]

I would like to hear how Stick would approach this as he is a diagnostic expert.

For cheap advice, as a DIYer, before you get a fancier scanner, I'd do what others say. Move the coil and see if the misfire code follows. You can also move the spark plug around and see if it follows. My thought that is if the computer has a code for a specific cylinder, you can start with looking at COP, Spark plug, signal at wiring harness or fuel injector. Obviously it could be other things like a PCM, valve issues or other stuff, but work on the more basics.

 

[petty4243]

if you have a miss on cyl 5, swap the coil pack to a known good cylinder and see if miss moves with it.... if it does... get a coil... if not... put in a plug and try again.... that usualy takes care of 99% of them

 

[petty4243]

in event that does not cure miss and it sticks with cyl 5 all the time, then possible fuel injector.... or internal issue....

 

[DKerns]

I would pull the Coil and plug to inspect. 8 times out of ten, a coil is suspect on those. I am sure you know #5 is the front cyl. on the drivers side. Also verify there is no coolant leaking at the thermostat housing because if it is, it will find its way right back down into #5 plug well. If the plugs have not been changed, I would recommend doing them if it is at or close to 100K. I also would recommend doing the boots/springs on the remaining cyls.

 

[Haveblue]

"factory methods"

 

[wafrederick]

Coil is bad,The triton engines with the coil on plug ignition systems are well known for eating coils left and right.Have to watch it when removing the plugs in the 2 valve tritons,the spark plug threads might pull out of the head.Don't install the E3s,Been finding out the E3s screw up Ford computer systems.Been told of this once,4x4 system did not work in an expedition just because of spark plugs.Owner installed the E3s to increase gas mileage.

 

[Stick]

"factory methods"

Maybe you should check out my posting history to see where I'm coming from. I've spent the last several years doing primarily no code driveability diagnostics on a decent sized fleet of police vehicles. I've tried doing things several ways, and believe me when I say something doesn't work when its relating to ignition components on a ford modular motor. I've been there and done that when it comes to diagnostics on those engines.

On that particular motor, factory ignition components such as coils and motorcraft plugs work best. I've also seen the use of antisieze cause P0300 codes on those motors because the ignition system is so picky. As I said, it's not needed with a nickel coated plug. If something else worked better, I'd reccomend doing things differently.

 

[Stick]

Coil is bad,The triton engines with the coil on plug ignition systems are well known for eating coils left and right.

Yeah, it's always a coil...

Except when it's an injector.
Or a plug.
Or a valve issue.
Or low compression.
Or a manifold gasket that leaks coolant.
Or a head gasket.
Or.....

 

[sdguy55]

Stick! Stop your making far to many good ideas that make sense...

 

[kythri]

Coil is bad,The triton engines with the coil on plug ignition systems are well known for eating coils left and right.Have to watch it when removing the plugs in the 2 valve tritons,the spark plug threads might pull out of the head.Don't install the E3s,Been finding out the E3s screw up Ford computer systems.Been told of this once,4x4 system did not work in an expedition just because of spark plugs.Owner installed the E3s to increase gas mileage.

Did Mercury make a truck? I thought Triton was a truck engine marketing name.

Also, while 5.4L engines had that spark plug thread issue (and it wasn't "threads pulling out of the head"), I don't believe the 4.6L did/does.

 

[Haveblue]

I apologize if you were offended by my post stick. I meant it as a joke, not an insult. Im no expert, im sure you have knowledge In areas I dont.. we all see different design flaws, because we work in different environments.. I deal with everything from hybrids to 50s and 60s farm trucks. I regularly see even newer trucks that fall victim to packrats chewing up the wiring harnesses..makes diagnostics fun!! people seem to think that its easy to be an automotive tech..its not. we get no respect!!!

 

[petty4243]

triton is a motor series... includes 4.6 and 5.4 motors.... the 2v 5.4 is the one more known for stripped and blown out plugs.... which was only in the trucks.... as a whole, the 4.6 was used mostly in mustangs and the crown vic/ grand marquis line.... and had far less issues than either 2v or 3v 5.4 motors.... the issue in the 2v motor was related to a weak aluminum casting.... did not cover all production years of the 4.6.... most common issue years from late 90s through 01 and some 02 models....

 

[JamesBill]

Yeah, it's always a coil...

Except when it's an injector.
Or a plug.
Or a valve issue.
Or low compression.
Or a manifold gasket that leaks coolant.
Or a head gasket.
Or.....

I replaced the COP and plug right off the bat because of reading they are most likely the issue. The boot looked fine, and the MIL came back on.

I got the 3130c and it will get here tomorrow. No EGR or injector codes were ever with the misfire codes. I saw another thread where the older 3130 could find the individual misfires on a 5.4 2V so hopefully I can figure it out as well

I appreciate all of the posts from everyone so keep them coming.

