Going to machining class is downright painful

[kf4zht]

I thought it would be nice having a machining class to break the monotony of IT teachers who are hopelessly out of date but I swear it's getting painful to go to class. Everywhere I look there are broken and abused high dollar tools. Mititoyo calipers and mics that are bent, parts broken off. Today I found a drill bit that had not only been cooked till the tip was blue but the cutting area had actually melted.

Today I wasted an hour trying to teach my assigned lab partner how to center a peice on a 4 jaw chuck. I would show him within .015 and let him finish it (to about .002) 3 times he took it from .015 out to over .1 out. We have been working on the lathes for 2 weeks and he still can't remember which lever turns the lathe on and which engages the feed.

I just can't see how people can care that little. It takes about as many controls to drive a car as run a lathe, how hard is it. Guess that is why so many people can't drive a stickshift.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

People don't seem to care nowdays. Micrometers and calipers should be handled like eggs, not thrown about. I suppose they are on some kind of grant or aid. If they are paying for it, why are they there?

Charles

 

[Matti]

Some people get it and some don't. I think it comes down to aptitude mostly. I remember a guy in my class who didn't understand where metal chips came from. This was after watching a piece being turned on a lathe.

 

[PAToyota]

Unfortunately, it isn't just schools. Last job I had I had to constantly harp on people about treating $**,*** printing and scanning equipment with some care. If you want to slap your $100 TV in your living room when it isn't working right, that's your problem. If you're going to beat on equipment under my care, I'm going to make sure that you understand that I have a problem with it...

 

[NAYLOR]

I know your pain. A couple years ago I was in my machining class making a drill bit diameter gauge. Over half the kids (engineering majors) didn't know how to chuck up a bit or keep the work piece from spinning around on the drill press.

 

[kf4zht]

I know your pain. A couple years ago I was in my machining class making a drill bit diameter gauge. Over half the kids (engineering majors) didn't know how to chuck up a bit or keep the work piece from spinning around on the drill press.

Yeah, I like the guys in my class that think the key is needed to turn a drill chuck. They will turn it all the way from closed to 1/2" with the key.

Also morse tapers seem to cause alot of problems.

 

[JB740i]

I just can't understand why the school would order the expensive stuff? Wouldn't the HF calipers be reasonable enough for teaching purposes? Save the more quality stuff for the advanced class?

In organic lab you were assigned a drawer full of glassware. If you broke it, you had to buy a replacement before the end of the semester.

Now obviously, you could expect people to pony up the money for a bunch of machinist tools if they were broken, but maybe a precentage of the replacement cost?

 

[goodfellow]

I don't think it's disrespect that causes people to abuse some of that equipment; it's ignorance. In my day we were offered shop classes in school, which emphasized a healthy respect for tools and craftsmanship. Most of my classmates actively worked with their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, etc. on DIY projects and were taught practical tool craft.

Today, industrial arts classes have been eliminated from most high school curricula, and shop class disappeared years ago from middle schools. Younger folks have never neen taught, or shown by example, to appreciate craftsmanship and good tools.

We now have a whole generation of computer wizards who know the intricacies of video game craft, but who don't know a screw from a nail, or can appreciate the precision of a good measuring device.

Case in point, I know a young "CNC machinist" who doesn't know very much about manual machining -- doesn't care to know. He's a machine operator, and the fact that old-time manual machine work required a keen knowledge of trigonometry doesn't mean much to him. He couldn't spell "cosine" and "sine", let alone tell you the significance of the relationship.

I'm glad to see that there are folks still interested in learning manual machining -- that's always a good sign. As their skill set increases, they'll appreciate good tools.

 

[JohnK007]

Today, industrial arts classes have been eliminated from most high school curricula, and shop class disappeared

Man, have you got that right. When I went to HS (1969 - 73) we had Woodshop, Metalshop, Auto Shop, Print Shop, Drafting and Aviation Construction (we built a Volksplane out of plywood!! Flew it too!). Today at my old school only the Auto Shop and Print Shop are still around.
When I took my son to Open House at his new HS some 8 years ago I asked one of the student helpers where the auto and wood shops were. The kid just looked at me like I was dense. He didn't know what I was talking about. I finally asked him, "You know, the classrooms where they build things out of wood and learn to work on cars?" His reply was something akin to "We don't have anything like that here" Like I was some kind of country bumpkin! It's no wonder things are messed up in this world. No one knows how to make or repair anything anymore. Just toss it away and buy a new one. That's why I'm pleased to interact with the younger members on this board. You fellows at least have the interest and desire to work with your hands instead of just sitting on them. Rant off.

