Brushless motors? The new age??

[Automatic Slim]

Changing out brushes is not big deal and always thought the brush motors served a purpose in regards to serviceability, it's not like you have to do it often anywho.

Now it seems like all the rage is brushless motors? I'm skeptic. Like most here, I like to be able to service equipment and the motor is often an expensive part, but changing out brushes is not.

Is this a continued trend of the throwaway society? Sealed joints, etc. "never need lubrication" - my ***.

I recently just purchased a cordless drill (M12 fuel) and it even states "brushless" in raised painted plastic on the back. Seems a little chunky in operation, but lil' dude has some power. I guess when the motor goes, no need to changes the brushes? Big whoop.

Maybe it's time to get rid of the grease gun? LOL


Interested in hearing some thoughts on this topic, before I get tool laden with a bunch of unrepairable **** taking up valuable space.

 

[firebox40dash5]

I've always broken something else long before I had to change brushes in cordless tools. How often, besides said $5 set of brushes, is it even worthwhile to repair a cordless tool that probably only costs $100, give or take?

I love the power and runtime you get from brushless motors. I get days out of a battery with my Fuel impact, rather than probably going through 2 batteries with a regular one, and it's got as much power as a brushed 18V impact. I'm looking at getting an 18V Fuel 3/8 impact, because it's nearly as powerful as many 3/8 air guns. 200 lb. ft. out of a compact-body cordless impact? Yes please!

I want to see a brush less Hackzall... I was running the **** out of mine this weekend, and it was blowing probably 200 degrees out the vents. Curious how much cooler it might run without brushes.

 

[xtremek]

I believe that brushless motors are about 25-30% more efficient than brushed motors. A good brushless motor can be 97% efficient

 

[Automatic Slim]

Here ya' firebox, seems like we are going to be seeing alot more brushless motors and talk is - they are better and more efficient. I'm behind the times, I admit - but researching this concept.

 

[firebox40dash5]

Here ya' firebox, seems like we are going to be seeing alot more brushless motors and talk is - they are better and more efficient. I'm behind the times, I admit - but researching this concept.

Bottom line for me is, there's not a whole lot to go wrong with a brushless motor anyway. There's a controller, a shaft and bearings, some magnets, and windings. Out of those, the bearings, windings, and controller would be the most likely to fail, and a brushed motor has windings and bearings that could fail as well. Plus the windings are stationary on the brushless motor, so it should be even less likely to fail. The controller could fail, but I haven't heard of it happening, and I've been rocking brushless tools for a few years now.

Really, if you've got a cordless tool and it's old enough that you've let the magic smoke out of the motor (and it's out of warranty) what are the odds you'd want to spend much of anything to fix it when it's likely beat to hell and back anyway? I hate throwing away perfectly good stuff too, but that includes money... and I beat the **** out of my cordless tools, plus getting new ones feels so good.

 

[Frosthy]

We in the RC car/truck world jumped to LiPo batteries and Brushless motors almost ten years ago and never looked back. The brushless motors are just much more powerful for a motor of roughly the same size.

When's the last time you changed a starter motor on a hybrid?

 

[Automatic Slim]

FB, concur.

I've only changed out a couple of brushes in some heavy used stuff over the years. Smoke signal, in my case, is usually d/t me being lazy and grabbing the wrong tool - as evidenced by drilling 2 feet through a beam w/ ship auger bit last month, yup - puff the magic dragon on that drywall dewalt drill - needed an oven mitt to handle.

Research sounds promising w/ the brushless design, but never really understood the benefits, so checking behind the "hype" beforehand. As sometimes, it's smoke & mirrors, or worse, b/c service.

i think in this case, brushless has some benefits and the brushed design is likely to go by way of the milkman. Maybe a good time to hit some hard deals on the brushed models during the transition though, esp. when the crossover to corded tools comes to bear. As you stated, I've never had problem w/ brushed motors - but w/ limited use in my first (I'm a virgin) brushless cordless drill, must say the battery is holding a charge better and seems to have more power - which are stated benefits.

 

[Automatic Slim]

Thanks Frosty,

I did not know that:

Brushed motors going wayside like ole' Johnny.

 

[rsanter]

Brushless motors have been around for a long time already.
Many people believe that the brushless motor will last longer than a brush motor as there are fewer wear parts

Bob

 

[theoldwizard1]

Bottom line for me is, there's not a whole lot to go wrong with a brushless motor anyway. There's a controller, a shaft and bearings, some magnets, and windings.

There is some kind of an encoder to tell the controller exactly what position the shaft is in, in order to knows when to turn which set of magnets on and off.

Probably the big breakthrough for brushless motors is low cost controller and drive electronics (MOSFET or IGBT). Also require rare earth magnets, but those have been around for awhile.

 

[purplezr2]

I've always broken something else long before I had to change brushes in cordless tools. How often, besides said $5 set of brushes, is it even worthwhile to repair a cordless tool that probably only costs $100, give or take?