 

[wafrederick]

The 4.6 and 5.4 have the problems with the threads pulling out of the head during spark plug removal.The Missfire codes,have fixed them replacing the coil and missfire gone.There was nothing wrong with the injector and inside the engine.Another cause is wrong brand spark plugs installed,see this with Bosch spark plugs a lot causing missfires.

 

[DKerns]

James, hit the basics first. Check for a good pulse at the inj. with a noid light. That is a small light used to test inj. power/pulse. Make sure you have a pulse (blinking). Also, check compression on that cyl. and compare it to a known good cyl.

 

[Haveblue]

usually its a spark problem that is easy to find, if you know what to look for.. injectors are not normally a failure with these engines..like ive said, start simple, and use common sense. the answer is right in front of you..find it!

 

[Stick]

The 4.6 and 5.4 have the problems with the threads pulling out of the head during spark plug removal.

Yeah we get it. Everybody has heard about the problems with the threads pulling out of the heads. The thing is, that was a problem with the Triton motors, primarily the 5.4's. He's talking about a 4.6 in a car. Similar motor (ford modular), but not the same problems.

 

[Stick]

I replaced the COP and plug right off the bat because of reading they are most likely the issue. The boot looked fine, and the MIL came back on.

Yeah, 80-90% of the time with these motors it's an ignition problem. It's the other times that can be real headscratchers. What kind of coil/plug did you put in the vehicle? I've never had problems with genuine Motorcraft parts, but some of the aftermarket stuff can be pretty iffy.

Honestly, when looking at mode 6 data like that, I wouldn't sweat a misfire count of 1 on a cylinder. Make sure your OBD monitors are complete and go for a flat rate test drive (20-30s of idle time, acceleration to cruise of 30-40mph, coast down to 20-30mph, WOT to 60-70mph, coast down to 30-40mph), and you'll have pretty much every driving scenario covered in less than five minutes.

Park the vehicle when you get back to the shop, leaving it running, and then check mode 6 data. The layout of that innova is a little odd, they seem to relabel $TID's and $CID's, so be aware of that.

 

[Stick]

usually its a spark problem that is easy to find, if you know what to look for.. injectors are not normally a failure with these engines..like ive said, start simple, and use common sense. the answer is right in front of you..find it!

I had a whole long reply typed up, but my phone seems to have eaten it. Here goes again...

Seeing how he's already replaced the #5 coil (or at least I hope it was, driver's side front hole by t-stat) and the plug, my next stop would be injectors. Normally you don't see an outright injector failure, so no code is thrown. Most of the failures I see are from shorted windings, which are pretty easy to spot with a lab scope waveform, or with a flow test with a scan tool like the IDS.

I know with the '01-'04 Crown Vice, there was a TSB about the fuel injector cover causing overheating at idle, and the #5 hole sits right by the alternator and t-stat in a pretty hot location. When I see bad injectors on a Crown Vic, the #5 is usually one of them because of heat.

Anyway, like you said, start simple. Make sure you're working on the right cylinder because I've seen more than one Chevy guy bitten by that. Check the basics, then move onto worrying about other possibilities.

 

[FiendFX]

How did you guys get to Mode 6 on the innova scanner?

 

[JamesBill]

Honestly, when looking at mode 6 data like that, I wouldn't sweat a misfire count of 1 on a cylinder. Make sure your OBD monitors are complete and go for a flat rate test drive (20-30s of idle time, acceleration to cruise of 30-40mph, coast down to 20-30mph, WOT to 60-70mph, coast down to 30-40mph), and you'll have pretty much every driving scenario covered in less than five minutes.

Park the vehicle when you get back to the shop, leaving it running, and then check mode 6 data. The layout of that innova is a little odd, they seem to relabel $TID's and $CID's, so be aware of that.

Sorry to confuse you but I grabbed that from a thread on another forum. It isn't the 3130c that I bought. His is just the 3130.
http://www.f150forum.com/f7/equus-3...code-scanner-live-record-playback-data-83957/


The 3130c I got came in a few hours ago and seems to be much improved over his. From his thread it looks like the $0c was the only information he could get. I hooked this one up to my Mustang and can get $80 $81 $0c $0b for individual cylinders and $80 $81 $82 $83 $84 for total engine and cats. They also corrected the TID and CID mistake you noticed.

If anyone is interested, on page 11 of this PDF it shows the Mode $06 Data for Fords and the meanings.

http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/obdsm307.pdf


I won't be around the car with the misfire until tomorrow so any comments would be much appreciated by anyone.

 

[JamesBill]

Here is some pictures of the scanner. This isn't the car that has the misfire, I just want to show you the difference in 3130 and 3130c


This is the 1st of 4 for individual cylinders