 

[Kevin54]

Case in point, I know a young "CNC machinist" who doesn't know very much about manual machining -- doesn't care to know. He's a machine operator, and the fact that old-time manual machine work required a keen knowledge of trigonometry doesn't mean much to him. He couldn't spell "cosine" and "sine" yet alone tell you the significance of the relationship.

I'm glad to see that there are folks still interested in learning manual machining -- that's always a good sign. As their skill set increases, they'll appreciate good tools.

Try to take someone that has never really machined anything at all and try and turn them into a Tool & Die Maker. When people are on the outside looking in, they all think they can do it. When they are on the inside it is a whole complete different story.

 

[Steve in Mi]

Today I wasted an hour trying to teach my assigned lab partner how to center a peice on a 4 jaw chuck.

You could think of it as another hour spent honeing your own proficiency, but I hear you.

I guess you'll be setting up a home machine shop soon if you haven't already for enjoyment and a more relaxed atmosphere.

Some of the drill bits out there today can almost go into meltdown from looking at them. I don't think I have any from across the water but I have heard they are hardly fit for drilling in wood and many come pre-bent. If it bends it isn't for drilling.

 

[Mike of the North]

Right now I have a Bridgeport, a Logan lathe, a horizontal mill, and a universal grinder in my garage, when my son is old enough to learn he will be taught how to set up and run all of them, he is only 3 1/2 so it will be a little while, but I am ready to teach him some useful skills.

 

[BillK]

Richard,

First of all, I would blame the instructor as much as anyone. The first thing that should be taught in a class like that is how to use and care for the tools.

Other than that, I just dont think the younger people today have the passion for mechanical / technical things like we did when we were younger. I am not real sure that it is something you can learn in a class. You have to be partly born with it and definitely needs to be in your upbringing.

Ask anyone that has a business that involves working with your hands. Getting good employees is almost impossible

73

 

[ZRX61]

There are people out there who can't use a file correctly.... I know, I've seen them first hand & my first question is usually "Just WTF are you doing?".

Truth of the matter is some people have mechanical aptitude, some people can be taught it & some people wouldn't know what it was if it slapped them in the face.

The world is full of people who shouldn't handle anything sharper than a cupcake..

 

[rsanter]

when I was in college I took one of the shop classes every semester. auto shop, engine building, suspension, machine shop.
I would take the classes over and over as credit/no credit and for the $15 lab fee I had access to a full shop
mills
lathes
engine machining equipment
engine dyno
chassis dyno
lifts
flow bench

the instructor used to tease me that I had built more engines in that shop than any student in history.

most the small tools were missing or junk
I had bought my own cutters, measuring tools, etc
I also used to use the old lathe in the back that was large and nobody else wanted to get near it.
every body would wait to use one of the wells index (Bport copies) but I used an old brown&sharpe horizontal/verticle machine (which I would live to have one now)

you have to remember that all students can have access to the stuff.
some dont care, have no respect, cant find their *** with both hands...etc all get a turn at the stuff

bob

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Many tech schools nowdays are under the gun to reduce cost. The shorten the classes, they have the teacher double up "OK, here's what I want you to do, I'll be back in an hour 'cause I'll be lecturing to another class", or "here's the manual, figure it out, if you have any questions, write them down and catch me after class."

Thus the instructors don't take the time to go over the details of caring for the equipment, use of it, etc. I've heard some real horror stories from some people who attended tech schools, and got virtually no student teacher inter-reaction.

Charles

 

[audi noroad]

It's sad when I was in high school 2000-2004 we had two fairly new CNC mills one for the wood shop and one for the metal shop. Over the 4 years I was there I became proficient in 2-D milling on the wood cnc mill and 3-D on the metal one. I was the only one who knew how to run the wood mill other then the teacher and one of two students who knew how to run the metal mill.

