Electric TANK Water Heater/ DO I HAVE any other logical choice ???

[CamarosRus]

Please give me a chance to explain my dilimma..................

My stick framed shop had finished sheetrock interior when I bought it.

There was toilet room with a small house style vanity and small hand wash sink with 110 Volt point of use water heater below sink.

I have removed the vanity, sink and small water heater. I want my shop to have large stainless restaurant style "sink" for not only hand washing but for anything/everything you would do in a auto shop sink. This stainless sink will be in the main shop area and a new vanity/sink will go back into "toilet" room.

Shop has 1/2" CSST "Gastite" flex line running 70' feet from gas meter area to
REZNOR 100K BTU heater suspended from 13' ceiling. Ive found out this 1/2" CSST supply line would not have enough volume to supply a gas water heater also.

I was then thinking elec tankless. Shop only has 80 Amp panel coming from house 200 amp panel.[NOT its own separate panel]. Elec tankless requires 60 amp breaker and I'm thinking how would that work when my entire panel is only 80Amp ??? Also I have no easy way to run 6 ga wire from panel to where elec tankless would need to be mounted.

I do have old/existing air compressor 10ga wire(30 amp circuit) to use for elec TANK style heater, so that is what Im left with.

Dont know the cost/reality of keeping 40 gal TANK hot when it wont be getting the normal workout like a house tank servicing dishwasher, showers, kithcen sinks all day long........

I'm leaning toward the short $308 9 year Home Depot 40 gal G.E. vs the more expensive short 38gal RHEEM "Fury" model

What is your .02

 

[MrMark]

What is your gas pressure?

At the normal .5 psi or less natural gas pressure and .5 WC drop the 1/2" csst is only good for 35K btu at 70 feet; so either you have a hell of a pressure system or your numbers are way off or your heater doesn't come close to working.

Your best bet for your use would be to run a 1 inch pipe gas line and use a rinnai or noritz tankless. At 70' you do need 1 inch pipe. For csst you would need 1 1/4.

Large Tank water heater for your use would tend to be a waste.

You could go with a 2-6 gallon electric hot water heater and it would probably satisfy your limited needs without wasting a lot of energy if you can't run the proper gas line to do a tankless. Bradford White sell a 2 gallon elec heater that plugs into 120V. They also have a 6 gallon that probably can go either 120 or 240 whatever way you choose. There's nothing you are going to do at a sink that needs more than 6 gallons of hot.

 

[bgarrett]

aren't you people in seattle required to use solar water heaters?

 

[readhead]

70' of 1/2" line? I'm amazed the heater works at all. We have a 2 gallon electric that plugs into a 20 amp circut.

 

[SteveCh]

Just priced 1" black pipe in my area. Last week, as a matter of fact. 10' lengths here run $30 each. Ouch. If I'm willing to drive 50 miles, I found it at Home Depot for a third less, about $21/10 ft. I did not price the fittings, I am just contemplating replacing my 3/4" to increase pressure [propane] from 120' uphill from the tank. So, your 70 ft. of pipe run could go as high as $200 or so just for the pipe. Might be worth it, I don't know.

 

[Highbeam]

aren't you people in seattle required to use solar water heaters?

No. We're not.

Our power rates are very low though at 10 cents delivered per kwh. As such, just nut up and put in the tank heater. It is the simplest and cheapest.

 

[Kevin54]

If all you are going to have is a stainless steel sink, why do you need a 40 gallon water heater. Some homes have that size with 1 or 2 taking a shower. If it were me, and this is just my opinion, I would get a smaller water heater, electric, and have it on a timer. Make sure you have the most efficient water heater and wrap it with the blanket. Maybe even go as far as building a highly insulated enclosure using something like 2" styrofoam. If you aren't going to be taking a bath in the stainless steel sink and only going to use it periodically through the day, put it on a timer, start it up first thing in the morning and shut it off in early afternoon. No need to run it 24/7.

Could you get by with a 20 gallon? Lowes has "Point of Use" in 20, 12, and 6 gallons in electric.

