garage breaker in house keeps tripping

[eric565]

Hello!
I'm having issues with my garage breaker. The power in my garage will stay on for about 3-4 days and then will trip the breaker in my house, which will kill the power to the whole house. It has done this ever since I bought the house in June 2012. The garage breaker in my panel in the house is a 2 pole 30 amp. Out in the garage, there was a fuse box with a 20 amp fuse.

Once the problem persisted, I replaced the old fuse box in the garage with a breaker box and one 20 amp breaker. This did not do the trick - after 3-4 days, the breaker in the house still trips and my power goes out. The breaker on the panel in the garage does not trip.

I have tried new breakers, so unless I have extremely bad luck, I'm pretty sure I don't have a faulty breaker. Since the breaker in the garage doesn't trip (only the breaker for the garage in the house), is there a problem in the wiring from my garage to the house rather than something in the garage causing the surge? On the garage circuit, I have a garage door opener, outside light, 5 outlets, 1 flouresent light and 4 light bulbs. Do I need something more than a 2 pole 30 amp breaker in the house panel?

Thank you for any suggestions!

 

[pattenp]

I'm not following.... are you saying the main breaker to the whole house trips or the breaker in the house panel that feeds the garage panel trips. I don't understand the power being cut to the whole house.

 

[eric565]

the breaker in the house panel that feeds the garage panel trips, yet the power to the whole house goes out. the main breaker does not trip, but the power will come back on if i manually trip it.

 

[Teken]

the breaker in the house panel that feeds the garage panel trips, yet the power to the whole house goes out. the main breaker does not trip, but the power will come back on if i manually trip it.

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense! Would you please take the panel cover off, and take a picture of the service panel for us.

Teken . . .

 

[eric565]

hopefully this works. i've attached a picture of the panel in the house. you'll see the garage breaker is the only one tripped. main breaker still on. this is the configuration when the power goes out. not sure how...

 

[Teken]

hopefully this works. i've attached a picture of the panel in the house. you'll see the garage breaker is the only one tripped. main breaker still on. this is the configuration when the power goes out. not sure how...

OK, just so I am clear on this. Your house has a 30 amp dual pole breaker which feeds a garage panel.

This garage panel is protected by a 20/30 amp breaker? 3-4 days goes by and something on that circuit is tripping the houses *dedicated* 30 amp breaker?

When this happens, it also kills the power to the *entire home* yet never trips the mains?

Are the other breakers in the on position when this occurs? Do you simply reset the house breaker and this restores the power to the entire home?

What circuits are impacted by this service outage? Please reply with specifics like the fridge, all lights / plugs in the home, microwave, etc etc are dead.

Teken . . .

 

[Teken]

I would remove the actual cover and see what the other side of the breaker is tied too. Do you have 240 in the garage?

Teken . . .

 

[Gary S]

I would remove the actual cover and see what the other side of the breaker is tied too. Do you have 240 in the garage?

Teken . . .

I agree. You need to look inside and see how it is wired. If things were wired correctly, this won't happen.

 

[Teken]

I agree. You need to look inside and see how it is wired. If things were wired correctly, this won't happen.

I am going to take a wild stab and say he will find that the other side of the 120 feed is powering *some* electrical circuits in his home.

Not all . . .

I have seen those breakers which allow a person to install more than one circuit into the breaker. Maybe this is one possible reason, but no one in their right mind would tie all the critical systems into one breaker.

Teken . . .

 

[eric565]

i'm a total n00b when it comes to wiring. i'm not sure what's in the garage or what you mean by "the 120 feed powering *some* electrical circuits in the home. i can take the panel off and snap a picture. i'll post back with what i find.

 

[eric565]

not sure if this will help at all.

 

[Teken]

i'm a total n00b when it comes to wiring. i'm not sure what's in the garage or what you mean by "the 120 feed powering *some* electrical circuits in the home. i can take the panel off and snap a picture. i'll post back with what i find.