I had a background in woodworking so I was able to jump right into the wood mill. When I started metal shop the teacher put me on the lathe, drill press, etc. and the manual mill first to get a feel for cutting metal. I was so grateful before he set me in front of the CNC mill, because I would have had no idea what rpms, feed rate, etc. to set before running it, let alone having such an appreciation for what it was.

It was sad to see the equipment that was used by all the student in a similar shape as described here, drill bits broken, bent, burnt, etc. the lathes weren't in the best shape anymore, some damaged. And when the new school for the district went up I was disappointed in the lack of manual machinery available.

One can only hope there are still enough interested people that it somehow survives past societies changes.

 

[kf4zht]

Our teacher is actually very good an encourages people to take care of the stuff. The only thing that I know of that our class has broken was a center drill. My partner did it, apparently no one ever told him that drilling 1/2" past where the flutes ended was a bad idea.

Most of the new tooling is cheap unfortunately. It's the older stuff that got abused, so they bought the chinese stuff. The drill bit I found was a US made, high quailty bit. One of the teachers taught a class on power systems and a class project was to repair a 4 stroke engine. He had gotten tired of people stealing the good ratchets so he found a deal on cheap ones for a couple bucks each. He figured out after our class broke 4 in one day that they may be a little too cheap.

I another class we are building a hacksaw, one of the pieces is CR 20ga bent to allow the adjuster to slide through. There is a jig that is close to the right size, but still off. Several people spent 3+ hours trying to make one that would work. I pissed a few off after I rough bent mine on the jig, finished it on the anvil in 20 minutes on the first try. I showed a few of them how to do it easier, but if it didn't use the jig they didn't want to try it.

My high school never had a shop class, or a metalworking class, or an automotive class. It was too new and built with no special classrooms due to budget cuts. We almost had a wood shop, they even ordered the equipment but it rotted in a back room and most of it was never even fully unpacked.

 

[trackwelder]

I more than likely would not have finished high school if not for votec. I took the carpentry & cabinet class. I was not absent or late ever for the two years that I attended that class. I also had perfect attendence my senior year in autobody. Sure would have liked to had the chance at machine shop but it was not offered.

 

[ZRX61]

What really boils my piss is that the local community college has just thrown $26M away on a new "Theatre/Arts Center" & not a ******** dime on setting up a machine shop program.... despite being told told it's needed by Lockheed, Northrop, Boeing, NASA, General Atomics & Scaled composites...

Yeah, thats what LA needs, more ******** out of work fairies/actors/waiters/wankers....

 

[bmwpower]

Could this be the reason why you see a lot of post HS trade schools all over the place? They're taking the place of what was once done in HS, but you gotta pay for it like it was college or something. Would be nice to get that info in HS though.

And oh, yea, people are ingnorant. Just show me the way to graduation...

 

[Kevin54]

Today I wasted an hour trying to teach my assigned lab partner how to center a peice on a 4 jaw chuck. I would show him within .015 and let him finish it (to about .002) 3 times he took it from .015 out to over .1 out. We have been working on the lathes for 2 weeks and he still can't remember which lever turns the lathe on and which engages the feed.

Just for turds and giggles, ask about tramming the head in on a mill. You think your lab partner has a hard time centering a piece on a 4 jaw...guaranteed he will spend an hour or two trying the tramming. Besides that, it really should be one of the first things checked on a mill anyways for accuracy. If the equipment hasn't been taken any better care of than that, I can only imagine how many times the machines have been crashed.

 

[KraftwerkMk1Jetta]

Yeah, thats what LA needs, more ******** out of work fairies/actors/waiters/wankers....

 

[T_Hed]

I've heard some real horror stories from some people who attended tech schools, and got virtually no student teacher inter-reaction.

Charles

When I took machine shop in college I was 32yrs old. If the instructor did'nt watch over the class like a hawk, some of the adhd afflicted teens no doubt would have lost fingers, eyes, or worse. Leaving the wrench on the drawbar
in the bridgeports was very common. There were several dents in the wall next to the mills .


