So sick of arc fault breakers

[RedAggie03]

I've had issues with my arc fault breakers in my new home since the day we moved in. The builder has been great and has had his electricians out a number of times troubleshooting the issue. The issue occurs in the upstairs and downstairs living rooms mostly.

Here is what has been done so far:

• checked ground to the box
• checked feeds / ground lugs in the breaker box
• replaced AFCI's (twice now)
• pulled every plug, switch, and fixture and tested / rewired
• pulled all can lights and checked for correct wiring / pinched wires

Long story short, I've narrowed it down to my plasma TV's. If I put NOTHING connected it seems to stay solid. If I turn on the TV / Roku it will play for a while and trip. I read some on the internet and some say that surge protectors can cause it, but it will trip with it plugged directly in. I put the TV on an extension cord and plugged it into the bedroom plug (never has tripped) and it tripped it after a few hours. Never right away. I also tried a TrippLite 4 plug surge box with a RFI filter which I read worked for treadmills. No luck, still tripped. I does seem to stay on longer if I plug the tv into a heavy duty 25' extension cord. I thought it fixed it for a while, but it finally tripped today after having the tv on most of the day. ugh.

So I really don't want to replace both of my TV's to fix the issue, but is there something else I can do???? Are AFCI's required in the living room? I know I can replace it with a regular breaker, but it won't be to code I don't believe. What else could I do?

 

[frankush]

I wish I could be of help, but I know of nothing other than running a non AFCI protected circuit for just the TV's. Just think, there is lots of talk about making every outlet in the house AFCI protected. AFCI's are not required in the living room.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

IIRCC, AFCIs are only required in bedrooms but i don't have my NEC code book on me at the moment to check!

 

[Cryptic1911]

just get a small battery backup to plug them into. They will do some filtering, and act as a buffer between live ac power and the tv.

 

[familytruckster]

I'm told by my electrician that new upcoming nec requires all non gfi circuits to be arc fault. could be wrong but that would make a $300 panel now $3,000. If it is so I imagine there will be a lot of push back.

 

[Norcal]

Since the 2008 edition of the NEC, AFCI's have been required everywhere but where GFCI's are required. GFCI's are req. in kitchens, baths, & garages & outdoor receptacles.


My personal opinion is that AFCI's are snake oil. If GFCI's were required everywhere I would have no objection, they are a proven safety device, are cheap, & are reliable.

 

[Gooch]

Replace breaker with normal one, hang on to AFCI for when you sell the house.

 

[Coolerman]

I built a new log home last year and it has these AFCI breakers. The electricians pulled their hair out trying to track down why three of them were tripping. In two cases they found where the finishing carpenter had penetrated the wire with a nail. (A log home has no wiring in the logs except for outlets that are pre-drilled as the home is constructed. A lot of wiring, especially for ceiling lights, runs under finish trim.) The last remaining case is in the living room where we have 12 beam mounted Halogen spots lamps that total about 600 watts. When those lights have been on for about two hours, the breaker trips. Don't turn those on, and there is no issue. I will have to see if the TV is on when the lights are on. We rarely use those lights as they pull so much power.

How would a modern LED or plasma TV make an AFCI think there was an arc?

 

[Jbullfrog]

Plasmas are well known for tripping Arc Faults. The large amount of capacitors in them means they are always charged.

 

[madosta]

Just take your plasmas apart and install a couple Quencharc.

What's the refresh rate of the TV?

What kind of panel/breakers?

 

[Coolerman]

Plasmas are well known for tripping Arc Faults. The large amount of capacitors in them means they are always charged.

Ahhh forgot that large power supply caps would have high, though short duration current spikes. That could easily trip the AFCI...
I will now try unplugging my TV while the Halogen lights are on to see if it trips...

 

[RedAggie03]

Just take your plasmas apart and install a couple Quencharc.

What's the refresh rate of the TV?

What kind of panel/breakers?

The downstairs TV is a HP 50" 1080i - probably 6 years old. I don't know the refresh rate, I'd guess 600? I think the plasmas are fast right?

The panel / breakers are GE.

Thanks for the help.

 

[aandpdan]

There are diagnostic tools your electrician could use, Siemens makes them, but it seem like the TV is the problem. There are also filters you could put in line with your TV.

I've had AFCI breakers for years and have had no trips.

 

[RedAggie03]

Info on said filters?

 

[aandpdan]

Here's one:

http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?sku=70185571

The assumption is that the plasma TV is causing a form of RFI on the circuit.

 

[Tscott]

I'd be curious to know exactly how many injuries or deaths these breakers have prevented. Seems to me it's a solution to a problem that never really existed.

