How do you run soft copper gas line through tight bends?

[Mr.N]

I'm looking for some help and ideas for installing a garage natural gas heater line. The gas run will be a home run all the way to the main "T" in the house. It's about a 45' run.
The kicker is a 90 degree bend in the middle, it's a 6' wall to a 12" ceiling.

So, any tips or trick to running soft copper line without kinking it?
Right now I'm just thinking of drilling a 2" hole and try to angel it.





Please no preaching about using black pipe. Here in Minnesota we run type L copper in our houses for gas. I bet if you can't hold your tongue your state doesn't use gas heat as much as our state. Yes, black pipe is good from some states, but not this tread.

.​

 

[PhantomEB]

There are 90s and 45s available at Home Depot etc, eh?

 

[Mr.N]

There are 90s and 45s available at Home Depot etc, eh?

Thanks for the input, but I think you are thinking of Rigid copper pipe. You can solder on many different elbows and such.

This a soft copper, a single piece of tube that is flared at each end.
You don't want to solder soft copper as it's Annealed.
So I have to run the whole length at the same time, thus my question.

 

[Dustball]

Do you have immediate access to the area of the bend? Perhaps set up a roller of some kind right were the bend has to occur- such as a winch fairlead or boat winch roller?

 

[plumbstupid]

Hmmm, I solder soft copper every day. Why use copper? Why not CSST?

 

[plumbstupid]

What size pipe are you running? Rigid and several other manufactures make make a spring coil you slide over the pipe to assist in bending it. They are not very expensive and work pretty good. I have used them in the past to bend soft copper in the slab. Back in the day you could find flared 45s and 90s. I don't know if they are still legal and I would not put them in a area where you could not access them in the future if they leaked.

 

[Mr.N]

Do you have immediate access to the area of the bend? Perhaps set up a roller of some kind right were the bend has to occur- such as a winch fairlead or boat winch roller?

I do have access, and could look at building a guide to prevent it from kinking... thanks for the idea. I do have an extra winch fairlead but like the idea of two pieces of wood sandwiched together to guide the copper.

Hmmm, I solder soft copper every day. Why use copper? Why not CSST?

I'm not sure CSST is allowed for a home owner to install. Plus it cost more, and all I have is this one bend I'm worried about for the copper.
Do you solder gas lines? I don't want to have to buy the silver solder, that stuff is expensive. Plus I have the flare tool and all my other lines are flared.

What size pipe are you running? Rigid and several other manufactures make make a spring coil you slide over the pipe to assist in bending it. They are not very expensive and work pretty good. I have used them in the past to bend soft copper in the slab. Back in the day you could find flared 45s and 90s. I don't know if they are still legal and I would not put them in a area where you could not access them in the future if they leaked.

Half inch pipe.
Something like this: http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/Spring-Tube-Benders/index.htm

The issue is I have to pull 20-25 feet through this angle. I am drilling holes through the ceiling studs and running down a wall. I would rather not cut a notch out of the top of the wall, unless this is common practice.
Do you know if the copper can handle be drawn through this spring?

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

...This a soft copper, a single piece of tube that is flared at each end.
You don't want to solder soft copper as it's Annealed.
So I have to run the whole length at the same time, thus my question.

Hmmm, I solder soft copper every day. Why use copper? Why not CSST?

You can braze and solder soft copper all day long BUT you CAN NOT braze or solder anything related to natural gas or propane EVER. The reason being the obvious, if there is gas in the line you will be having a closed casket funeral and/or down the road Joe home owner might see that solder joint and think,"Hey there's a water line I can tap into!" He and his family will all be having closed casket funerals as well...

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

There are tubing bend kits out there that you can rent or maybe borrow. I would not try to "pull" your line through a bender and the up a wall or anything like that. Can you cut some access holes around your 90* or possibly notch the wood in question (as long as it is not structural)? Then run the line and bend it after the fact?

Another solution would be to run it on the surface and then build a false wall over that 6' location which would also allow you to bend it after it has been run.

Personally, I would not put a flared 90* in a wall cavity. I like all joints to be exposed whenever possible.

Also a 90* bend is pretty severe so be very careful not to kink the line and also use a high quality bending tool. I would definitely not use a spring bender for a 90* gas line...