T

 

[79schaefer]

Ohhhh to get me started. I work in the Tool and Die industry. I am a Tool Designer, but have a great deal of mechanical ability. Most guys come to me with ideas and problems becuase I can see both sides of the problem. The younger people that are in our area are machine operators, not tool makers. If it is not on a print, they can not make it. Oh well, guess that is why I leave work and go home and work in my own shop.

Steve S.
To many projects, not enough time.

 

[kvom]

I am taking a machining course at the local vo-tech school. This summer there was only myself and another guy doing an accelerated lathe/mill program (he is a veteran in the racing mechanics program). Definitely learned a lot, and I will soon have a mill and lathe in my garage.

The fall quarter starts this evening, with most of the students being in the intro class. I basically get to build whatever I want, using the school machines and material, and being able to ask the instructor for advice when needed. Some things I want to learn are use of a rotary table, surface grinder, and cutting internal threads.

My impression of the other students has been that they are serious about a career in machining, but most didn't take trig in HS and will have a steep learning curve in that regard. Generally most people have been respectful of the tools. That said, the instructor tends to save the expensive tools for those he regards as more trustworthy.

 

[pmiranda]

This is sad. How do you get out of HS without learning trig!?
I consider myself lucky that my HS had voc. electronics, auto, and wood shops. I wonder if they're still there?
I guess when my son is old enough I can take some machining classes with him at the local community college in the summers so we can both learn something. I spent all my time on electronics and auto work, never got to learn any machining and haven't welded anything in almost 20 years.

 

[Kevin54]

This is sad. How do you get out of HS without learning trig!?

I made it out with barely being able to understand Algebra let alone Geometry. So I never would have even attempted Trig. Now I use it on a daily basis and actually sit and figure most of the time with a pencil and paper. Todays generation uses the computer to figure everything for them so they lose the concept as to what it actually takes to figure complex shapes and be accurate about it. If you can't understand it in your head, you will struggle, even with the help of a computer. And moreso everyday, there is a decline in people that can actually figure something and grasp the concept at the same time. They rely on computers and CNC's to do the work for them. Setting up a compound sine plate comes as a simple task to me. To others, you cannot get through to them the concept that two shown angles on a blueprint, creates a third angle when set up on a compound sine plate. Even reading the book they do not grasp it.

Some things I want to learn are use of a rotary table, surface grinder, and cutting internal threads.

All great things to learn and all will be used if you are around the equipment. Rotary tables are becoming a thing of the past with 2 axis CNC's becoming the commonplace. But with learning it also brings knowledge that is useful in other areas along with the feeling of accomplishment after you make a part using it.

 

[OldCarGuy]

Being in and around machinery and watching others is a great way to learn and understand machining. I feel fortunate to have been introduced to tool room machinery in early childhood. Knowing that my two older brothers worked along side of my father, I can remember asking him for years if I was old enough. And I was overjoyed the day he gave me the nod! I spent most Saturdays and summers getting up at 5:00 AM going to work with my father. Without pay I would clean the machinery most of the day. My reward was simply getting to run one for an hour or two. I was all eyes and ears and very conscious of how the tool makers made the equipment sing. In a short time I graduated to machine some very complex and precision components. That explains my life long love for machinery. And my retirement workshop is proof of that affection.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

This is sad. How do you get out of HS without learning trig!?

I never had it, and went all the way thru college. Haven't needed it yet. Guess if I take any machinist courses, I'll have trouble.

Charles

 

[KraftwerkMk1Jetta]

What is this "trig" you speak of?

 

[T_Hed]

I never had it, and went all the way thru college. Haven't needed it yet. Guess if I take any machinist courses, I'll have trouble.

Never Fear Charles,
The scientific calculator is your friend, SIN COS and TAN learn to use those three buttons and you are good.
In production machinery processes, pencil and paper are too slow.


T

 

[kvom]

When I took trig in high school, there were no hand calculators. We had a book of tables and had to interpolate as well. Calculators certainly take the pain out of getting the numbers.