Tom

 

[Big-Foot]

Just about anything with an electric motor will trip them too - but I have been told that some of those breakers are more sensitive than others.... The new owner of a home I just sold was pissed at me because his roommates treadmill kept popping the breaker... I told him to try a surge protector or maybe a new roommate!

 

[JF5000]

RedAggie03, just out of curiosity who is your electric panel made by? Square D, GE, Bryant for example. I ask this because I wonder if the manufacture design may be an issue.

 

[rockwithjason]

I'd be curious to know exactly how many injuries or deaths these breakers have prevented. Seems to me it's a solution to a problem that never really existed.

Tom

i just attended my annual code update training and they showed a slide on it. the issue they acted on was not injuries it was residential fires. i don't recall the exact numbers but a significant number of house fires were attributed to arcing faults.

 

[Norcal]

i just attended my annual code update training and they showed a slide on it. the issue they acted on was not injuries it was residential fires. i don't recall the exact numbers but a significant number of house fires were attributed to arcing faults.

The problem is that AFCI's are installed in new homes, fires are more likely in older homes and when the newer crop of homes age wonder how the AFCI's will function as they age?????

 

[frankush]

i just attended my annual code update training and they showed a slide on it. the issue they acted on was not injuries it was residential fires. i don't recall the exact numbers but a significant number of house fires were attributed to arcing faults.

Outlets hiding behind the bed. Fault occurs in the receptacle and the bedding goes up in smoke. That was the original thinking and the reason why AFCI's were required in bedrooms only.

 

[RedAggie03]

JF5000, I have a GE panel and breakers.

I already tried this TrippLite, it's supposed to have a RFI filter, but it did not help.

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISOBAR4ULTRA-Isobar-Protector/dp/tech-data/B0000513O4/ref=de_a_smtd

I'll try something else. For now I have an extension cord running across my living room to the kitchen GFCI breaker

 

[RedAggie03]

Just take your plasmas apart and install a couple Quencharc.

What's the refresh rate of the TV?

What kind of panel/breakers?

Here's one:

http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?sku=70185571

The assumption is that the plasma TV is causing a form of RFI on the circuit.

How would I hook something like this up??

 

[aandpdan]

You'd have to find a box to put it in. Basically wire it in line to the TV.

Just a thought. Do you know someone with AFCI breakers of a different brand in their house where you could, temporarily, plug the TV in? I know it's awkward but some brands of AFCI's ****. Check the dates on the ones in your panel. There have been changes in them and older ones are prone to false tripping. AFCI's are basically a small computer.

Your electricians should get on the phone to GE and badger them to find a solution. This is not your problem but everyone is making it out to be yours.

 

[Higgins]

Are there any homes in your area that were built at the same time as yours? Are they having the same problems? Could you take your TV to a neighbors house and see what happens???

AL

 

[mrpowderkeg]

I have the same problem in my house. The vacuum trips the AFI breakers. So the solution is to plug into the kitchen outlets as they are GFI. But our cord does not reach all the way into the areas we need to clean. Upstairs we have to plug into the bathroom outlets. I have successfully been able to use the AFI outlets but I have to turn off all other draws on that circuit, even then it's a 50% chance it will not trip, once the vac is running I do not dare shut it off. Talk about frustrating. I'd love to wire in one outlet not on a AFI somewhere where my vacuum would be the only thing that is ever plugged into it. At lease I could clean the whole house in a matter that I am not constantly fighting safety devices. Oh the vac is new too, our old one did the same thing.

 

[aandpdan]

Powderkeg, what brand panel do you have?

 

[RedAggie03]

Take my TV to a neighbors house? Really?

Yeah, it's the electricians problem. I'm just trying to keep him from going into the walls if we don't have to.

 

[ddawg16]

I'm doing a 2-story addition....I have to AFIC's in the bedrooms....

Upstairs in the new master bedroom I have had my compound miter saw for about 9 months now running off that AFIC...

I have yet to trip any of my AFIC's....miter saw...shop vac....drills...etc. ZERO issues.

In the case of the master bedroom...the outlet I'm using is about 5 boxes down...so it's going through lots of wire nuts to get to the saw....

Once again...ZERO issues.

One question to the OP....when the electrician wired up your outlets....did he back stab? Use pig tails? Or did he use the outlet as the connection point?

This is how mine are wired up....ignore the 'way too long' leads....it was a temp measure to illustrate how they are wired. Basically, the outlet chain is wire nutted....and the outlet connects via the pig tail. That way, a failure in the outlet does not shut down the who string....and once it's installed...if I pull out the outlet...I'm only pulling out the pigtail and not the whole mess.

 

[RedAggie03]

I'm not sure, thanks for the info - I'll check tonight.

 

[JF5000]

ddawg16 Excellent point!! Pig tails are the way to go! Redaggie03 said he was using GE panel. What type of panel are you using ddawg16?