 

[RECox286]

Why not get something like a camper sized electric water heater

and utilize the old air compressor service ? Campers have some

really small tanks, and you could turn the service on and off with a

suitable switch to your convience.

Uncle Bob

 

[BMW Rider]

I had a larger gas fire water heater in my shop and replaced it with a 5 gallon 120v electric one since I never used enough hot water to justify the big one. It was getting older and I figured it was due to rupture one day, so I swapped it out when I was redoing my heating boiler and tying in the new addition. Had to rework the gas connection anyway, so it seemed like the perfect time to get rid of the big tank. The little one fits under the cabinet next to the sink, so I actually gained more space to tidy up the boiler install too. The electric one does require a 20A circuit, but I was doing a buch of wiring all ready so it was simple to run one more circuit for it at the same time.

 

[pmiranda]

Either the little 2-5 gal conventional tank electric heater, or take this as an excuse to run a bigger feed to the shop that you know you want anyway

 

[CamarosRus]

My first experience owning a detached shop. My last "garage" (shop) was part of my two floor home and had a 40 gal gas (tank) water heater in the garage, where I then installed a laundry tub.

So now I dont have any idea on how much of a elec water heater tank supply I need standing by.
I failed to mention there is a possability that I will add a shower when I reframe the bathroom. But even then the shower would be used very seldom.

I cant explain why and dont know the pressure.....but my UDAP100 (BTU) REZNOR runs well and heats my shop very nicely.

I can see where the 1/2" Gastite CSST (3/4" OD) comes into the shop, through PVC that was run up through the concrete footin forms. I still havent found the other end close to the meter (??) Ive been under this rambler house crawl space and cant find the shop CSST. Doubt if I'll try and pull new 3/4" gastite through PVC if I ever find the meter end.

Anyway guess I'll GOOGLE 20 gal (and smaller) elec 220 V Tank elec heaters to see what
my options are.

Curious if anybody reading this is GASTITE certified.....to purchase and install the fittings.

 

[VHF]

If you are concerned about standby losses with an electric tank type water heater but you want to have 40 gallons on hand for future shower you should consider a Marathon. These have a plastic tank surrounded by 4" of foam insulaton. Lifetime warranty and extreamly low standby losses. Total power consumption won't be much different than a tankless electric, but it will only draw 4500 watts on a 30A 240V breaker.

Or go with a conventional 6 or 10 gallon under-counter tank and keep your showers short! Standby losses will be higher as the these smaller units typically aren't as well insulated, although you could add some insulation. Keep in mind that all the standby losses from the water heater go to help warm your garage (which could be good or bad depending on the season!)

 

[VHF]

There are smaller single-element tankless electric water heaters than can run on a single 50A breaker. Typically around 9500 watt power consumption. There is a limitation in flow rate and temperature rise, and while fine for a sink I'm not sure it would have enough temperature rise at typical shower flow rates. Also depends on how cold your incoming water is.

I ran my kitchen sink off one for over a year--the existing under-slab hot water line to the kitchen spung a leak under the concrete floor; rather than jackhammer up the floor to fix it, I installed an Eemax tankless unit under the kitchen sink. It worked fine for the kitchen sink and feeding the dishwasher. However, that was in Arkansas where incoming cold water was typically 60F even in winter. In northern Wisconsin, my incoming well water is 46F year round!

 

[Highbeam]

Marathons can be bought with a few different element sizes. 3000, 3800, 4500, and a couple more. I thought the foam was only 2.5 inches but the big benefit is the plastic tank. No anode rod needed.

 

[kavvmxuh]

Make sure you have the most efficient water heater and wrap it with the blanket.

 

[Steevo]

I picked up the smaller unit at HD:

I think it is 27 gallon or something like that, runs on 240v, uses very little power and gives me enough hot water to clean things up in the shop sink without running out. I lowered the temp setting from the factory setting, until it was just barely too hot to hold your hand under it. I don't think it has added even $10 to the monthly electric bill.

 

[CamarosRus]

Steevo, Thanks for posting the picture. Is the "shop sink" next to the toilet or is that the bathroom sink only.
How far away is the shop sink ?? Could you please post a few more pics??