First the main service panel is full. Next, the dual pole breaker can feed either 120 volts, or 240 volts.

1. Do you have any 240 volt devices or heating in the garage?

2. Right now I am simply guessing that it may be possible that since your service panel is full. Someone has decided to use one side of the breaker to provide power (120 VAC) to other circuits in the home.

3. There are certain type of breakers that have 4 poles. Which allow a person to literally add in four branch circuits into the two breaker slots. I am guessing that might be one scenario.

Another which is illegal and unsafe is where a person would simply stick in another circuit under the single tap screw.

Not likely, but than again I have seen stranger things!

4. Turn all the items in your home on. Remove the breaker cover to the panel. Turn the dual pole breaker off and ask your wife / kids to confirm if everything is still on.

If not than you have your answer . . .

Teken . . .

 

[eric565]

with the dual pole breaker for the garage off (like it is in the pictures) everything in the house is still on. i tested all lights, outlets, appliances, etc.

in the garage, the only device out there is the door opener. on the back of the opener, it says 120 vac. the garage is not heated.

 

[Teken]

with the dual pole breaker for the garage off (like it is in the pictures) everything in the house is still on. i tested all lights, outlets, appliances, etc.

in the garage, the only device out there is the door opener. on the back of the opener, it says 120 vac. the garage is not heated.

OK, tell me exactly what you do to restore power to the home. Once this electrical situation occurs.

Teken . . .

 

[GMBracing]

you say you must cycle the main breaker to get the power back on in the house?
if so the main breaker must be in the tripped posistion when this hsppens, what is the main breaker rating? (can't read in pics)

 

[eric565]

OK, tell me exactly what you do to restore power to the home. Once this electrical situation occurs.

Teken . . .

i turn the main breaker off and then on. the main breaker never actually trips; just the dual 30 for the garage, yet the whole house goes dark. this happened last night around 4am. the time before was just this past saturday. since last night, i have kept the breaker off and will keep it off until i need to get in the garage. there is no side door to the garage so the only way in is the garage door, which is powered by the opener... which is annoying and the main reason i want to get this resolved.

 

[Teken]

i turn the main breaker off and then on. the main breaker never actually trips; just the dual 30 for the garage, yet the whole house goes dark. this happened last night around 4am. the time before was just this past saturday. since last night, i have kept the breaker off and will keep it off until i need to get in the garage. there is no side door to the garage so the only way in is the garage door, which is powered by the opener... which is annoying and the main reason i want to get this resolved.

OK, so if you leave this dual pole breaker in the off position nothing ever happens?

Ever?

What is the rating on the main breaker? Also have you tried to trace where the two black and red power feeds go to?

One thing I would do once you killed power to the main panel is tighten down all connections in that panel just for good measure. Are you sure this 30 amp breaker isn't feeding something else in the home no matter how remote?

Teken . . .

 

[theoldwizard1]

Need pictures of the inside of the breaker box in the garage.

 

[eric565]

OK, so if you leave this dual pole breaker in the off position nothing ever happens?

Ever?

What is the rating on the main breaker? Also have you tried to trace where the two black and red power feeds go to?

One thing I would do once you killed power to the main panel is tighten down all connections in that panel just for good measure. Are you sure this 30 amp breaker isn't feeding something else in the home no matter how remote?

Teken . . .

nothing ever happens with the dual pole breaker off. i've had this off for as long as 3 months.

main breaker shows 100.

i've tightened all connections per your suggestion. i'm positive that the 30 amp breaker is not feeding anything but the garage. the black, white and red wires run out of the box and straight outside. these 3 wires are completely isolated.

is it possible that the outside wires between the garage and the house are damaged? if they are, i'm not sure what would have caused it since the problem seems to have existed before we moved in.

 

[GMBracing]

need pics of the garage box insides, there is only one breaker out there?
need to see where the red/black wires go are the red and black connected together in the garage box?