Maybe you might want to hire this one line out if you cannot safely figuer out a solution...

 

[DonnyT]

This is a new install. He didn't tie into the existing gas line yet!!! Braze/solder away. Are compression fittings permissible on gas lines in your state?? Not sure they are legal period though? Also, you can solder this soft annealed copper.

 

[CNGsaves]

Answer is BLACK PIPE STEEL. . . . . . simple enough to walk into Lowes or HD and buy the pieces and couple pipe wrenches!!

How can you not be able to run a couple pipe wrenches???

Just use pipedope or yellow teflon tape and done deal after leak testing.

 

[dieselgarage]

Answer is BLACK PIPE STEEL. . . . . . simple enough to walk into Lowes or HD and buy the pieces and couple pipe wrenches!!

How can you not be able to run a couple pipe wrenches???

Just use pipedope or yellow teflon tape and done deal after leak testing.

Please See Post One.

 

[CNGsaves]

Please See Post One.

See Post # 8 . . . . where Tim The Toolman is trying to SAVE THE LIFE of some of these guys wanting to jerry rig stuff with copper work-a-round or CSST.

Why try to make it "look pretty" when you're likely going to blow up the building with your jerry rig?? Surface mount the black pipe steel and be done with it!!

 

[Stuart in MN]

As the original poster said, soft copper is commonly used in Minnesota for gas lines - I have it in my house as well.

However, I'm not sure how to solve the problem of pulling it through a tight bend, can you find a different routing, or a different way of transitioning from the wall to ceiling? A photo of the area may help.

 

[darkk]

You can use a spring to prevent kinks from happening. I had the same problem only down a wall between two studs had to make a 90 deg bend to the right and then another 90 deg bend left into the other roomwith about 25 ft on each side. I had about 14" of room between the studs and it was almost impossible but I did manage. Took 4 of us. One feeding, one pulling and me and a helper in the middle trying to make the two bends for every push/pull cycle.

 

[3barboost]

to avoid the 90degree bend on the pipe can you not loop the pipe in the opposite direction first and then over - kinda like a highway junction overpass
make it a gentle 270deg in the opposite direction first, this will give a bigger radius and less chance of damage to the pipe doing an abrupt 90 ?

 

[CNGsaves]

As the original poster said, soft copper is commonly used in Minnesota for gas lines - I have it in my house as well.

However, I'm not sure how to solve the problem of pulling it through a tight bend, can you find a different routing, or a different way of transitioning from the wall to ceiling? A photo of the area may help.

Sounds like once this dangerous soft copper gas line is put in wall (and covered up so subsequent home owners won't know it's there), need to paint BIG RED LINE on wall saying Dangerous Gas Line Threat Below!!

First remodel on that house when guy is installing molding or shelving and he uses an air nailer, that piddly soft copper pipe will be leaking for sure.

Learned something today about houses in Minnesota . . . . Buyer Beware! Sure hope every house sold has Disclosure Statement about hidden dangers in wall from soft copper gas line!!

 

[madosta]

Can you post some pictures of the problem? I have a hard time understanding and reading through all the opinion posts about how copper ***** and you are an idiot for not using CSST or black iron pipe.

If it is code, and inspected, and normal for your community, we should try and solve the specific problem.

Once that is done, we can offer advice as to using alternative methods of gas distribution.

Hell you guys can even recommend a geothermal heat pump instead of gas for heat...

PICS PLZ.

 

[ishiboo]

There are 90s and 45s available at Home Depot etc, eh?

A flared 90 would work, but the gas code prohibits it in an inaccessible location.

You can braze and solder soft copper all day long BUT you CAN NOT braze or solder anything related to natural gas or propane EVER. The reason being the obvious, if there is gas in the line you will be having a closed casket funeral and/or down the road Joe home owner might see that solder joint and think,"Hey there's a water line I can tap into!" He and his family will all be having closed casket funerals as well...

Completely wrong. A brazed connection is not only permitted but recommended for soft copper gas service. A brazed connection WOULD be allowed in this instance and is probably the best solution, but it'd need to be professionally brazed IMO.

This is a new install. He didn't tie into the existing gas line yet!!! Braze/solder away. Are compression fittings permissible on gas lines in your state?? Not sure they are legal period though? Also, you can solder this soft annealed copper.