 

[ddawg16]

Square D Home series (was only $10 more than the Murray...and built a whole lot better). Breakers are SD as well.

This is an old pic.....now that I'm about done with the wiring I'm starting to clean up the inside....

 

[aandpdan]

Take my TV to a neighbors house? Really?

Yeah, really. Since it seems that only your TV causes the problem lets eliminate that by trying another brand AFCI.

 

[James-W]

But our cord does not reach all the way into the areas we need to clean.

Not trying to be flip about this, but when we want to vacuum in an area where the cord isn't long enough, we use a heavy duty extension cord. Perhaps that would work for you too.

 

[JF5000]

Square D Home series (was only $10 more than the Murray...and built a whole lot better). Breakers are SD as well.

This is an old pic.....now that I'm about done with the wiring I'm starting to clean up the inside....

Nice Panel! Any issues similar to what Redaggie03 is going through?

 

[ddawg16]

Nice Panel! Any issues similar to what Redaggie03 is going through?

No issues.....

As I said....I've been running my saws, drills, etc off two different AFCI's....no issues.

 

[Steves32]

Can someone explain the difference between AFCI & GFCI?

When I had my plans for my garage drawn up- the architect spec'd AFCI on the plans.
Came back as a correction from plan check to use GFCI in a garage.
When the inspector came out during the wiring phase- he told me to have all the outlets on GFCI except for the ones for roll up garage door & the TV.
Never understood why- just did as I was told.
Both those outlets were 6 ft off the floor so no real danger of using them for something else.

 

[aandpdan]

Can someone explain the difference between AFCI & GFCI?

GFCI's look for an imbalance in the current between the line and neutral.

AFCI's look for arcs. The problem is, they need to know what is an OK arc, like in a motor with a brush or a bad arc, a short. They analyze the flow of current.

 

[JF5000]

No issues.....

As I said....I've been running my saws, drills, etc off two different AFCI's....no issues.

Thanks ddawg16 that is good know. I used to work for Westinghouse back years ago. We built panels, load centers, and motor control panels. The one thing I learned quickly was that engineering is everything. We specially built the electrical equipment for the electrical renovation of the Statue of Liberty. It was top notch design and manufacturing. It is on this note that I would like to bring to the surface what I think Redaggie03 problem might be. First of all let’s look at Squared D. In the commercial and industrial world Squared D reigns supreme. Unlike Square D, GE and Siemens key focus are in other industries. Square D decided to further their residential market with an affordable series called the Homeline series. Square D has been able to offset the cost of their Homeline products with profits from their other products which dominate their own markets. This means the home owner can buy a Square D product that price –wise can easily compete with other home panel manufacturers. And yet the home owner gets a better engineered and manufactured product. Square D is the Standard to achieve.

Now Let’s talk About Nuisance Tripping of AFCI's

Nuisance tripping refers to a circuit breaker or an AFCI that trips off, turning off electrical power when there was no apparent reason to do so. Some sources assert that what appears to be "nuisance tripping" of AFCI's actually occurs due to wiring practices of some electricians more than for any other reason. These include

Reversed hot and neutral wires - reversed polarity - which is an unsafe condition.

Shared neutral wiring on single pole circuit breaker circuits: this is already an existing problem with GFCI's on multiwire branch circuits.

Incorrect or accidental connections between the ground and neutral wire: this is also an unsafe condition which can permit live current to flow on a ground wire that should normally never carry current.

Using stab-locks on the back of receptacles as opposed to using pig-tails. (ddawg16 you’re dead-on about this)

Normal arcing in appliances: Nuisance tripping that could occur from the normal arcing that occurs in some appliances (such as a vacuum cleaner motor) has been considered in the design of the AFCI circuit. The AFCI is designed to tell the difference between this ordinary arcing and the type of arcing in a circuit that may cause a fire.

It is the last category that I think is a key factor in Redaagi03’s problem. My perception is the engineering of the GE AFCI breakers he is using my not be able to tell the difference between this ordinary arcing and the type of arcing in a circuit that may cause a fire.

Recommendation at this point is to pig-tail, as you suggested. If the problem is not solved….

Kill the main breaker. Ohm each feeder with its neutral and ground, by this I mean turn off the breaker, remove the feeder from the breaker. Then remove the neutral and ground from their bus bars. Ensure there is nothing plugged into any of the receptacles on the circuit. Now ohm the feeder with the neutral, then feeder with the ground. Now ohm the neutral with the ground. There should be no reading. If there is locate the problem and correct. If the problem is not solved….

Consider a new panel. Good luck!!!

 

[mrpowderkeg]

Powderkeg, what brand panel do you have?

I have a Siemens panel, takes the QP seimons breakers, the arc fault ones have type QAF on them (I suppose for q Arc Fault)