 

[Teken]

need pics of the garage box insides, there is only one breaker out there?
need to see where the red/black wires go

I agree, also please trace the wires all the way to visually inspect the integrity of the wires insulation.

There is something not adding up here . . .

Teken . . .

 

[CNGsaves]

I agree, also please trace the wires all the way to visually inspect the integrity of the wires insulation.

There is something not adding up here . . .Teken . . .

What about short in the wire between garage and house?? I'd start at LB where feed goes into garage if there is a sharp edge that might be cutting through due to settling of the buried conduit. Possible??

 

[RustFarmer]

you say you must cycle the main breaker to get the power back on in the house?
if so the main breaker must be in the tripped posistion when this hsppens

+1 ..

 

[pattenp]

If you are turning the main breaker off and back on to restore the power then the main breaker has tripped. On some breakers it is hard to tell they have tripped because the handle does not move much at all to the off position.

i turn the main breaker off and then on. the main breaker never actually trips; just the dual 30 for the garage, yet the whole house goes dark. this happened last night around 4am. the time before was just this past saturday. since last night, i have kept the breaker off and will keep it off until i need to get in the garage. there is no side door to the garage so the only way in is the garage door, which is powered by the opener... which is annoying and the main reason i want to get this resolved.

 

[Joe Reed]

Yep....your Main breaker IS tripping....that's why you're losing power to the house. It's just not kicking the switch lever far enough over that you notice that it's tripped. When you switch it off and on again you're simply resetting it. That still doesn't explain why something trips the 30A breaker..and still also trips the 100A main....

 

[Aceman]

I'll take a stab at it. You most likely have a dead short in the underground feed to the garage. The breaker feeding the garage trips as well as the main. The main breaker handle stays stuck in the on position though. It's not uncommon to find tripped breakers, not actually in the trip position.

You need to hire an electrician that owns a megger to check the feeder to the garage. You'll most likely need to run new wire out there.

 

[eric565]

thanks everyone for the replies. i'll see if i can get some better pictures tomorrow - there's still a lot of snow out back between the house and the garage. i'll try to inspect anything outside with my un-trained eyes. i may just call the electrician tomorrow as well.

 

[pattenp]

Is the wire to the garage have a outer sheath or is it individual wires in conduit? I've seen some of the older NM wire used before underground in conduit and it shorted because of standing water in the conduit.

 

[justsam]

I think you have two issue here. Some where there is a short in the garage feed as many have already stated.

I suspect your main 100 Amp breaker is weak and is trippiing before it should. Clearly the 30 Amp breaker serving the garage should be all that trips.

I think you will wind up replacing the 100 Amp, it will not fix your short, but will stop taking out the whole house.

 

[StayThirsty]

do you own a electrical meter? while the power is off to the 230 garage breaker. check for continuity between the red and black wires and also between red and ground, and black and ground. if it beeps you have a bad wire and it will need replaced. If not, like mentioned above, have an electrician meg-ohm your wire and that will tell you for sure.

everything ive read points to this. a 2 pole 30 amp short would (in my opinion) trip a main breaker.

Good luck! oh and how about a picture of your garage panel?

 

[djjsr]

i'm a total n00b when it comes to wiring.

Despite some good advice posted here, I suggest you stay out of the box. Just shut off the breaker to the garage and wait for an electrician to fix your problem.

Electricity has the potential to kill you or burn your house down.

 

[madosta]

This is worse than the hotdog thread. Please keep us updated.

 

[Teken]

This is worse than the hotdog thread. Please keep us updated.

Teken . . .

 

[Alchymist]

do you own a electrical meter? while the power is off to the 230 garage breaker. check for continuity between the red and black wires and also between red and ground, and black and ground. if it beeps you have a bad wire and it will need replaced. If not, like mentioned above, have an electrician meg-ohm your wire and that will tell you for sure.

everything ive read points to this. a 2 pole 30 amp short would (in my opinion) trip a main breaker.