Compression fittings are not legal in most areas, flare are. But neither are allowed in the wal.

As the original poster said, soft copper is commonly used in Minnesota for gas lines - I have it in my house as well.

However, I'm not sure how to solve the problem of pulling it through a tight bend, can you find a different routing, or a different way of transitioning from the wall to ceiling? A photo of the area may help.

Agreed. For the OP to do this, it will be difficult, but 5.5"x11.25" may be enough room to do it just in soft copper.

Sounds like once this dangerous soft copper gas line is put in wall (and covered up so subsequent home owners won't know it's there), need to paint BIG RED LINE on wall saying Dangerous Gas Line Threat Below!!

First remodel on that house when guy is installing molding or shelving and he uses an air nailer, that piddly soft copper pipe will be leaking for sure.

Learned something today about houses in Minnesota . . . . Buyer Beware! Sure hope every house sold has Disclosure Statement about hidden dangers in wall from soft copper gas line!!

Soft copper is used in many places, often for LP. The pressures used are <1psi and like black pipe it is tested to much higher pressures, material failures are probably as rare as on black pipe.

Like CSST and black pipe, this would be installed in the center of the wall with metal plates over the studs and the chance of a nail/screw piercing is slim.

That being said, most installations usually consist of soft copper in exposed basement ceilings to a basement furnace, it is not typically piped everywhere in the walls.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Soft copper is used in many places, often for LP. The pressures used are <1psi and like black pipe it is tested to much higher pressures, material failures are probably as rare as on black pipe.

Typical natural gas pressure in Minneapolis is 1/2 psi, so yes there is very little stress on the pipe itself.

I should have clarified earlier that in my house the basement is unfinished, so the gas line is just fastened to the floor joists and not run inside a wall.

 

[Mr.N]

Please no preaching about using black pipe. Here in Minnesota we run type L copper in our houses for gas. I bet if you can't hold your tongue your state doesn't use gas heat as much as our state.

Sounds like once this dangerous soft copper gas line is put in wall

CNGsaves location = Kansas. Nailed it.

CNGsaves , Please stop trolling up this thread.
Unless you can post official documentation on why running gas copper line is bad.

Links to show it's safe to use, when following simple directions.
http://www.copper.org/Applications/fuelgas/pdf/south_cal_gas_final_report.pdf
http://www.copper.org/applications/fuelgas/pdf/Official_Copper.pdf

 

[Mr.N]

ishiboo, thanks for the relpies.

Completely wrong. A brazed connection is not only permitted but recommended for soft copper gas service. A brazed connection WOULD be allowed in this instance and is probably the best solution, but it'd need to be professionally brazed IMO.

I have two professional at my disposable to help if needed.

Agreed. For the OP to do this, it will be difficult, but 5.5"x11.25" may be enough room to do it just in soft copper.

I do have the 12" studs on 16" centers, so I could tilt the hole and get a little more room.

Like CSST and black pipe, this would be installed in the center of the wall with metal plates over the studs and the chance of a nail/screw piercing is slim.

I was planning on plating the few areas behind a wall.

That being said, most installations usually consist of soft copper in exposed basement ceilings to a basement furnace, it is not typically piped everywhere in the walls.

It's rather common in MN for people to have gas stoves and the copper line ran through the house.

Right now I'm thinking of notching the wall and making a wood die to bend the pipe. Pushing the pipe into the opening, then repairing the small notch with a 2x4 under the 2x6 double top plate.

 

[Mr.N]

Can you post some pictures of the problem? I have a hard time understanding and reading through all the opinion posts about how copper ***** and you are an idiot for not using CSST or black iron pipe.

If it is code, and inspected, and normal for your community, we should try and solve the specific problem.

Once that is done, we can offer advice as to using alternative methods of gas distribution.

Hell you guys can even recommend a geothermal heat pump instead of gas for heat...

PICS PLZ.

It's just a typical 7' wall to a ceiling. Wall is 2x6 & ceiling is made of 2x12, both with sheet rock covering them.

It's more than code, it's common in several states.

Loved you comment about geothermal!

 

[Mr.N]

As the original poster said, soft copper is commonly used in Minnesota for gas lines - I have it in my house as well.