 

[madjack]

Sad but true. The local school district board can not see the advantage of vocational education. They think every kid is going to college and will sit at a desk with a computer to earn a living. They shut down and sold off a fully functional industrial machine shop and wood shop that were completely donated and funded by a couple of local industries. The machine shop turned out some of the best prototype machinists in the country. I know one who is a forman for Penski in his indy race shop and 3 more who work for Nascar teams. A dozen or so, who work in the custom gun industry, and it goes on and on. Where do these "Teachers and Educators" think these bright minds come from?

 

[goodfellow]

I think we all agree that our current education system has pretty much neglected industrial arts. The question is what can guys like us do about it?

Do any of you know of an industry lobbying group, non-profit, etc. that is addressing this issue? If there is no such group, let's start one. I'm willing to pony up $$ to get this issue in front of the public. I'm always amazed how much money gets appropriated at federal and state levels for "critical infrastructure" projects, yet never see a dime appropriated for "critical skills". Without "critical skills" there is no "critical infrastructure".

For twenty years I've witnessed the steady decline in the industrial skills and training that helped make this country great. If folks like us don't step up to the plate, then who will?

Not saying we have to cure world hunger, but there are many folks on this board who "know people", or know industry groups that are actively involved in these efforts. We need to know who's actively representing this "pro-education" agenda -- and fund them.

If there is no one doing it, then a new "grass roots" effort may be in order.

Sorry if this sound like a rant, I just wanted to know what you guys think about the issue. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks this is hurting the country as a whole.

 

[84TurboBuick]

When I worked at the machine plant as a jobsetter, I was asked quite often to train people on the machines. The first thing I always did was to grab a chair and sit it in front of the machine.....told the person to sit and watch the machine....the first question was "Why do I have to know how it works, just show me how to fix it when it breaks" (BTW, we are talking multi-million dollar pieces of machinery here)

I agree with all of you that people just want to "Push buttons" and let the computer handle everything. No time is spent understanding how a machine works or how everything goes together.

On a side note....when I was thinking of leaving Chrysler and going to a new job.....the 2 "Interviewers" kept asking me if I knew the different computer systems they had....I told them no, but I had worked on dozens of other types of systems and that I could pick up whatever system they used. When I explained to them that when I worked at the machine plant I had to not only fix the equipment but also, run it and set it up....they both looked at me and asked "Why...if you know how the computer works, what do you need to understand the equipment for"

I guess the days of actually trying to figure out how things work is long gone.

 

[Bevis]

I wished I'd could find a machining class near me... Had a old timer years ago that used to teach me some things, he'd answer any and all questions I had on how the machines would work. Sure miss that fella and the manual machines he had.

 

[LoneGunman]

The kids are not learning because their dads don't know. I'm 39 and even when I was a kid a lot of dads sent their car out to be worked on and hired people to do things, we didn't have the money for that so my dad did it all with me helping, most of the times not having a say in the matter. My two step brothers were pretty much spoiled by my step mother, they never had to do anything. I thought it was very unfair as a kid but now I thank God my dad taught me stuff. I thought he was playing favorites by not making them work, he was, he was favoring me. I cold picture it going through my fathers head at the time, Hmmmmmmm you mean you don't want me to teach your kids anything mechanical? Let them stay in the house and play? Yes dear, whatever you say.

Both of my step brothers are pretty much useless now when it comes to anything mechanical.

My two boys are not exactly shop rats but they do know their way around. My 13 year old is making a knife out of an old file, we just tempered it the other night so he can start grinding on it. Him and my 10 year old are also working on a black powder revolver kit.

 

[Coach James]

High schools are moving away from vocational tracks to all college tracks because that is what most parents want. If parents wanted the vocational programs to stay, they would stay. School board members are politicians and will respond to what voters say they want.

My former school system got rid of most vocational programs because most parents wanted their kids to go to college, or at least wanted to think their kids were going to college. The majority of the teachers wanted the vocat programs to stay as we recognize the absurdity of trying to send every kid to college.

Coach

 

[rattlecan]

I know your pain. A couple years ago I was in my machining class making a drill bit diameter gauge. Over half the kids (engineering majors) didn't know how to chuck up a bit or keep the work piece from spinning around on the drill press.

How many tried to use their hands to stop the piece from spinning?