Panel questions, new install.

[orange02ss]

I am completely redoing the electrical in a building that I am renovating. All the previous electrical was stolen. I have had two different opinions (from "experts") on how the wiring in the box is suppose to be. I am no electrician, so I want someone who knows what they are doing to give me the correct info. All the rest of the electrical I checked and is to code.

I was first told that it didn't matter if the neutral and grounds were put on the same buses, we wired it up with the grounds on the bottom of the buses and the neutrals in line with the breakers.

I was then told that all the grounds and neutrals should be separated (pictured below). I did that but I had already cut everything to go in the other way so it is not very clean.

Which way is it suppose to be?

Outside meter box and service disconnect. This is all to spec according to the info from my electrical provider.

 

[Stuart in MN]

The only place the neutral and ground should be connected to each other is at the service disconnect point, which in your case is on the outside of the building. At the panelboard inside the building they should be separate, make sure the neutral bar in the panel is electrically isolated from ground.

 

[orange02ss]

The only place the neutral and ground should be connected to each other is at the service disconnect point, which in your case is on the outside of the building. At the panelboard inside the building they should be separate, make sure the neutral bar in the panel is electrically isolated from ground.

If you notice on the bottom, both buses are connected together. Ground wire comes in on the left, neutral on the right.

 

[Norcal]

The line & load wiring on the meter socket is bass ackwards, & the grounding & grounded (neutrals) conductors are bonded together.

 

[orange02ss]

The line & load wiring on the meter socket is bass ackwards, & the grounding & grounded (neutrals) conductors are bonded together.

What exactly is backwards on the meter socket? And are you talking about the panel box when you say the grounding & grounded are bonded together? They are connected on the bottom. That's why I posted an enlarged pic as Stuart said they should be isolated???

 

[Norcal]

What exactly is backwards on the meter socket? And are you talking about the panel box when you say the grounding & grounded are bonded together?

The load wiring on that meter can goes on the bottom lugs, line on the top.

Use a ground bar kit instead of the neutral bar & it should clean up OK, if the bar between the split neutral is removed & the grounding conductors are left in place, the panel will need to be bonded to the bar, having the split neutral bar means the neutral can be landed under the breaker suppling that circuit, which is the #1 reason I suggest a ground bar kit, and on another note, check your PoCo regs, they may not allow that grounding conductor in the meter can.

 

[MrMark]

that bond on the subpanel shouldn't be there. Big no no as posted above.

You want them isolated after the service disconnect so you have an independent ground fault path all the way back to the service disconnect.

I believe what Norcal is stating is that the Service Providers wires should be landed on the top of that meter socket and the load wires should come off the bottom. Didn't it come with a diagram?

I also question that bond of the meter socket to the ground. Why is that wire there?

 

[orange02ss]

Ok,I see the now that the meter wires should be on the bottom. I will check the diagram. I think he thought it was that way because its a ground service.

This is why the meter socket has the wire to the neutral bar.

If PVC conduit is used through the wall
between the meter base and the service disconnect then the
grounding conductor must be attached to the neutral bar in the
service disconnect.

 

[orange02ss]

that bond on the subpanel shouldn't be there. Big no no as posted above.

Which are you referring to here? Sorry, im electrically incompetent! Is this the ground from the CB panel inside (left side) to the service disconnect on the outside?

 

[MrMark]

that bar across the bottom of the subpanel that connects the neutral bar to the ground bar

that is part of a double neutral bar. You need to get rid of that bar.

You could simply eliminate the tie bar and bond the left bar to the box making it a proper ground buss bar. Remember neutral bars float so that they are not touching the metal on the can.

Norcal is suggesting you get a proper ground bar kit to replace that left side neutral bar. The ground bar screws straight into the can.

 

[Norcal]

Ok,I see the now that the meter wires should be on the bottom. I will check the diagram. I think he thought it was that way because its a ground service.

This is why the meter socket has the wire to the neutral bar.

If PVC conduit is used through the wall
between the meter base and the service disconnect then the
grounding conductor must be attached to the neutral bar in the
service disconnect.

That grounding conductor to the meter can has nothing to do w/ that. It needs to go....

 

[orange02ss]

[/B]


That grounding conductor to the meter can has nothing to do w/ that. It needs to go....

OK, ill pull it out.

 

[orange02ss]

that bar across the bottom of the subpanel that connects the neutral bar to the ground bar

that is part of a double neutral bar. You need to get rid of that bar.

You could simply eliminate the tie bar and bond the left bar to the box making it a proper ground buss bar. Remember neutral bars float so that they are not touching the metal on the can.

Norcal is suggesting you get a proper ground bar kit to replace that left side neutral bar. The ground bar screws straight into the can.

Ok, I understand now, why did it come with it attached like that?

 

[MrMark]

I don't know, but perhaps to allow it to be used with a main disconnect as service equipment.

Is there some place on those two neutral bars for a green bonding screw to be inserted to bond the can as if it were being used as service equipment?

Who put that meter socket in?