However, I'm not sure how to solve the problem of pulling it through a tight bend, can you find a different routing, or a different way of transitioning from the wall to ceiling? A photo of the area may help.

I could run it in a 2x4 interior wall to avoid the other route, but didn't like the idea of it being so close to the sheet rock. Plus it would mean removing a lot more sheet rock to replace.

 

[PT Doc]

Why not use the flexible yellow coated line?

 

[Mr.N]

Why not use the flexible yellow coated line?

CSST? Cost more and the pro's I know said run copper.

 

[brewchief]

If I'm seeing it my mind correctly I would feed it from the wall were the bend will be unrolling it from the coil as I went, then notch the top plate and use the shape of the coil to help with the bend.

One thing I've learned over the years is if you have to open up drywall then open it up plenty big, you have the mess and dust of the repair no matter what so make enough room to make the job go easy.

 

[Dustball]

Sounds like once this dangerous soft copper gas line is put in wall (and covered up so subsequent home owners won't know it's there), need to paint BIG RED LINE on wall saying Dangerous Gas Line Threat Below!!

First remodel on that house when guy is installing molding or shelving and he uses an air nailer, that piddly soft copper pipe will be leaking for sure.

Learned something today about houses in Minnesota . . . . Buyer Beware! Sure hope every house sold has Disclosure Statement about hidden dangers in wall from soft copper gas line!!

Better add Wisconsin to your list as well. My whole house is plumbed with soft copper for the gas lines- built in 1997.

 

[AndyA]

Copper will work harden when you bend it. You can reanneal it using a propane torch. Just heat it up to almost red. Let it cool in air, or quench it with water. Copper will not quench harden. I've coiled 1/4" tube to a 1" radius with this method before. Take your time. Don't force it, and reanneal as needed.

That being said. I have no clue as to whether reannealing will violate any codes. I doubt there will be any problems since the flexible copper tubing is already annealed when you buy it.

 

[Mr.N]

If I'm seeing it my mind correctly I would feed it from the wall were the bend will be unrolling it from the coil as I went, then notch the top plate and use the shape of the coil to help with the bend.

One thing I've learned over the years is if you have to open up drywall then open it up plenty big, you have the mess and dust of the repair no matter what so make enough room to make the job go easy.

Yeah, this seems to be best option for this problem.

For everyone who helped, thank you!

 

[CNGsaves]

I could run it in a 2x4 interior wall to avoid the other route, but didn't like the idea of it being so close to the sheet rock. Plus it would mean removing a lot more sheet rock to replace.

I'm hoping for your safety and your family, AND future homeowner's that you are attemping to do this natural gas run SAFELY with soft copper - - - regardless of how much sheet rock needs removed! Sounds like this would be first time you ever attempted copper run and didn't know about plating over dangerous locations where soft copper could be punctured later.

Only thing that makes sense is you got Free or cheap roll of copper tubing, as you say that other products cost too much, and "Pro's told you to use copper . . . and you have 2 Pro's at your disposal who can help." Street price for 1/2" of copper coil that would cover 45 ft run that you say you need is $105 for 60 ft roll at HD:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...gId=-1&keyword=1/2"+soft+copper&storeId=10051

Why ask GJ in general if "you have 2 copper Pro's at your disposal" . . .?? Why not provide some pictures so better help could have been provided??

Compare to 1/2" black pipe steel: $9 stick for vertical in wall, few bucks for elbows, and say $40 for long 40 ft run out to the meter (ie contractor grade 21 ft sticks of black pipe would minimize connections) - - - thus, I'm guessing total materials on black pipe steel would be say $60 total.

The GJers in MN or MI brought up SAFETY concerns for your planned copper run, especially if you don't have propane torch to make bends easier . . . or actually hire one of your "copper Pro contacts" as they'll know tricks of the trade in working with copper. I don't have any problem with copper in non-critical spaces when properly installed. Good luck and Be Safe.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I have a ratchet tubing bender I use for refrigeration line sets,it goes from 3/8" o.d up to 7/8" o.d copper tubing.
I normally just use it on the 3/4-7/8 tubing

 

[JimL]

So you need to go thru the top plate into the attic? Just drill a 2 1/2" hole thru the plate,

Probably using 1/2" or 5/8" in my industry, that would be fairly easy to fish down thru the plate into the wall once you get a decent size hole. It doesn't need a super tight bend. You will want to push it down, and have some one lightly pull it down while forming the copper to go down thru the plate. Straighten it out once you get down out of the attic.