I don't know call me cheap, I would much rather spend a few bucks on brush then buy a new tool.

 

[Jagmandave]

I've found that when the brushes need changing there's usually quite a bit of wear on the commutator too......

Power steering pumps on many cars from the late 90's and early 2000's have this issue terribly, the brushes wear out and you can unexpectedly lose your power steering, sometimes in the middle of a turn.

On the MINI, the motor is difficlut to get out, and when you disassemble it you will find considerable wear on the commutator. I've had decent luck turning them down flat again, but more times than not the dust from the brushes is what's caused the motor to fail and sometimes it'll even lock the armature.

I am all for brushless DC motors.

 

[Stuey]

I wrote a bit about the subject when brushless tools started coming out - http://toolguyd.com/power-tool-brushless-motors/

As others said, it has nothing to do with today's "throwaway society."

Brushless tools are more complex and reliant on micro-circuitry, so there's little that you will be able to service yourself. Still, the benefits outweigh this. You get more power and longer runtime. And some would think that less maintenance and fewer wearable parts would be a plus as well.

 

[firebox40dash5]

Brushless tools are more complex and reliant on micro-circuitry, so there's little that you will be able to service yourself. Still, the benefits outweigh this. You get more power and longer runtime. And some would think that less maintenance and fewer wearable parts would be a plus as well.

That's my thoughts as well. Reminds me of all the motorcycle guys a few years ago when EFI became really common. "WTF is all this technology stuff? Computers? Injectors? I can't service that like my carburetors!" Well, yeah, true enough you probably can't service it. You also almost never NEED to. I owned a bike with 4 carbs, I had to pop the rack of them out probably 5 times and still didn't have them tuned just right. I haven't touched the EFI on my new fuel injected bike in the 2 years I've owned it, and it's 9 years old now.

Not many people complain that they can't replace their points and condenser anymore, do they?

 

[Silberpfeil]

I'm with Frosthy as I'm another one in the RC world.

Brushless and lipo are the best things since sliced bread. Smoother power, more power, longer run times, less maintenance etc. You still for sure need to clean, oil and look after them like any other tool but no where near as much as brushed.

-Jeremy

 

[bonneyman]

Brushless motors have been around for a long time already.
Many people believe that the brushless motor will last longer than a brush motor as there are fewer wear parts

Bob

10-4
GE invented electronically commutated motors (ECM) - no brushes - in 1969. So, the technology has been around for over 40 years. And they are much more efficient, as has been said elsewhere. Then, why has it only been in the last 10-15 years that ECM has become so prominent? Because they're so dang expensive nobody would buy them!
It wasn't until the outsourcing to China became acceptable that costs came down enough to even try selling them. Even so, the costs are still prohibitive.
I don't know about power tool-sized motors. But with HVAC blower motors, the math is unavoidable. If I have a PSC motor that needs replacing, a comparable ECM motor would cost 5-6 times as much! People who got sold a super-high SEER unit (in part due to the ECM) and then need a new motor - and they're out of warranty - have a coronary when told the price!

 

[shoturtle]

Panasonic, Festool, and Bosch have been using them for years. They offer allot more power and will work under water. But as stated, if they need repair it is extremely expensive still. So if you burn one by pushing them past there limit, it will cost you quite a bit.

 

[Mohawk Dave]

too lazy to read all the posts today, sorry. But I know when I was framing day in and out, we carried a handfull of brushes for the Skill 77s. Along with handles, triggers, cords.

If I had to buy a new 77 every time I'd be the opposite of happy. It's an easy service to do. My $0.02.

 

[diesel research]

too lazy to read all the posts today, sorry. But I know when I was framing day in and out, we carried a handfull of brushes for the Skill 77s. Along with handles, triggers, cords.

If I had to buy a new 77 every time I'd be the opposite of happy. It's an easy service to do. My $0.02.

just imagine how much happier you'd be if the skil didnt stop and break down in the first place.

 

[Mohawk Dave]

just imagine how much happier you'd be if the skil didnt stop and break down in the first place.

well, there in, as the Bard would tell us, lies the rub.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Brushless motors are a first cousin of stepper motors. Here is what Wikipdeia says

Brushless motors may be described as stepper motors; however, the term stepper motor tends to be used for motors that are designed specifically to be operated in a mode where they are frequently stopped with the rotor in a defined angular position

 

[mobiledynamics]

I did not read all the responses but let me state my experience

Brushless is lighter, more compact, more power.
IME, combined with a smart battery charging system, power delivery, battery life goes a LONG way in the tool

On the flipside, brushless CAN go bad - just due to the brains. I've been using Brushless drills for at least 6-7 years ! In that time, I have had 2 go bad in less than 6 months, both due to the electronics circuit that drive them.

They have their pros/cons and place in the workfield - whether you're in the field or a carpenter.

I won't say Brushless is overhyped, but every manuf. has to have a new Marketing theme to keep products moving..