Good luck! oh and how about a picture of your garage panel?

A 2 pole 30 amp breaker even with a direct short should NOT trip a 100 amp main. If it does, the 100 amp main is bad.

 

[Teken]

One way to narrow the problem if you have no testing equipment other than a basic multimeter (and you are sure that you have nothing 240v coming off the garage feed breaker in the house) is to turn off the entire house main and the garage feed breaker completely and remove one of the two wires from it, the black OR the red. Then bend the free wire out of the way so that it is safe from a short or hazard and then turn the main breaker only back on. Test to see if the unhooked wire has any voltage being back fed through it somehow which would indicate interaction with another house circuit somehow. If there is nothing then turn the garage circuit back on as well and test the loose wire again. If there is any voltage then you most likely have at least a partial short between the black and red somewhere in the garage.

As soon as you are done testing this cap off the loose wire and leave the whole thing as is and see if the problem ever occurs again. If it does not happen again you now know it is an issue with the wire that you unhooked only or an interaction issue between the two hot wires when they are both hot at the same time. You can then shut off the garage feed breaker and the main house breaker again, put the free wire back on the breaker and instead remove the other one and repeat the entire test again to further troubleshoot. If after testing everything over again with the other wire removed from the breaker you again have no further issue with breakers tripping over time you now know that the individual wired circuits are completely fine on their own but you have a short of some sort between the two hots (black and red in the garage somewhere) when they are both hot at the same time and you need to find that problem. If the symptoms do continue with one wire attached, but they do not occur with only the other wire attached then you now know that the issue is only with the one circuit that was hooked up at the time of the problem and it is not an interaction issue between the two circuits at all. If this procedure is followed you can eliminate other house circuit interaction as being an issue, you can eliminate shorting between the two hot wires as being an issue, and you can narrow the problem down to just the black or red wire before ever having to open a single other box to find the issue.

It is not uncommon for an intermittent short of some sort to trip the main without it looking tripped as others have mentioned and that is most likely what is happening here causing your whole house to go dark.

I had to go this route three years ago. Worked like a charm and did aid in determining where the fault was.

Teken . . .

 

[eric565]

thanks again everyone for the replies. i appreciate all the suggestions, but i think i should stay out of the box. i was crossing my fingers that there was a simple solution i was missing but it's definitely electrician time. i'll make sure to post back with the results.

 

[Alchymist]

It will if the 100 amp main has a faster reaction time to a short than the 30 amp breaker does which is actually a fairly common occurrence. We are talking milliseconds here and all breakers are a little different. It just means that when the short or problem occurs it is in excess of 100 amps for an instant causing the main to trip before the 30 amp breaker had time to react (and trip itself to protect the main) but the 30 amp breaker still recognizes the issue and trips anyways a few milliseconds later, but by then it is too late. The only other option is that the main is tripping too easily and needs to be replaced, but that can usually be checked by just turning on your dryer, all the stove burners, the oven, etc at the same time and seeing if it trips the house main (it shouldn't).

Part in red should not be "common"

Read this, specifically page 22:
http://www.pdhengineer.com/courses/e/E-4013.pdf


If it were a 70 amp breaker fully short circuited, it might be possible, but a 30, shouldn't happen. And you don't hear many complaints at all. If it were a common occurrance .... it would be fixed already.

 

[djjsr]

It will if the 100 amp main has a faster reaction time to a short than the 30 amp breaker does which is actually a fairly common occurrence.

Just curious. Are you a licensed electrician?

 

[Nostraquedeo]

Just to be clear, you have 240 volts going to the garage, a panel out there and then one 20amp breaker serving all the loads mentioned? What brand/style panel did you install in the garage? Did you post a picture of the garage panel interior yet?

 

[Hanger]

Sounds like a similar problem I had in my previous house a few years back. Turned out to be a short in the wiring between house a garage.