That said, not the correct way to run NG. That long of run thru 1/2" copper, I hope you don't have a very big heater.

All the pro's say use copper because its easy and they are lazy..........

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Completely wrong. A brazed connection is not only permitted but recommended for soft copper gas service. A brazed connection WOULD be allowed in this instance and is probably the best solution, but it'd need to be professionally brazed IMO.

I am not completely wrong, brazed copper gas line connections in new installations are not a nationally recognized method of joining gas pipe but could be accepted locally for you. Will it work? Absolutely! I braze copper all the time when I am running HVAC line sets which are under far greater pressure than a natural gas or propane line will ever be. So, yes if you know what you are doing (read: an experienced tradesman) and it is allowed by your local code (which it is not in my area) then have at it.

To me it seems that the OP is somewhat of a novice who is attempting to run a soft copper gas line of questionable diameter through some precarious bends to a garage space heater. That said, I would never recommend he try his hand at brazing as well and I am not saying that you were. What really set my alarm off was that the discussion on this thread was heading down a road that was suggesting the use of sweat fit rigid elbows and couplings. I just always cringe when I see a novice near a gas line with a torch. So, yes I, all be it intentionally, overstated my caution where brazing is concerned.

Personally, I would like to hear that the OP hired this job out or decided to go with black iron pipe which he pressure tested before he put it in service.

 

[Mr.N]

I'm hoping for your safety and your family, AND future homeowner's that you are attemping to do this natural gas run SAFELY with soft copper - - - regardless of how much sheet rock needs removed! Sounds like this would be first time you ever attempted copper run and didn't know about plating over dangerous locations where soft copper could be punctured later.

If you clicked the linked I posted above you'd see they show how to run copper gas line safely.
I've worked with copper more than an average home owner, even Silver Solder Gas copper line before! (Only with one of my Pro's over my shoulder watching the process after practicing it first)
I understand you would not run copper if you life depended on it, however the links above also show it as an industry standard. I would rather trust known sources of truth than someone posting on a forum. So please take the time and post a link to a known source of truth that backs up your information. Now if you can do that, I'll change my direction.

Only thing that makes sense is you got Free or cheap roll of copper tubing, as you say that other products cost too much, and "Pro's told you to use copper . . . and you have 2 Pro's at your disposal who can help." Street price for 1/2" of copper coil that would cover 45 ft run that you say you need is $105 for 60 ft roll at HD:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...gId=-1&keyword=1/2"+soft+copper&storeId=10051

Plus my main question was on how to make a 90 degree bend, not how to run or size the copper. (It's more like a 38' run)
I got the 60' roll from Menards for $65, 1/2 copper. on sale and it had a dent I will be cutting off.
Plus my neighbor has the same heater and ran a 45' 1/2" line and it works great. 45K Mr Heater

Why ask GJ in general if "you have 2 copper Pro's at your disposal" . . .?? Why not provide some pictures so better help could have been provided??

My Pro's have time for me on the phone, not to come over and help. Relatives (pipe-fitters) that don't live close at this time of the year.

Not sure what a basic picture of a wall will help... but it looks like this room. Think the back wall of 2x6's and the ceiling of 2x12's
The Heater copper gas line will be ran just like the copper gas line of the dryer, up from the basement of a split 2 level, but into the ceiling and then out to the attached garage.

Compare to 1/2" black pipe steel: $9 stick for vertical in wall, few bucks for elbows, and say $40 for long 40 ft run out to the meter (ie contractor grade 21 ft sticks of black pipe would minimize connections) - - - thus, I'm guessing total materials on black pipe steel would be say $60 total.

Almost what I paid for the copper. Plus the copper is much easier to run as I don't have to make a bunch of 90 degree angles and thus take down less Sheetrock and reduce my labor time. I can use a long bit and drill on the middle of the 2x12's to angle the run across the ceiling.

The GJers in MN or MI brought up SAFETY concerns for your planned copper run, especially if you don't have propane torch to make bends easier . . . or actually hire one of your "copper Pro contacts" as they'll know tricks of the trade in working with copper. I don't have any problem with copper in non-critical spaces when properly installed. Good luck and Be Safe.