It is screwed up but I like those bushings.

You need the bushing in your subpanel too. But, to retrofit that would be a pain. Don't sweat it. 99 percent of them don't have the bushings, although I understand they are code.

 

[orange02ss]

 

[orange02ss]

I don't know, but perhaps to allow it to be used with a main disconnect as service equipment.

Is there some place on those two neutral bars for a green bonding screw to be inserted to bond the can as if it were being used as service equipment?

Who put that meter socket in?

It is screwed up but I like those bushings.

You need the bushing in your subpanel too. But, to retrofit that would be a pain. Don't sweat it. 99 percent of them don't have the bushings, although I understand they are code.

I will check if there is a place for it.

I put the boxes in but I didn't do the wiring.

Didn't notice that the bushing in the panel wasn't there, dang!

 

[MrMark]

I will check if there is a place for it.

I put the boxes in but I didn't do the wiring.

Didn't notice that the bushing in the panel wasn't there, dang!

whoever did the wiring was a nincompoop!

You don't want that green screw inserted if there is a place for it. That is only for SERVICE EQUIPMENT. Your panel is not being used as service equipment, it is just a panelboard. Your service equipment is outside with the main disconnect. It was just a curiosity in response to your question.

 

[orange02ss]

That's why I posted it, there were allot of questions as it was bieng installed. I had one person doing it one way and another A different way. Anything else you guys see that needs to be addresed?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why don't u take new pics of all 3-meter socket, disconnect and load center, and post 'em here. That way we can see if everything is now correct.

As a recap, there should only be 3 wires coming from the meter socket going to the disconnect, 4 between disconnect and loadcenter and either a NEW ground bar bonded/screwed into the panel enclosure with the smaller EGC/grounding conductor going to the new bar or the tie bar on the bottom removed between the 2 bars and a bonding screw or strap connecting/bonding the left bar to the panel enclosure AND any neutral wires removed and connected onto the right bar!

 

[orange02ss]

Thanks everyone for your help!

Here are some updated pics. Inspector came by and just wanted a couple things changed. He wanted a certain hub on the top of the service disconnect, he also wanted the wire size from the service disconnect to the meter changed.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What size wire did u have before and what size did u change it to? What size is the service?

 

[orange02ss]

200Amp service. He wanted 3/0 wire. I had thought that 2/0 was larger so I used that, didn't realize it swapped around on the thicker wire.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The ground bar is on the left. Remove the tie bar across the bottom, and replace the screws after you remove it.

The ground bar is recognized by the small size wire connector at the top of it, compared to the neutral bar on the right. The Ground bar should have either a green screw run thru it and then thru the back of the panelboard. You would remove the appropriate screw in the bar in front of the prepunched hole, or it would use a round to flat copper piece that attaches to one of the holes in the ground bar and is screwed thru a prepunched hole in the back of the panelboard. The instructions should show this and which method is used.

The neutral bar should be completely isolated from the panel board.

Ok, I understand now, why did it come with it attached like that?

As Mark noted, the panel can be used as a service disconnect, in which case it needs the tie bar, or it can be used as a subpanel (your installation) and in that case, the bar is not needed. Electrical products are made very versatile and universal to keep cost and product inventory down. They expect you to throw some pieces away when you are finished.

Charles

 

[orange02ss]

Forgot to post a pic of the panel. I did pull the tie bar off the bottom.

 

[Norcal]

200Amp service. He wanted 3/0 wire. I had thought that 2/0 was larger so I used that, didn't realize it swapped around on the thicker wire.

3/0 is the correct size for a non-residential service, for a residential service meeting the requirements of table 310.15(B)(6) then 2/0 is permitted, the inspector was right.

 

[orange02ss]

The ground bar is recognized by the small size wire connector at the top of it, compared to the neutral bar on the right. The Ground bar should have either a green screw run thru it and then thru the back of the panelboard. You would remove the appropriate screw in the bar in front of the prepunched hole, or it would use a round to flat copper piece that attaches to one of the holes in the ground bar and is screwed thru a prepunched hole in the back of the panelboard. The instructions should show this and which method is used.

Charles

Still need to do this. I was trying to figure it out, I looked but didnt see any provisions for it. Ill check again.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Still need to do this. I was trying to figure it out, I looked but didnt see any provisions for it. Ill check again.

This is a GE panel. It should have come with a long green, phillips/robinson head, self threading machine screw. The GE accessory part number for this screw is TBS

If you look under the ground bar, there is a gap between it and the back of the panel that will allow you to peak under the bar, you will find a hole in it. If you remove the appropriate screw from the ground bar, you can look straight thru at the hole. The green screw will go in there and thread into the back of the panel. Snug it up but do not crank it down real tight so as to not buckle the back of the panel or the ground bar.

This will bond the ground bar to the panel box so that in the event of a short to the box itself, the box will shunt the current to ground, and not to you if you were to touch it.

Charles

 

[orange02ss]

Found the place for the bonding screw. Thanks to everyone for their help! Power company installed the underground line a couple days ago.