I do have options on placement but how far away (or close) should my shop stainless "restaurant" sink be to your Home Depot elec tank vs how close should the water heater be to the bathroom (shower and sink).
I may not need a bathroom sink and shop sink....just dont know whats best.

I found (your unit?) 30" $259 unit at the HD site..................
GE 30 Gal. Short 6 Year 4500 Watt Double Element 240 Volt Electric Water Heater
if same as yours above ??

 

[PatJ800]

Hopefully the PVC is just a sleeve through the slab and your gas line is not pulled through PVC conduit or something. If it is, then it is illegal and dangerous.

I am not going to do the math now, but I'm almost positive that even if you had 5 psi natural gas going to your shop (which is a more common industrial/commercial pressure) then you still wouldn't be able to run your 100k heater with 70' of 1/2" line. I would guess that entire installation was done under the table and off the books and should be looked in to for safety. Unless you have some kind of big natural gas pressure reducing valve in your shop, the heater isn't working correctly. If you do have such a PRV, post up a picture of the tag on it.

I would go with an electric water heater. My motorhome has a 6 gallon heater and I can take a shower just fine. A very small <10 gallon tank heater would probably do anything you'd ever want to do with a sink.

If you do go with a bigger heater then the timer was a very good idea. Set the heater to come on 2 hours before the time of day you are most likely to use it and shut it off for a few hours. Mechanical water heater times can be bought anywhere - probably even home depot.

 

[ddawg16]

aren't you people in seattle required to use solar water heaters?

A 'solar' water heater requires sunlight.....it's my understanding that Seattle does not get any sunlight.....but they do get plenty of rain.

I think Steevo has the right answer.....those small tanks are fine.....you can get a decent shower out of one...well, maybe a long navy shower....

 

[CamarosRus]

PatJ800,

You are probably correct about the PVC being only a sleeve going through the concrete.

I have found where the black iron pipe after meter goes into the soil and joins the yellow
CSST "piping" 6" on both sides of the CSST brass fitting to blk iron pipe is wrapped with some type of Black plastic tape with writing on it (???)

I found this on the Internet.................

Q. Can CSST be directly buried?
A. No, CSST cannot be installed underground in direct contact with the earth. When run underground or embedded in concrete, CSST should be routed through a nonmetallic, water-tight conduit.

[COLOR="[B]Blue"]It is my current conclusion that my CSST install was done incorrectly directly buried
in the soil and enters the shop via a PVC sleeve inserted in the concrete footing.....[/B]

Been this way since 2003. Even if I can locate original installing contractor dont know if I have any recourse. Concrete drive and walkways cover some of install area.[/COLOR]

 

[CamarosRus]

To say that Seattle (Western WA state) doesnt get any Sunlight is just a inept childish statement.

 

[Kevin C]

To say that Seattle (Western WA state) doesnt get any Sunlight is just a inept childish statement.

At least no one said you needed a solar hot water heater.

 

[Playwme]

Do you run your shop heater all the time? Why wouldn't a small gas water heater work when the main shop heater wasn't running?

 

[ddawg16]

To say that Seattle (Western WA state) doesnt get any Sunlight is just a inept childish statement.

Dude.....taking what I said as being serious is even more childish....I thought it was pretty obvious that I was 'trying' to be funny......

But.....just for the record.....

Temperature extremes are moderated by the adjacent Puget Sound, greater Pacific Ocean, and Lake Washington. The region is largely denied Pacific storms by the Olympic Mountains and Arctic air by the Cascade Range. Despite being on the margin of the rain shadow of the Olympic Mountains, the city has a reputation for frequent rain.[65] This reputation stems from the frequency of precipitation in the fall, winter, and spring. In an average year, at least 0.01 inches (0.25 mm) of precipitation falls on 152 days. It is cloudy 201 days out of the year and partly cloudy 93 days.[66] The location of official weather and climatic records, the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, is located about 19 km (12 miles) south of downtown in the city of SeaTac, and records more cloudy days and fewer partly cloudy days per year.[67] For this reason, official weather and climatic records may not accurately reflect the weather and climate conditions of the city proper.