As this is copper gas line, I'm do not think it's safe to use a torch and re-anneal it. Thus my original question on how to make the 90* turn.

 

[Mr.N]

To me it seems that the OP is somewhat of a novice who is attempting to run a soft copper gas line of questionable diameter through some precarious bends to a garage space heater. That said, I would never recommend he try his hand at brazing as well and I am not saying that you were. What really set my alarm off was that the discussion on this thread was heading down a road that was suggesting the use of sweat fit rigid elbows and couplings. I just always cringe when I see a novice near a gas line with a torch. So, yes I, all be it intentionally, overstated my caution where brazing is concerned.

Personally, I would like to hear that the OP hired this job out or decided to go with black iron pipe which he pressure tested before he put it in service.

Novice at gas lines yes, but it's not my first time working with gas lines. I'm sure they will be hooked up correctly with some help I have available.
Diameter in not questionable, there is more than enough volume for the run.
Also there are not "precarious bends", only one that I asked help for.

If you noticed, I stated I would not sweat soft copper before your first post. I am not as educated on this as you and may not have stated it as well, however I know not to braze the soft copper for gas.

Yes gas is very dangerous. Rather than preaching to the forum, why don't you give a detail explanation to use on what safety steps to follow when running gas?
That way I'm sure many people would feel it's too much work and farm the job out.
If I do go forward with the garage heater, I will not be farming the job out. it's just a simple ~38' run with one 11" diameter bend that has been solved.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Novice at gas lines yes, but it's not my first time working with gas lines. I'm sure they will be hooked up correctly with some help I have available.
Diameter in not questionable, there is more than enough volume for the run.
Also there are not "precarious bends", only one that I asked help for.

If you noticed, I stated I would not sweat soft copper before your first post. I am not as educated on this as you and may not have stated it as well, however I know not to braze the soft copper for gas.

Yes gas is very dangerous. Rather than preaching to the forum, why don't you give a detail explanation to use on what safety steps to follow when running gas?
That way I'm sure many people would feel it's too much work and farm the job out.
If I do go forward with the garage heater, I will not be farming the job out. it's just a simple ~38' run with one 11" diameter bend that has been solved.

Uhm, read post #9 where I did offer a solution. Sorry I hurt your feelings!

 

[Mr.N]

Can you cut some access holes around your 90* or possibly notch the wood in question (as long as it is not structural)? Then run the line and bend it after the fact?

And thank you for the idea, your solution was the one I picked.

However I'd still like to see you post some idea's on what to do when running a gas line. With as long as this thread is, and as popular at GJ is, I'm sure it will come up on many future Google searches.

I agree with you, running a gas line is not for the average person. If done wrong, it could lead to dismemberment and death of more than just the person running the line.

 

[Mike007]

Ive been working in the plumbing/heating/AC trades for 20+ years. Rather then give you my opinion on the "using copper for gas lines" debate going on, I opened up the International Fuel Gas Code. This is whats used by the state of NJ and thousands of other jurisdictions country wide.

Yes you most likely can use copper in your jurisdiction.

Section 403.5.2 Copper and brass tubing. Copper tubing shall comply with standard Type K or L of ASTM B 88 or ASTM B 280. Copper tubing small not be used if the gas contains more then an average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard feet of gas (0.7 milligrams per 100 liters)

I was doubtful soft soldering would be a good idea or allowed. I was correct. It's covered in section 403.10.2 Tubing joints.

Tubing joints shall be made with approved gas tubing fittings or brazed with a material having a melting point in excess of 1,000*F (538*C)

Hope this helps.

 

[Mike007]

Another section that addresses protecting copper pipe:

404.5 Protection against physical damage.

In concealed locations, where piping other than black or galvanized steel is installed through holes or notches in wood studs, joists, rafters or similar members less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) from the nearest edge of the member, the pipe shall be protected by shield plates. Shield plates shall be a minimum of 1/16-inch-thick (1.6 mm) steel, shall cover the area of the pipe where the member is notched or bored and shall extend a minimum of 4 inches (102 mm) above sole plates, below top plates and to each side of a stud, joist or rafter.