So....according to the above....your covered by clouds over 2/3'rds of the time....

 

[Highbeam]

Hopefully the PVC is just a sleeve through the slab and your gas line is not pulled through PVC conduit or something. If it is, then it is illegal and dangerous.

I am not going to do the math now, but I'm almost positive that even if you had 5 psi natural gas going to your shop (which is a more common industrial/commercial pressure) then you still wouldn't be able to run your 100k heater with 70' of 1/2" line. I would guess that entire installation was done under the table and off the books and should be looked in to for safety. Unless you have some kind of big natural gas pressure reducing valve in your shop, the heater isn't working correctly. If you do have such a PRV, post up a picture of the tag on it.

I would go with an electric water heater.

You guys do realize that the pictured heater is an electric heater and was described that way as a 240 volt appliance. The PVC (or CPVC) that you see is the drain line from the PRV to the ground. The metal flex line is the power line.

 

[Highbeam]

To say that Seattle (Western WA state) doesnt get any Sunlight is just a inept childish statement.

Hey now, I've lived here my whole life and it rains pretty much every day and is generally dark all the time too. I have moss growing on my back.

Don't let out the secret that this place is quite awesome when the sun comes out.

 

[jvitez]

Why heat water all the time when you only want to wash up or clean things once is a while? Your situation is perfect for a tankless water heater. Now gas or electric? You really need to figure out exactly what the max btu/h delivery your current gas line can do. Check out NG tankless water heaters and see how many btu/h the smallest ones need. I bet your gas pipe is too small.

So next, how about electric. You have 80 amp service, which is 19,200 watts. Here's a tankless water heater that uses 9600 watts:

http://www.prowaterheatersupply.com...nt-of-use-electric-tankless-water-heater.html

You still have 9600 watts of power left to run everything else even when you're using water. That should be lots if you have NG heat. You won't be welding and washing at the same time in a one man shop. Use conduit to run your wires.

Your input water temp should be quite high in the Pacific NW, so you don't need monster power to heat up water like you would in North Dakota. I wouldn't heat water all the time just for occasional use.

 

[SteveCh]

Just a quick side-note to the solar heating thing: I built myself a solar water heating system last fall. So, I do not yet have a full year's experience with them. What I can say, though, with certainty, is that the water heating is greatly reduced with even a very thin haze in the sky. Full sun is the key. It is working fine for us, though there have been a few days during this winter when we could not shower, no big deal. [Good news is that we are good to shower or use whatever other hot water if we get even three hours or so of clear sky during the day.]

Solar is great; I doubt the OP would be happy with it up there in Seattle area.

 

[CamarosRus]

Do you run your shop heater all the time? Why wouldn't a small gas water heater work when the main shop heater wasn't running?

When the shop T-stat calls for heat and occasionally cycles on and off......
and then your using hot water at the shop sink, shower etc.........
is not that when there would be an issue when more than one gas appliance is calling for gas at same time ???

 

[jvitez]

is not that when there would be an issue when more than one gas appliance is calling for gas at same time ???

Exactly. That's why gas codes demand piping be sized so that every gas appliance installed on that service can be running a full capacity at the same time.

 

[CamarosRus]

FYI to all. CSST piping of which GASTITE is a popular brand .................

" shall not be buried directly in the ground or directly embedded in concrete. when neccessary to bury the tubing shall be routed INSIDE a non metallic, watertight conduit that has an inside diameter at least 1/2" larger than the OD of the tubing"

This from page 72 of the GASTITE INSTALL GUIDE

I may dig further but ISFAIK mine has been buried directly for 9 years now. Great News !!!!

 

[HotrodHR]

I picked up the smaller unit at HD:

I think it is 27 gallon or something like that, runs on 240v, uses very little power and gives me enough hot water to clean things up in the shop sink without running out. I lowered the temp setting from the factory setting, until it was just barely too hot to hold your hand under it. I don't think it has added even $10 to the monthly electric bill.

Steevo... it looks like you could have mounted your water heater on top of your restroom. Had one done like that in an old shop I rented.